After reading this topic and taking time to ruminate over it I came up with this conclusion.
It will take as long as it takes 8)
I have never been a speed player am quite content to kick back with some tunes and explore. I watched people across a slew of games race to the finish then quit till there was new content.
Luckily I usually make likeminded friends in a game, and also the friend that has healed my tanks across countless games is of the same mindset. I see it as enjoying a good meal in great company, savouring every single bite, respecting the time, skill and overall effort of the chef. Reading a book is another example. I take my time and try to appreciate the skill of the author, yes you could read Romeo and Juliet in a day, and people have. But personally, I want to lose myself in the language. I want to lose myself in Pantheon, and smell the roses, as long as they don't kick 8)
But this is just my take on it. At the end of the day, we all play in a way that gives us the most enjoyment. I am not going to point a finger and say they play wrong.
It's all subjective.
I am pretty much in agreement with OP. That would mean that at 4 hours a day it would take 300 real days to make max. Some people will get there faster because they can play more than 4 hours a day and thats fine. I personally get in 4 hours or so during weekdays, then marathon on weekends.
I would love to see even the most hard core addict still take a solid real life 6 months to get max.
I havent seen anyone bring up level exp scaling. some people say a week to level, some people have said a month, and other examples, but in reality, the lower levels should be faster to level through, pushing people to the first raid or dungeon content. as we progress, i see levels taking more time, and at end game, i think levels should be extremely hard to gain. this is why i loved the Lineage 2 structure, they did so many things right. (or it was my first mmo and im extremely biased as to what i want in a mmorpg =D) You may hit 76 and get your 3rd class change done when the top players/guilds are in the 78 to 80 range, but you could still do things with them and even compete pvp wise, unlike some games where when you are outleveled you effectively do NO meaningful damage to higher leveled players. i hate that concept. the skills at levels 77,78,79 were what made your character more powerful and the time invested to get those skills was all the reason to stay up super late when you had a good aoe group or had full buffs from a high level friend in party. The higher levels did have a % increase in damage/defense, but nothing like most newer mmos. 2 well geared 70 characters could take down a 76-78 with some luck and good strategy and it made it fun to play even when you werent at the tip top levels.
This discussion is one of the main reasons that I favor a Logarithmic power curve over the exponential power curve that we are used to in EQ and WoW and many other games.
If say the first 30 levels is when you gained the greater majority of your HP and base DPS (80% of max) and the second 20 levels is when you gained all the situational powers that were required to survive in max level areas and the final 20% of character power. Then the levels where you can contribute meaningfully to end game play increases from the final 5 levels to the final 20 levels. Getting to level 30 and acquiring the appropriate gear for that level could take say 120 hours played (4 per level) but getting to maximum level and gear could take an additional 2000 hours (100 hours per level).
During those first 30 levels you would need to be leveling in appropriate areas and with people of similar level as power level changes quickly, but the greater majority of the character play time could be spent grouping with anyone in the second tier of the game. Now I am not saying a group of lvl 35s could go level in a lvl 45 zone, at level 35 they would lack things like AoE taunts, snaring poisons, ice walls, healing light circles, and Stunning fist. That being said a group of 45s could bring one 35 along with them without jeopardizing the group and without wasting the group slot as the lvl 35 character could still do 90% of a lvl 45 character.
This system focuses on differentiating the higher levels by skill and finesse rather than by raw brute force. The added benefit of a log power system is that the time intensive process of developing zones and dungeons will have a much greater return per man hour when creating a lvl 30-50 zone. I know people like big flashy numbers but what we really want is good, fun, rewarding game play and I for one am not interested in playing a Korean action MMO so changing to a system where 90% of the game world is a challenge at maximum level that requires a proper group is very attractive to me.
Trasak
Jazznblues said:Jazznblues wins the thread!After reading this topic and taking time to ruminate over it I came up with this conclusion.
It will take as long as it takes 8)
I have never been a speed player am quite content to kick back with some tunes and explore. I watched people across a slew of games race to the finish then quit till there was new content.
Luckily I usually make likeminded friends in a game, and also the friend that has healed my tanks across countless games is of the same mindset. I see it as enjoying a good meal in great company, savouring every single bite, respecting the time, skill and overall effort of the chef. Reading a book is another example. I take my time and try to appreciate the skill of the author, yes you could read Romeo and Juliet in a day, and people have. But personally, I want to lose myself in the language. I want to lose myself in Pantheon, and smell the roses, as long as they don't kick 8)
But this is just my take on it. At the end of the day, we all play in a way that gives us the most enjoyment. I am not going to point a finger and say they play wrong.
