Great posts Trasak. I don't have a lot to add, but wanted to throw out some examples from my own experience.
I tend to fall into that Light Hardcore category - when I get into a game, I'll spend 3-4 hours per day on it easily (more on weekends), though occasionally there's a night off. But while leveling is a focus, typically I am more focused on experiencing all the content available. If that content is thin, I want to level up faster so I can see different content. If there's a lot of content at my level, I actually end up wanting to level slower so I can see all the content available to me. In EQ I would level lock via the AA slider, and in EQ2 I would level lock by turning off experience gain altogether, as examples.
So that brings me to my first point - a key component of the time-to-level "equation" needs to be available content. The more content available, the slower leveling can be, although I'm sure there's a floor where making it any slower would just be too much for many players to bear. I hope/think that VR is trying to have a very wide array of content at each level range. It's hard to put a number on it, but realistically I feel like time-to-level should be roughly equivalent to the time to "do" 20-30% or so of the avaialable content for the level. This is based on the fact that content is viable over a range of levels, not just one. So if each level takes you 20-30% of that content, doing all of that content one time should get you 3-4 levels, which is probably enough to open up some new content for you. In theory, anyway.
My second example is pure time. Back in 1999 EQ, I would start new characters, and the pace of leveling went something like the below for me on average. Again, keep in mind playstyle (I'm not always going for the most efficient XP, and I'm spending a lot of time socializing/exploring/camping drops/etc). But hopefully it can give a curve to work from.
1-5 - 1st day
6-10 - 2-3 days
11-15 - 1 week
16-20 - 2 weeks
21-25 - 3 weeks
26-30 - 1 month
31-35 - 2 months
36-40 - 3 months
41-45 - 3 months
46-50 - 4 months
Nephele said:Great posts Trasak. I don't have a lot to add, but wanted to throw out some examples from my own experience.
*snip*
So that brings me to my first point - a key component of the time-to-level "equation" needs to be available content. The more content available, the slower leveling can be, although I'm sure there's a floor where making it any slower would just be too much for many players to bear. I hope/think that VR is trying to have a very wide array of content at each level range. It's hard to put a number on it, but realistically I feel like time-to-level should be roughly equivalent to the time to "do" 20-30% or so of the avaialable content for the level. This is based on the fact that content is viable over a range of levels, not just one. So if each level takes you 20-30% of that content, doing all of that content one time should get you 3-4 levels, which is probably enough to open up some new content for you. In theory, anyway.
*snip*
Thank you for your kind words, all of you who have said so, I tend to thought purge too much and over think things so I am glad something came out as readable.
I do like the idea of 20-33% of the content available in each range needed to actually hit level cap. It would be great if Terminus is actual split into 3-5 “storylines” that you could level up the entire way doing just one of the storylines. Each zone, quest, special material, special environmental challenge and end raid would flow from one to another, from level 1-50. That way replay ability becomes a function of rerunning down a different story line with its own horizontal progression of keys and gearing. There is nothing stopping you from jumping from one story to another on the same character but the design is there to take you all the way.
If designed in this manor expansions could be divided into sequels, extensions of already existing story lines, and new storylines as new worlds come in contact with Terminus. Each new storyline represents another option to level at least from 20-50. Bare in mind though that this represents an absolutely monumentous amount of work on the game designer’s side. I really have no idea where VR is currently at in the world building process. Its possible that each of the playable races already have the beginnings of their own Storyline and one general one for the world but none of them have enough depth to be able to level from 1-50 without interacting with the others. Perhaps a Good, an Evil, and a Neutral storyline could be assembled from what is already constructed or outlined.
And now I really am far afield of the target topic. I claim relevance by siting that I am advocating that the game world contains at a minimum 3 times the amount of content to level from 1-50 distributed along the desired leveling curve.
Trasak said: ... I claim relevance by siting that I am advocating that the game world contains at a minimum 3 times the amount of content to level from 1-50 distributed along the desired leveling curve.
Needing to travel does play in to time to reach max level. If you look at the existing map (which is apparently missing an entire continent??) and presume ~10 level ranges per zone, and increasing difficulty the farther you go away from starting areas, you can make a pretty fair guesstimate of what is where.
Places like the seven locked door, amberfaet, the dead vault, and the burning sanctum seem to be likely candidates for 45+ content. Amberfaet has explicitly been said to be 38-50. I suspect the tower of the reckless magician and tasrin's gaze are likely intended to be comparable, by continent. More than 2 (like lguk/solb) 45+ zones would be great, though, at launch. 4 would be luxurious, for me and mine.
