Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

How many days do you think it should take to reach max?

    • 123 posts
    January 18, 2018 12:02 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Khendall said:

    Challenge is not grind.

    Imposing grind is not increasing challenge, it's only imposing a selection on playtime ... and mostly a way for high playtime players to eliminate the concurence of lower playtime players on high end content.

    Challenge is risk/try/explore, not grind, grind is not risky, it's just using safe ways to maximize xp gain returning on same spots again and again and again.

    In EQ people did naturally tend to take less risk until they reached max level, that's just a fact. The more grind you'll impose to reach max level, the less risk people will take ... and the less challenging the game will be.

    If you want challenge, add more horizontal progression based on exploration, people will take more risk, explore new areas. Challenge is being courageous enough to try new things, not to ever-repeat what we already mastered.

    Challenge doesn't mean Grind, but Grind can mean Challenge. Up to there it's a matter of personal opinion. Yours lay in the field of "Challenge is doing blind tests", which is debatable, but is far from beeing an absolute truth.

    It's true it's a matter of personal opinion, and I disagree with the fact grind can mean challenge, but it may be because my vision of challenge is not exactly "Challenge is doing blind test" but more "Challenge is doing difficult things you never did before, and do it your own way". So I would say that grind begins when challenge ends, at the first repetition :).

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I feel your idea on the matter is a bit flawed and cornered by a feeling of excessive competition, quoting specifically :

     

    Khendall said:

    Imposing grind is not increasing challenge, it's only imposing a selection on playtime ... and mostly a way for high playtime players to eliminate the concurence of lower playtime players on high end content.

    This is only relevant if "High end content" is a thing of importance. We do not know yet if Pantheon will yield to some sort of "Velious era" where raiding is everything and competition for 1 week respawns is heavy. Clearly I took ten time less pleasure in games where "high end content" was the goal, than games where I had a few characters spread in level and had freely the will to log one and play a bit with him, advancing quests or experience, withouth feeling the urge of beeing max level to get into "serious business".

    While beeing max level should be an aim, it should not be the only purpose of the game, neither feeling worthless (like in GW2).

    It's true I care about excessive competition, cause I saw it before in EQ ... and its was really not so cool. I read also much about P99, and it's not so cool too, seems even worse. I agree that being max level should be an aim, not the only purpose, but if the leveling effect is managed like in any other game based on levels (basically if being 2-3 levels under someone makes you nearly useless compared to him), then max level will unfortunately be the purpose anyway.

     

    • 37 posts
    January 18, 2018 12:26 PM PST

    you can "grind" exp while moving to different & new places, it's just depend of how many zones/dungeons there are for a specific level range. in eq1 there were many different places/dungeons where you could go at the same level, that was not pure grinding but discovering new places, while getting exp, new loots, new fun, new monsters to fight, new traps to disarm, new dungeons to explore etc.

     

    for me grinding is something like putting a group together, like in giant mountain aera in eq1 and chain pulling cocatrix for hours to get exp, that's pure grinding, i did it, i enjoyed it, it's just a matter of taste, at the same time i also did tons of different dungeons, went to tons of different places for exp, exploring, having lot of fun. we should have the choice of either doing pure grinding or doing exp while doing fresh stuff, that is when a huge and varied world matters, EQ1 did that great and i hope Pantheon will do that great also.

    • 60 posts
    January 18, 2018 12:52 PM PST

    Trasak said:

    Defector said: 

    All I did in EQ was xp, raid, and hunt down the best gear from enemies and quests.. if max level took 250 hrs, then maxing my characters gear took an additional 5,000 hours..

     

    From a game production standpoint this is actually kind of a failure.  It means that 5% of your game time was spent on the content created for levels 1-(Max level -1) and 95% was spent on the max level content.  For your game time to have the same amount of variations at max level as you did while leveling you would need 19 max level zones for every zone under max level.  This also means that working on leveling zones has 5% of the return on development man hours as max level zones do.