It's all subjective.
I plan to play a Wizard as a main, and I assume the Wizard to have Teleports. Let me to join up with this meat shield, healer crew of yours to keep me alive, and I'll see to it the lack of fast travel in pantheon never causes you any grief... together we'll see the world.
Liav said:Wow, this thread is horribly detached from reality. One to several years for a casual to hit max level? Enjoy playing a game with 6 people.
If it takes any longer than a month for the hardest core players to hit cap, the average casual will probably just quit. I agree that it shouldn't take 2 days, but let's be real here. You're suggesting we take EQ's 1999 leveling curve and multiply the amount of xp required by ten times or more.
That depends on WHY they leave. If they leave strictly because it is taking "too long to level" AND it is because there is not enough content to occupy that time while leveling OR they are not able to level up themselves by playing solo. Maybe that is not such a bad thing. That was never the appeal of Brad's vision(s) and it doesn't appear to be the approach of the development team. I think this strikes a chord with many people. I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be frustrated if it took me a month to gain a level at the rate which I play. That said I think 40-60 in game days is NOT unrealistic as long as there are things to do to occupy that time. Honestly a little longer would be MY preference (10-12 hours a week - 5-6 weeks to cap still seems too fast for my tastes). That said, if it took me 6 months to get the last ten levels AND I wasn't forced to camp the same places or rerun the same dungeon the entire time - finding fun ways/groups/places to get those last 10 levels wouldn't be a deal breaker (albeit still overkill IMO).
Liav said:I agree that it shouldn't take 2 days, but let's be real here. You're suggesting we take EQ's 1999 leveling curve and multiply the amount of xp required by ten times or more.
I think this is a perception. Your example suggests there are 50 levels and that the leveling curve is consistent with EQ original and ramping up the xp. Honestly, most of my friends took a couple months to hit max cap and gear up for raiding. Some longer. Maybe there will be 100 levels, hell levels, raid content for levels well below max, several iterations of epic weapons (v1, v2, v3) and epic armor(s) and more. As long as you are having fun with your friends and progressing in a meaningful way (level or otherwise) does it matter that you are not max level? For me personally, if people have enough to do and are complaining that they are not max level because they need to be the fastest, best geared, conquers of all things Pantheon that is their problem.
If there is enough to engage you regardless of level max level and time to get there should never be an issue.
It took me 30 days /played on my monk on Emarr as one of the first dozen people to 50 on the server in classic eq in 1999. My buddy's TSK took 50 days. We enjoyed every second of it. Leveling is unto its self an entire game that I loved dearly. In fact, that experience is better than any raiding I ever did. I would not mind something like 50 days /played at all.
How long it takes to level really is only important if leveling is the reward one is looking for. With proper developement, small rewards along the way, and new and interesting world, friends and community you enjoy, all come together to make leveling just another reward, but not always the daily goal.
In RL, many people look too far ahead, and miss everything happening around them on a daily basis, in doing so, many set themselves up for failure or depression.
Play the game, enjoy the world and other players, enjoy the small rewards, seek entertainment, that is the purpose of games is entertainment. If for some reason the game is not fun on a daily basis, then it's doomed anyway.
About the only time I recall really paying attention to my level was when I was almost finished with one, then I would push through and play that extra hour or so just to hear the "Ding". Otherwise, I just played to enjoy myself, and let go of the RL for a few hours.
What matters most to me with the pace of the game is being able to see repeat faces. Rose-colored glasses may be at play, but I remember in EQ seeing the same faces in the same zones/dungeons for at least a week. I had the opportunity to group with the same people quite a few times, which really helps build trust and relationships.
Slow leveling process -> many sessions spent in the same zone/area -> high chance you will see the same faces -> appreciation for community and new friendships formed
I briefly tried Agnarr and I stopped playing once I realized this was an issue for me. I got into a group for a quick pre-work session and I really enjoyed their company. However, when I logged in after work that day, I was already too low level to group the players who had played throughout the day. It immediately hit me that the entire community felt like ships passing in the night. I don't want a one night stand MMO - I want an MMO to bring home to see the folks.
I know the OP was asking for numbers, but I just don't have numbers to give. I think 50 days ballpark sounds about right to me though.
Wandidar said:patboy19 said:If you don't want to scare the casual players away by making the leveling a long process, then you have to have enough for them to do in those mid levels. I dont want to grind the same dungeon a hundred times to hit 31. I wouldn't mind spending months between 30-40 if I had enough variation to keep me distracted from my XP bar.