Trasak said:I do like the idea of 20-33% of the content available in each range needed to actually hit level cap. It would be great if Terminus is actual split into 3-5 “storylines” that you could level up the entire way doing just one of the storylines. Each zone, quest, special material, special environmental challenge and end raid would flow from one to another, from level 1-50. That way replay ability becomes a function of rerunning down a different story line with its own horizontal progression of keys and gearing. There is nothing stopping you from jumping from one story to another on the same character but the design is there to take you all the way.
If designed in this manor expansions could be divided into sequels, extensions of already existing story lines, and new storylines as new worlds come in contact with Terminus. Each new storyline represents another option to level at least from 20-50. Bare in mind though that this represents an absolutely monumentous amount of work on the game designer’s side. I really have no idea where VR is currently at in the world building process. Its possible that each of the playable races already have the beginnings of their own Storyline and one general one for the world but none of them have enough depth to be able to level from 1-50 without interacting with the others. Perhaps a Good, an Evil, and a Neutral storyline could be assembled from what is already constructed or outlined.
And now I really am far afield of the target topic. I claim relevance by siting that I am advocating that the game world contains at a minimum 3 times the amount of content to level from 1-50 distributed along the desired leveling curve.
Really kind of hoping to not have such storylines/rails in Pantheon. An overarching storyline for the world is fine and some smaller faction/zone issues the player can take part in, but I don't want to follow some storyline path(s) for my characters like every other MMO out there.
Iksar said:Really kind of hoping to not have such storylines/rails in Pantheon. An overarching storyline for the world is fine and some smaller faction/zone issues the player can take part in, but I don't want to follow some storyline path(s) for my characters like every other MMO out there.
I agree that a story line on rails would be bad. Let me give a better example of what I'm thinking. Lets look at the Velious expansion. It had three factions and a general "Velious" story line. In general the progression in Velious was Coldain -> Giant -> Dragons -> Planes -> Keeper with some open world thrown in. What I am more suggesting is that the Coldain, Giant and Dragon all could have had 3 tiers of armor and a nemesis that you built up to and maybe a 4th progression that was neutral, rather than the progression being jumping from one faction to the next. Additionally having zones focused around all three factions from 35ish-60 so that you could, if you chose to stick with one faction, really live their storyline.
Nothing prevents you from jumping in late to a higher level zone of another storyline but you may not have the faction built up or quests completed to really be involved. There will most likely also be a general sandbox of zones to pick from if you have no interest in any of the story lines.
As far as doing something like every other MMO out there . . . Don't fix what isn't broken? Some the game designs that have made it into "all mmo's" are likely things that just plain work from both a game designing and story writing standpoint. In Skyrim it is fun just to go around and sack random dungeons you find but the things that stick, with at least me, are the overarching storylines that take me from one area to another and involve choices with real consequences.
Trasak said:As far as doing something like every other MMO out there . . . Don't fix what isn't broken? Some the game designs that have made it into "all mmo's" are likely things that just plain work from both a game designing and story writing standpoint. In Skyrim it is fun just to go around and sack random dungeons you find but the things that stick, with at least me, are the overarching storylines that take me from one area to another and involve choices with real consequences.
I guess I'm just the type who doesn't want every/any player to be the "hero" of any real storyline, I'd much prefer everyone just being adventurers of varying skill/accomplishment but relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Player storylines are such a big thing in modern MMOs because they sort of have to be, as they are almost all focused on quest based progression whereas Pantheon is not.
There is also a declaration that racing to max level may not necessarily mean a character is proficient for the content at that level (or something like that). It is entirely possible that there are factors programmed into the game that are undocumented and unannounced that may be a hindrance to those players who raced to max level at the expense of everything else. It isn't too hard to fathom examples. Perhaps one extra stat point every fifth level when someone levels who happens to have a highly favorable faction with one of the playable races. Perhaps not even noticeable the first time around since getting a highly favorable faction with your starting race may be a natural extension of the game such that it is expected for everyone to have that highly favorable faction just by adventuring in and around your starting area for the first 15 or 20 levels. People may be thinking it was just natural to get an extra stat point when they leveled to 15 and not think anything of it.
Then they start getting another extra stat point increase as factions improve. Those that maybe found it exhilarating to max out their factions as opposed to anything else in the game may find that at max level the accumulation of their base stats is 10 or 20 more than those that simply raced to max level. But, that would probably be conceived as an ill-programmed measure since the rewards at max level (end-game) are so disproportionate for those who focused on that aspect of the game as opposed to those who focused on speed to max level as the focus of the game. There would be cries and screams of afoul! The same could be said for attributing a modifier to a weapon or piece of armour according to how long it has been equipped. There would be those folks who don't play that style of game who would be disadvantaged and at the high-end game would cry foul. However, those that were first to max level should also, in theory, have the high end equipment equipped for the longest period of time.