    The solution to this is to build the game in such a way as to make 95% of the zones relevant at max level or honestly make the game only one level which you sort of have anyway if you spend 95% of your play time at max level.  The third option is my logarithmic power curve soap box and a brutal leveling curve which makes max level VERY difficult to reach but also not required to participate in the “end game” zones.

    Almost sounds like your assuming the '5,000' hours spent once I got max level was only spent in raid/high end zones..  that is an exaggeration of the truth... Id give EQ a 4 out of 10 rating with regards to 'old zones becoming obsolete' once a toon reaches max level.  4 out of 10 is bad, but not the failure you presume from my quoted statement.  Actually, if you break down the '5,000' hours.. 'maxing gear' required hundreds of hours camping or raiding OLD content to attain old treasures with modern usefulness like snare, DoT, pulling, proc mod, or buff clickies.. or BiC/epic type quests.. or key farming.  I did a good job exploring the 'missed' zones in EQ because there was content for a lvl capped toon who really wanted to max.  I'm sure PRotF will do even better in this regards thanks to this community input.  Going back to my quoted statement, I was making the point that even without tradeskilling or leveling alt characters I was constantly busy even after attaining max level.

    People will inevitabley put max level on a pedestal, and that will make the e-pen people skip everything and powerplay to attain max level before they 'explore'.. its just going to happen.. people will get max level faster than expected and its going to make others who play more 'exploratory' feel left behind.  I argue people will feel even more left behind if its takes ages between dings.  Opposed to quests, leveling your character provides a special kind of feeling that your progressing in the game.. and thats a needed feeling, not good if its only a once in 100 hours feeling.   An opinion, not fact ;)


    This post was edited by Defector at January 18, 2018 12:53 PM PST
    • 120 posts
    January 18, 2018 1:32 PM PST

    I think a lot of us missed the point in this thread. How long should it take to hit max level? The real question is why should hitting max level be important? It sounds to me based on a lot of what I have seen that the Pantheon team is deemphasizing max level. In my mind a player should level up passively because their goals have nothing to do with hitting max level, but rather have to do with building your character in other ways. What is more important; grinding for the next level or doing whatever it takes to get that spell you need so that you can run a certain dungeon and get a specific piece of equipment that will allow you to play your character in a different way or tackle different content and so on. You level up passively as you go, but you build your character actively, so to speak, and not just by grinding xp.

    Also, I think I remember in one of the streams Brad or one of the dev's mentioned that they are designing the game so that being max level will not necessarily make someone useful. You might get power leveld to max level very quickly and be totally unprepared to do any end game content because you failed to build your character in all of the other important aspects of the game. Remember that this is going to be totally non-linear compared to just about every other MMO on the market, so expect a pretty extreme departure from that common MMO theme of "the game doesn't start until max level".

     

     

    • 1714 posts
    January 18, 2018 1:35 PM PST

    Xbachs said:

    It sounds to me based on a lot of what I have seen that the Pantheon team is deemphasizing max level. 

     

     

    Call it semantics, but I disagree. Max level and raiding will be a huge part of the game, and emphasized. Their goal is to scale horitonzally providing deep, quality content that doesn't require hitting the next level. Things like crafting and other rewards the game provides outside of being uber. But I'd make no mistake, max level is going to be a huge part of the game. 

    • 2756 posts
    January 18, 2018 1:59 PM PST

    How did I miss this thread?

    Or maybe I didn't and I've already commented.... Hmm I'm gonna do it again if that's the case....

    A long, long time, is my answer!  I'm currently playing Battlefield 1 a lot (and doing the YouTube thing) and given that that is a much less 'sophisticated' game than pretty much any MMORPG and I have still managed to put in about 1400 hours (which is 58+ days), I would say I'd like Pantheon to keep me going for *much* longer than an FPS.

    100? 200? I'm sure I remember playing my cleric in EQ and getting to the point of 50+ person dragon raids after years and still having more to do.  I didn't have high level alts, either.