While I know Brad has said he doesn't want Pantheon to be a game where you just camp mobs in dungeons (pretty sure I remember that) - One of the things I always liked about EQ was that there were enough camps across the game world where I never really felt like I was doing the same thing day in and day out... but that was just my perspective.
Indeed, my focus will be improving whatever skills that happen to gain my attention, exploration...working on the Perception skill, which should eventually give me a title. If they allow us to build our own boats, or homes (like in Vanguard) I'll be working on things like that too. Doing things for my guildies where I can. Just levelling for the sake of levelling, would be mind numbingly boring for me. Pantheon will be my virtual home away from home and I want to know ALL about it. :) If I ding..bonus, but not my focus. :) I want to get to know the people around me too. :)
Cana
The average gamer spends about 22 hours a week playing games, or 3.14 hours a day. 75% of gamers play at least 2 hours a day, around 25% of those spend over 5 hours a day, and only about 10% play roughly 1 hour a day/10 hours a week (the remaining 15% between 1 and 1.9 hours a day).
So if they want the average player to reach max level in 6 months it would take 540 hours to hit max level, an average of 1 level every 3.6 days. I'd prefer it be 720+ to nudge the average player to max out at 8 months or more so that they aren't potentially spending 6+ months at max level before an expansion (or having two maxed characters)...but that might be a bit much as they'd probably end up gaining levels too infrequently for it to be rewarding.
720 =
3 months at 8 hrs a day.
Just shy of 5 months (144 days) at 5 hrs a day.
8 months at 3 hours a day.
Just about a year (360 days) at 2 hours a day.
So at 540 we'd have =
Just over 2 months (67.5 days) at 8 hours a day.
3.6 months (108 days) at 5 hours a day.
6 months at 3 hours a day.
9 months at 2 hours a day.
How quickly people go through the levels should be determined by the pace at which VR feels like they can introduce new content, expansions and whatnot. If they put out expansions every 2 months who cares that leveling to max can be achieved within that perdiod of time? If instead new content that is for those at the highest levels only rolls around once a year then the leveling curve needs to be adjusted. That is the key. Leveling speed shouldn't be a 'set it and forget it' component. It should be monitored, analyzed and when necessary adjusted. VR should be able to modify and apply during downtime, the algorthyms and values used in calculating experience gained. EQ1 had zones with experience modifiers which were adjusted from time to time to create 'hot zones', increasing the rate at which players earned XP only in that zon. Logically, if such a mechanic were introduced, zones could be modified to be 'cold zones' where XP was earned slower. Depending upon how the NPC database is handled, individual NPCs could have XP values adjusted as well. Thus if you wanted to slow down the fast levelers you tune down the content they are in while keeping the lower content the same, or even increasing it. The point being, XP gain should be something that is adjustable.
In the end though, so long as people are progressing, growing stronger and obtaining new skills, spells/abilities and there is adequate content for them to enjoy they will be happy regardless of the pace of leveling.
Vandraad said: ... Leveling speed shouldn't be a 'set it and forget it' component. It should be monitored, analyzed and when necessary adjusted. ...
I agree, if you're talking about pre-launch.
Post launch? Adjusting leveling speed (to be slower, or take longer, or be vastly more difficult) is almost universally perceived as negative.
Why? Because if, using an extremely unlikely example, you adjusted your leveling effort to require 400 hours instead of 40, one week after launch, yet several hundred players had already reached max level in 40 hours, you just negatively affected the next, potentially, 360 hours of gameplay for 99% of your paying customers.
So, again, pre-launch? Adjust as often as you wish. But after? That's just begging customers to walk away.
I have a problem with is when this small minority of players reaches max level...there is no content for them.
Systems such as progeny and AAs should alleviate these issues.
But you do understand what the reason behind this is right?:
"the devs ... focused on making the power gamers happy by higher level content and more raids while the vast majority of players get ignored."
If content is not extended sufficiently games lose subscribers. That money is the driving force behind why the games exist. Those "power gamers" are just the tip of the iceburg. They run out of content first but shortly after everyone else follows suit. The devs make those type of decisions for the betterment of everyone.
Vandraad said:How quickly people go through the levels should be determined by the pace at which VR feels like they can introduce new content, expansions and whatnot.
I agree with this - but think they should also build in buffer time. So - say they really believe that they will release new content 6 months after launch... I'd like to see them plan for the average player (whatever they decide the average player is) to take 9 months to level (time of their expected expansion x 1.5).
vjek said:Vandraad said: ... Leveling speed shouldn't be a 'set it and forget it' component. It should be monitored, analyzed and when necessary adjusted. ...I agree, if you're talking about pre-launch.