And that, unfortunately, is the one-sided display of pounding the chest that I see. The folks who feel that the speed of leveling should equate to the speed of character progression to an extent that faster is better is stronger is the best and are solely relying on the speed to max level as the only defining characteristic between characters automatically feel that everything else is foul! The automatic response is that they have been penalized as opposed to recognizing that someone else has been rewarded. This isn't crying over spilled milk and this isn't envy, just pointing out that there could be multiple avenues that contribute to a player such that by max level there is a differentiation between players based on the content consumed as necessitated by the resources expended by the developers for said content.
muscoby said:There is also a declaration that racing to max level may not necessarily mean a character is proficient for the content at that level (or something like that). It is entirely possible that there are factors programmed into the game that are undocumented and unannounced that may be a hindrance to those players who raced to max level at the expense of everything else. It isn't too hard to fathom examples. Perhaps one extra stat point every fifth level when someone levels who happens to have a highly favorable faction with one of the playable races. Perhaps not even noticeable the first time around since getting a highly favorable faction with your starting race may be a natural extension of the game such that it is expected for everyone to have that highly favorable faction just by adventuring in and around your starting area for the first 15 or 20 levels. People may be thinking it was just natural to get an extra stat point when they leveled to 15 and not think anything of it.
Then they start getting another extra stat point increase as factions improve. Those that maybe found it exhilarating to max out their factions as opposed to anything else in the game may find that at max level the accumulation of their base stats is 10 or 20 more than those that simply raced to max level. But, that would probably be conceived as an ill-programmed measure since the rewards at max level (end-game) are so disproportionate for those who focused on that aspect of the game as opposed to those who focused on speed to max level as the focus of the game. There would be cries and screams of afoul! The same could be said for attributing a modifier to a weapon or piece of armour according to how long it has been equipped. There would be those folks who don't play that style of game who would be disadvantaged and at the high-end game would cry foul. However, those that were first to max level should also, in theory, have the high end equipment equipped for the longest period of time.
And that, unfortunately, is the one-sided display of pounding the chest that I see. The folks who feel that the speed of leveling should equate to the speed of character progression to an extent that faster is better is stronger is the best and are solely relying on the speed to max level as the only defining characteristic between characters automatically feel that everything else is foul! The automatic response is that they have been penalized as opposed to recognizing that someone else has been rewarded. This isn't crying over spilled milk and this isn't envy, just pointing out that there could be multiple avenues that contribute to a player such that by max level there is a differentiation between players based on the content consumed as necessitated by the resources expended by the developers for said content.
I think what they meant is this ... players will have a lot of things they can work on to become more powerful. Your "level" is only one of them. Beyond leveling you will need to seek out spells ... you will need to cap your different expertise (piercing/slashing/crushing/swimming/safe fall, etc) ... you will need to earn situational gear, and be able to acclimate yourself in certain conditions. The biggest issue I can think of when it comes to this is ... players are still incentivized to reach cap, then circle back and finish anything they have missed, but do so while they are naturally more powerful than they would have been while the content was appropriate.
The "Rites of Passage" is something we haven't really heard much about. Maybe it will be a time sensitive questline? You get the quest at 20, and you have to finish it before level 25 before it disappears forever? Maybe you get a new one every 5 or 10 levels? I don't know how well something like that would sit with players but creating these forced windows of opportunity feels like the only way that could take away from speed leveling being the most optimal path. The faster you get to max level, the faster you can start killing mobs that drop more gold ... the faster you can accumulate high-end resources that are otherwise unattainable. The reason people put so much emphasis on speed leveling is because of the exclusivity.
When you have access to content that 90% of other players do not, and it's also the same content where you can obtain some of the best items/resources ... it makes a TON of sense to try and rush there so that you can play through that content with minimal competition and have as close to a monopoly on the rewards as one could ever see. It will diminish over time which only reinforces the value of getting there first. I have seen the "it's about the journey not the destination" talk a lot. That's just a way for players to say that they care more about the experience of playing than the rewards that can be achieved at the highest end. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it ... it's more of a "stop to smell the roses approach." Good for them ... others will be busy stockpiling their coldsteel reserves.
What matters, in the end, is what makes a person happy. If someone likes to take their time and let the cards fall as they may, that's their perogative. If someone places a high value on in-game wealth, "rushing to max" has to be tempting, at the very least. Whether it's adventuring or crafting, exclusivity has it's perks in an MMO and there is no better way to separate from the pact than to go nuts with a leveling spree.