    I want Pants to have me playing for years.

    I would even be ok with some kind of diminishing returns on XP if you play a ridiculous amount of hours in a day/week (ie. if you have several (paid?) people use the same account in order to rush through, or indeed, if you just play an unhealthy amount of games, like me!).

    Obviously the best way to keep people interested is to have more and more content, but one thing I've always hated is if I 'outlevel' content before I've seen it.

    Many many MMORPGs in the past few years, if you actually carefully explore an area and try to do everything there is to do (quests, etc) you become too high level for that content to be a challenge.

    Sometimes EQ could have you grinding in one place for a while or even backtrack and practice in order to be able to cope with your next challenge.  I much prefer that to feeling like no matter what new stuff you find to do you've already outgrown it.

    EDIT: I just realised I spoke about max level as if it's The End. I have to say, I do prefer the journey to the destination, often.  For me, much of RPGs is about the growth of my character and the best part of that is usually before max level.

    I do hope there is a continued progression system of some sort (maybe the progeny system or some alternative advancement stuff), but I will also be making alts - I do that much more now than I did in EQ days.

    Even so, I'd like max level to take a *long* time and for Pantheons main emphasis to *not* be end-game.


    This post was edited by disposalist at January 18, 2018 2:06 PM PST
    • 120 posts
    January 18, 2018 2:02 PM PST

    Krixus said:

    Xbachs said:

    It sounds to me based on a lot of what I have seen that the Pantheon team is deemphasizing max level. 

     

     But I'd make no mistake, max level is going to be a huge part of the game. 

     

    I wouldn't disagree entirely. We are talking about a game that, with any luck, will have a 15+ year lifespan. Eventually, as time goes by and more and more people organically hit max level there will absolutely need to be things to continue to keep them interested. They will 100% have content for super hardcore raiders like the FoH guys, but the dev's have made it clear that creating new content for players will be about emphasizing expanding the game horizontally, not just adding 5 levels to grind through before you go back to grinding dungeons for gear. In comparison to other contemporary MMO's PRotF will have significantly less emphasis on hitting max level, which doesn't mean there will be nothing to do at max level, only that the dev's want to focus on the journey, not the destination. What I would like is if in PRotF the things you do before max level actually matter when you get there. If you think about it, in other MMO's what you do before max level doesn't effect you at all, in a lot of cases it is just empty content designed to consume time. A lot of games even offer max level characters and expedited leveling and so on because the game doesnt even start until max level - this is what they are trying to avoid, creating a game were hitting max level as quickly as possible is your entire focus.

    • 217 posts
    January 18, 2018 3:55 PM PST

    I think... just play the game, enjoy the content, explore, and gain levels at a decent pace.  A pace thats meaningful and not terribly painful.  Racing to max level is just dumb in my opinion because theres gonna be so much content missed by just being pevel focussed.

    • 258 posts
    January 18, 2018 6:50 PM PST

    I plan to play Pantheon for 5-10+ years or however long Pantheon is around, so I personally want leveling to initially take a significant amount of time. Don't care in the slightest if it takes 50-100 days of online time to reach max level, though most people would certainly consider that extreme. But if people are hitting max level in the first month--regardless of how hey they neckbeard or how well they've pre-planned their XP strategy before release--I will be pretty disappointed. 2-3 months seems more resonable to me for hardcore players. 3-6 months for more casual players.

    I'm sure there are plenty of people who will disagree with me. That's fine. But I'll enjoy every minute of the journey regardless of how long it might take.

    Just my 2 copperz.

    • 1860 posts
    January 18, 2018 7:09 PM PST

    vigilantee13 said:

     Racing to max level is just dumb in my opinion because theres gonna be so much content missed by just being level focussed.

    Not really, many will just restart by participating in the progeny system.

    • 258 posts
    January 18, 2018 7:16 PM PST

    philo said:

    vigilantee13 said:

     Racing to max level is just dumb in my opinion because theres gonna be so much content missed by just being level focussed.