Perhaps we are asking the question the wrong way then. Maybe what we should be asking is "What level of effort, reward, and time investment would be needed to make each level your character obtains feel like a meaningful accomplishment?"
Serious question. I ask this because I feel like the paradigm shouldn't be "race to the end" for most players (understanding that for some it will always be). Instead, I feel like the ambition should be to get the NEXT level... Whether that is level 12 or level 47.
The mentality of "I beat da game in so many hours" has been prevalent now for a decade or so. The same people sitting there at 50 waiting for everyone else to catch up AND complaining that there's nothing to do. There's plenty to do if you look around you, become aware that there is a game world that exists around you, and that you bypassed everything in this mindless rush to level cap. I watched this happen on Agnarr...but I've seen it in other games too.
I think leveling should take a REALLY long time so people would be scared of the xp lost in the death penalty. I also think the death penalty should be more punishing the higher the level of the player is. For example a level 40 player would lose an entire level when he/she dies and a max level player would lose 2.5 levels...
Maybe they should add a type of wraith mob that sucks the knowledge out of the player ''the xp'' and the only way you would deal with it is to either run or have specific enchantments or spells.
People might say that if the leveling takes so long then they would get bored since it would take them a long time to get new abilities, but according to the FAQ players would not be relying primarily on leveling to get new spells/abilities but they would be able to find them while exploring.
I don't know I'm just sadistic.
CanadinaXegony said:The mentality of "I beat da game in so many hours" has been prevalent now for a decade or so. The same people sitting there at 50 waiting for everyone else to catch up AND complaining that there's nothing to do. There's plenty to do if you look around you, become aware that there is a game world that exists around you, and that you bypassed everything in this mindless rush to level cap. I watched this happen on Agnarr...but I've seen it in other games too.
That's typically because of game design, though, is it not? When the game world and progression system funnels you through a series of monotonous quests and activities that don't serve any significant purpose beyond XP and easily replaceable gear upgrades, why would players be inclined to take their time through that? Especially considering the typical design of a game being centered around max level activities to retain the playerbase. If a game is designed where progression and low/med level activities are just as important and engaging as your typical end-game activities, that is when players will step back and take a different approach. I think the onus is more on the game design to dictate player behavior in that regard, and arbitrarily increasing the length of time it takes to hit max level is not going to, in itself, entice players to not blast through the progression to reach max.
CanadinaXegony said:The mentality of "I beat da game in so many hours" has been prevalent now for a decade or so. The same people sitting there at 50 waiting for everyone else to catch up AND complaining that there's nothing to do. There's plenty to do if you look around you, become aware that there is a game world that exists around you, and that you bypassed everything in this mindless rush to level cap. I watched this happen on Agnarr...but I've seen it in other games too.
I agree. Back in 1999, playing EQ had a novilty quality about it. Just the fact you could interact with other human players made the experience awesome. The realization that the humans removed the static nature of single player games was a big step. Now the world was dynamic through the players.
Now the facination of being online with other players is taken for granted. Now the obcession is race to the end and wait. The fun is in the adventure; in helping noobs and friends, chilling out and socializing, teaching players on how to play their clasees better. Giving a Noob a free item. If I find some players like this in Pantheon I will be playing a long time.
I see leveling as a result of me having fun and experiencing the game world, not as the goal of me playing the game. Of course I like leveling and getting new abilites, but jouney is the fun part.
Nevron said:CanadinaXegony said:The mentality of "I beat da game in so many hours" has been prevalent now for a decade or so. The same people sitting there at 50 waiting for everyone else to catch up AND complaining that there's nothing to do. There's plenty to do if you look around you, become aware that there is a game world that exists around you, and that you bypassed everything in this mindless rush to level cap. I watched this happen on Agnarr...but I've seen it in other games too.
That's typically because of game design, though, is it not? When the game world and progression system funnels you through a series of monotonous quests and activities that don't serve any significant purpose beyond XP and easily replaceable gear upgrades, why would players be inclined to take their time through that? Especially considering the typical design of a game being centered around max level activities to retain the playerbase. If a game is designed where progression and low/med level activities are just as important and engaging as your typical end-game activities, that is when players will step back and take a different approach. I think the onus is more on the game design to dictate player behavior in that regard, and arbitrarily increasing the length of time it takes to hit max level is not going to, in itself, entice players to not blast through the progression to reach max.