    Not really, many will just restart by participating in the progeny system.



    For the moment, we don't know much about how the Progeny system will work or if it will be something most people will utilize, or at what point in the game people will utilize it. There is a hefty thread regarding the Progeny system and it seems that many people have different opinions as to how it could/should operate.

    • 1860 posts
    January 18, 2018 7:25 PM PST

    Kaen said:

    philo said:

    vigilantee13 said:

     Racing to max level is just dumb in my opinion because theres gonna be so much content missed by just being level focussed.

    Not really, many will just restart by participating in the progeny system.



    For the moment, we don't know much about how the Progeny system will work or if it will be something most people will utilize, or at what point in the game people will utilize it. There is a hefty thread regarding the Progeny system and it seems that many people have different opinions as to how it could/should operate.

    Sure, though it isn't a new idea.  If you have played other games with a similar system you have to assume there will be similarities.  More people are probably familiar with AAs?  Like AAs, if you play long enough, it's a safe assumption that most people will take part in the progeny system to some extent.

    ...granted, that "long enough" might have to be multiple years...and that is also assuming the rewards are balanced in a way that incentivize participating in the system.  It is a lot of assumptions...and you know what they say...

    I doubt it will by completely different from other games...I mean, it can't be.  You restart in order to gain some minor benefit so that it extends the length of available content (to put it very simply, there are other benefits but we don't need to get into that).  I think we should all understand the reasoning behind such a system at least.

    edit: there is a lot of misunderstanding in that progeny thread from people who don't have any experience with these type of systems. 


    This post was edited by philo at January 18, 2018 7:33 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 19, 2018 3:34 AM PST

    I played FFXI.  They didn't call it progeny, or remort, but they had a system that accomplished all of the same goals that have been associated with progeny.  I hope to see a system very similar to that as it's something I do have experience with, and is one of my favorite MMO mechanics all-time.

    • 801 posts
    January 19, 2018 4:22 AM PST

    1 full year.... No less for agressive players, and the rest 2 years. But would take a team of probally 600 devs to bring content like that to most of this player base. Given the new generation play style there isnt enough Xbox games available.

     

    This is why i want a smaller game, then some AAA EA games to give us 1kmx1km game play.

    • 1714 posts
    January 19, 2018 7:12 AM PST

    vigilantee13 said:

      Racing to max level is just dumb in my opinion because theres gonna be so much content missed by just being pevel focussed.

    Gaining levels exposes you to more content, not less. I spent DAAAAAYS in EQ running around solo at level 50 before Kunark in Sol A and Permafrost and Runnyeye and Cazic Thule and Upper Guk, etc, etc. 

    • 123 posts
    January 19, 2018 10:36 AM PST

    Xbachs said:

    I wouldn't disagree entirely. We are talking about a game that, with any luck, will have a 15+ year lifespan. Eventually, as time goes by and more and more people organically hit max level there will absolutely need to be things to continue to keep them interested. They will 100% have content for super hardcore raiders like the FoH guys, but the dev's have made it clear that creating new content for players will be about emphasizing expanding the game horizontally, not just adding 5 levels to grind through before you go back to grinding dungeons for gear. In comparison to other contemporary MMO's PRotF will have significantly less emphasis on hitting max level, which doesn't mean there will be nothing to do at max level, only that the dev's want to focus on the journey, not the destination. What I would like is if in PRotF the things you do before max level actually matter when you get there.

    Everyday I light a candle and address a prayer to Saint Kilsin for VR succeeding in making this a reality !
     
    I would say it all depends on how leveling is managed from character efficiency point of view. In EQ I played a tank, I did rush to max level mainly for one reason : one level difference was significant for tanking efficiency (when compared to the mob level), 2 levels difference was important, 3 levels was huge, 4+ was nearly unbearable. Lvl 60 tank in Sebilis, no problem to get a group, lvl 59 was ok ... lvl 58 people were beginning to ask for your stuff, nb of hps etc ... lvl 57 clerics were cursing you, considering you were a satanic mana sink. DPS had a little the same problem, the level difference was an important dps parameter, even if it was less vital than for tanks. Healers did not have any problem, lvl 55 clerics were ok in Sebilis. Shamans and druids, it was not the same kind of consideration, the overpower of CH was a major reason for clerics being the very first choice for healing, but they had other assets.
     
    If levels works like this in Pantheon, then people will rush to max level, especially classes for which the level directly impact the overall efficiency. It's true that it is possible to progress and level by taking risks, exploring, etc ... it's true, but it's not efficient and it takes much more time cause the time you spend in traveling, searching for new hunting grounds, CR after an unfortunate try on a boss/pull you did not know/manage is time you did not spend in chain killing for xp.
     
    In my mind, level is just one axe of progression among others, it means you're good at maximizing xp grind ... ok, but other axes have to be found to cover all the aspects of the game like exploration. Here is an example of concepts that could help :
     
    Creating categories of mobs and managing combat experience of the player against them. Example applied to frogs in a specific zone like old Seb :
    - first time you kill a Frog, you get a small discovery bonus xp
    - first time you kill a different Frog boss, you get a important discovery bonus xp, and a permanent bonus against the Frogs
    - when you killed 100 Frogs, you obtain a first lvl of knowledge that gives you a permanent bonus against the Frogs
    - when you killed 300 Frogs, you obtain a second lvl of knowledge, then a third at 500, etc ...
    - when you killed 1000 Frogs, you obtain a mastery at froglock killing, a bonus, BUT as you are considered a master Frog slayer, for the next 500 frogs you'll kill, XP will only be 50%
    - when you killed 1500 Frogs, XP will only be 25% for the next ones, cause you have just to smile to a frog for it to die from heart attack ==> no challenge
    - there also could be bonuses when reaching some places in the zones, or find specific items hidden around
    - mastering categories could be an input for perception system to unlock specific quests, or validate quest steps
    - the dealt perma bonuses could be fighting bonuses, but not necessarily, could be harvesting bonuses, drop bonuses, etc ... let's be creative, titles could also be added
     
    (pls do consider the concept, not the numbers)
     
    That would slow the XP gain for guys that overcamp the same spots, and make the exploration and travel more attractive. Moreover, that would also make globaly the progression harder and harder as the player explored the world, and that should suits well to the "fifty shades of grind" guys that love pain and suffering :p.
     
    • 429 posts
    January 19, 2018 11:10 AM PST

    Simple answer however long it take YOU to max it :) some do it in weeks some in months some even do it in years , Depends on the player depends on time depends on lots of things :) Simple answer :)

    • 2752 posts
    January 19, 2018 11:19 AM PST

    Khendall said:

     
    That would slow the XP gain for guys that overcamp the same spots, and make the exploration and travel more attractive. Moreover, that would also make globaly the progression harder and harder as the player explored the world, and that should suits well to the "fifty shades of grind" guys that love pain and suffering :p.
     

    Systems that try to force players into a certain playstyle suck. If people want to camp in one spot let them, if people want to travel and kill in different places then good for them too. I'd hate to be forced to be a world traveler to level up efficiently and it would limit my desire to level alts as a system like that leads to extremely similar gameplay to the quest hubs of modern MMOs, quests (kills/exp efficiency in this case) lead you to different areas until you've seen most of a zone then move on to the next. If all characters level in nearly the same way it gets very stale, compared to camping specific areas in classic EQ where I didn't level any of my characters the same way or in the same places until the later level dungeons. 

    • 132 posts
    January 19, 2018 11:29 AM PST
    I hope 80 days or so minimum i prefer slow leveling as it is more rewarding. I hope alot of hard achievements will exist to keep giving players active things to do.

    I hope their will be plenty to do until a expansion comes.