I think game design is the big reason and part of that is slowing down leveling. Take WoW and most post-WoW mmos for example. Where do you ever feel like there is other players to play with, for me it was only in instances. Instances were few and far between, 5-10 levels few and far between. Generally you had 1 maybe 2 instances where you could enjoy playing with others in any meaningful close to required way and runing from quest to quest didn't give any enjoyment along with outside of instances most good items besides quest rewards were just random gear that could drop from almost any mob in that level range. Until you hit max level where the MMO begins and you regularly need to group with players to advance then you could finally have a choice of where to go. Also hurts that in most of those types of MMO you quickly out-level any gear that you find, gear that was useful 3-4 hours ago is now something you are looking to replace.
By slowing things down and making grouping important outside of dungeons and by making grouping the fastest way of leveling, you atleast for me reduce the need to rush to max level. By ensuring that content is fun and varied before max level, that gear obtained can be important for more than a few hours you also increase my desire to do crafting before max level because the things I spent time gathering to craft the gear and use it actually felt like they had meaning other than a small power boost for a few hours. Which means that I get to experience crafting before max level. So slowing things down will help to entice player not to blast through progression.
Nedrith said:I think game design is the big reason and part of that is slowing down leveling. Take WoW and most post-WoW mmos for example. Where do you ever feel like there is other players to play with, for me it was only in instances. Instances were few and far between, 5-10 levels few and far between. Generally you had 1 maybe 2 instances where you could enjoy playing with others in any meaningful close to required way and runing from quest to quest didn't give any enjoyment along with outside of instances most good items besides quest rewards were just random gear that could drop from almost any mob in that level range. Until you hit max level where the MMO begins and you regularly need to group with players to advance then you could finally have a choice of where to go. Also hurts that in most of those types of MMO you quickly out-level any gear that you find, gear that was useful 3-4 hours ago is now something you are looking to replace.
By slowing things down and making grouping important outside of dungeons and by making grouping the fastest way of leveling, you atleast for me reduce the need to rush to max level. By ensuring that content is fun and varied before max level, that gear obtained can be important for more than a few hours you also increase my desire to do crafting before max level because the things I spent time gathering to craft the gear and use it actually felt like they had meaning other than a small power boost for a few hours. Which means that I get to experience crafting before max level. So slowing things down will help to entice player not to blast through progression.
Well said. I'm just against arbitrarily slowing down leveling just for the sake of slowing it down without a meaningful reason, just to try and prevent players from rushing to max. One of the biggest factors in why people rush to max is because in most MMOs these days, the primary journey treadmill doesn't start until max. If design decisions are made that prevent "end-game" activities from being drastically different from the leveling journey, people might be more inclined to not rush. Another factor in that would be that the equipment (etc) you receive throughout the progression process isn't made obsolete and completely overshadowed by what you start obtaining at max level. If a max level weapon is now magically twice as good as a weapon from a mere one level below it, then that makes extra time spent prior to max feel like wasted time to some.
after readong through mnay page son this thread I have come to a conclussion about myself and leveling.
For me it truely is the little things, the skills ups, the occasional cool loot(not even uber loot), the level dings. This must be why I typcally increase my alt playing time when I reach arund 40 in games, I suppose because those little rewards tend to come slower the higher up you get. It's my drug of choice, the little high I get when I experience progression.
Typically if I have a bad day at work, I want o play my alt, when I have a good day I tend to play my main. I think it's those little rewards cheer me up.
Darthic said:I think leveling should take a REALLY long time so people would be scared of the xp lost in the death penalty. I also think the death penalty should be more punishing the higher the level of the player is. For example a level 40 player would lose an entire level when he/she dies and a max level player would lose 2.5 levels...
Maybe they should add a type of wraith mob that sucks the knowledge out of the player ''the xp'' and the only way you would deal with it is to either run or have specific enchantments or spells.
People might say that if the leveling takes so long then they would get bored since it would take them a long time to get new abilities, but according to the FAQ players would not be relying primarily on leveling to get new spells/abilities but they would be able to find them while exploring.
I don't know I'm just sadistic.
2.5 levels is way too extreme. considering the leveling time we want, you are talking about 20 hours lost whenever you die. IMO the death penalty servers multiple purposes:
1: A penalty for stupid gaming
2. A prevention of the die to teleport
3: Most importantly, a reason for every player to try their hardest to live
You don't need a extreme dealth penalty for any of them. A death penalty also has to be lenient enough to allow for random exploration, to allow people to take some risks and not feel that extremely safe gameplay is the only way to play. While taking those risks however the player should still feel that they should be doing their utmost to survive. That the potion that cost them a decent amount isn't worth saving over their own life.
I would say max level loss would be capped at 25-50% of a level. even then your talking about 2-6 hours worth of leveling.