    Many mmos launch goes crazy they spend alot of time fixing bugs which is understandible. Which makes the first expansion usually take much longer. So i hope we have enough content incase unforseeable events take place.

    Wows Warlords taught the gaming industry its a bad idea to go years without a decent sized patch.

    The last thing we want is everyone maxed getting bored and then waiting a year for a new update. I hope content stays fresh and exciting.
    • 123 posts
    January 19, 2018 11:40 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Khendall said:

     
    That would slow the XP gain for guys that overcamp the same spots, and make the exploration and travel more attractive. Moreover, that would also make globaly the progression harder and harder as the player explored the world, and that should suits well to the "fifty shades of grind" guys that love pain and suffering :p.
     

    Systems that try to force players into a certain playstyle suck. If people want to camp in one spot let them, if people want to travel and kill in different places then good for them too. I'd hate to be forced to be a world traveler to level up efficiently and it would limit my desire to level alts as a system like that leads to extremely similar gameplay to the quest hubs of modern MMOs, quests (kills/exp efficiency in this case) lead you to different areas until you've seen most of a zone then move on to the next. If all characters level in nearly the same way it gets very stale, compared to camping specific areas in classic EQ where I didn't level any of my characters the same way or in the same places until the later level dungeons. 

    Ok, then remove the xp decreasing points.

    It's very exagerated saying it's extremely similar to quest hubs, it involves exploration, not talking to NPC with a mark over the head, there is no golden path or mark on a map to hold your hand to the solution, and nobody is forced to do it, it is not a blocker like keys are for example, you can just make the choice not to do it and continue playing your way.

    • 120 posts
    January 19, 2018 12:04 PM PST

    Maybe we are asking the wrong question. Maybe we should ask "How long should it take to be max level AND be useful?" If a player wants to follow a leveling guide and grind the easiest, highest xp mobs all the way to max level, then that is fine. Maybe it only takes him 30 days played, but even though he is max level he doesnt have the right sets of gear, or the right acclimations, or the right keys, or the right faction, or the right spells, etc. to be of any real use in the max level content. He now has to go back and accomplish all of those things, but instead of being able to multi task and get XP and work on other aspects of the character at the same time, because he is max level the XP is wasted. It takes him another 20 days played at max level, for a total of 50 days played, before he is useful in max level content. On the other hand, someone who multi tasks and focusses on building their characters other dimensions while soaking up the XP along the way might only take 50 days played to get to max level and be useful. Just a thought.


    This post was edited by Xbachs at January 19, 2018 12:06 PM PST
    • 3016 posts
    January 19, 2018 12:05 PM PST

    Liav said:

    It doesn't matter how many paragraphs people write about how "it's about the journey, not the destination". There exists a subset of players who view the game as a race, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop that short of daily xp caps or some other draconian method of stifling natural progression.

    It is necessary to discuss how long it will take. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to stay on topic with this.

    Then let them..not my problem.   They'll hit level cap..five minutes of fame, do some raiding and move on,  because that's how they play.   Just as soon as the next new "shiny" releases. :)  Meantime I'll be finding out everything I can find out about my new home world..Pantheon and socializing, crafting, doing Perception quests, epic quests, maybe even Progeny.  I'll be around for a lonnnnnnng, long time. :D

    That should take a few years..(FOR ME ..) 

    • 87 posts
    January 21, 2018 2:10 AM PST

    I want a long and memory full journey like

    1000+ corpseruns

    grit my teeth for that afk ogre infront of bank

    cry my guts out because someone made a train of mobs right over my party who was almost to the goal

    camping for 15hrs before a rare mob spawned and who dident drop what i was after

    considering starting real life woodo just to regain exp i lost..

    knock my head when someone "nice gives my a load of copper" and realise i cant move an inch..

    selling some stuff i dont reqognised to vendor and later discovered was worth 50+ plat

    things like that will make the goal just to max the lvl worth it =)