Post launch? Adjusting leveling speed (to be slower, or take longer, or be vastly more difficult) is almost universally perceived as negative.Why? Because if, using an extremely unlikely example, you adjusted your leveling effort to require 400 hours instead of 40, one week after launch, yet several hundred players had already reached max level in 40 hours, you just negatively affected the next, potentially, 360 hours of gameplay for 99% of your paying customers.
So, again, pre-launch? Adjust as often as you wish. But after? That's just begging customers to walk away.
Way to go blowing it out of proportions. When else have you seen anything in a game adjusted by 900%? Adjusting from 40 to 400 is a bit ridiculous, of course, but why should XP be some holy unchanging value when everything else in the game can be adjusted? Stats on gear gets changed, raid encounters get altered, spells are rebalanced, as are class skills, etc. For the health of the game, everything must be open to adustment. The key is that keeping a constant eye on things minute adjustments can be made quickly instead of waiting until it is too late and applying a massive change.
There's no specifically right or wrong answer to this as far as I'm concerned. RPG's is in large part about character progression, and there are numerous ways to achieve that - levels which then allows you to be more powerful by getting access to more abilities and greater base stats is only one of them.
The reason, I think, for the max level focus in most MMO's is because all content and progression is focused around that. Gear and difficulty is largely irrelevant before reaching max level. If you however create an experience where you not only introduce difficulty much earlier in the game experience, but also offer alternative ways of progressing your character, be it in forms of abilities as quest rewards, boss drops, horizontal gear progression and so on it would be okay to never really reach "endgame".
What truly kills the leveling experience, and in large part the enjoyment of a game such as this, is going days and weeks without really feeling like your character is progressing.
Ok this is a topic that either 1 needs to lose all the math, or 2 people need to start accounting for time played that isn't devoted 100% towards exp.. To say that you want the power gamers playing 8-12 hours/day to spend 2-3 months to level cap, and then turn around and expect 8-12 months for those playing 2-3/day the math just doesn't work out... you might look at those numbers and think to yourself. Well the math does work out, it works out perfectly 8-12 Hours/day x 2-3 months = 2-3 Hours/day x 8-12 Months. Sure, from the strictly algebraeic perspective, that equation balances.
However you're forgeting the player running 8-12 hours/day is devoting somwhere like 95% of that time directly towards leveling. They are more consistently grouping with the same people, establishing a group once and running that for longer periods of time. and perhaps most importantly, they are simply focused on leveling and only leveling. Your average player is spending just as much time exploring as adventuring. they're spending time trying out all the trade skills, chasing material gathering, stopping to talk to random NPC's to figure out the local quests, even spending time trying out alts and other classes. Those are all things that take a significant amount of time. Those are also all things that the power gamers working for max level as fast as possible may intend to do, but not until after they've acheived max level.
As a direct result, if you expect the average player to hit max level in 8-12 months, you probably shouldn't be surprised to see those that are pushing hard to reach max level in 3-4 weeks, if not even less.
Glorfendill said: ...As a direct result, if you expect the average player to hit max level in 8-12 months, you probably shouldn't be surprised to see those that are pushing hard to reach max level in 3-4 weeks, if not even less.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to highight with my example earlier in the thread.
VR can't make it attractive enough for casuals without making it trivial for hardcore, and they can't make it hardcore enough without alienating all the casuals (who, let's face it, are by far the larger paying demographic). When EQ1 was the only game in town, they could be as punitive as they wished. Heck, people were leaving UO just to get a PvE experience, they didn't care if the XP rate was punitive. Now?
If it's too punitive, people simply won't play.
Personally, I don't see over 400 hours of in-combat time required from level 1 to 50 being popular enough to gather the required subscriptions. But I could be wrong. :)
Glor is correct. Efficiency variance has been brought up multiple times in this thread already though. I think the answer is that you are taking the average player within a given play time subset. So it is the average efficiency of players who average 16-20 hours per day compared to the average efficiency of players who average 4-6 hours per day. It is all assumed as far as the comparison in order to be able to discuss it. But yes, the linear playtime curves aren't accurate.
The real question is: What is Max?
Is max when you are at maximum class level?
Is max when all of your skills are at cap?
Is max when you have the best gear in every slot available?
Is max when you have attained all of the possible bits of knowledge in the perception system?
Is max when you are on your 4th generation of progeny and have a mixture of all the races? (assuming first generation is at least one of each race paired with another race)
Is max when you have completed all the epic quests for your race and class?
When you look at how long it can take to fully get geared vs how long it takes to get to the point where more experience no longer benefits you it can take several months to get to maximum level then several years to get to maximum gear in modern games. All that is different between a game that focuses on gear being the definition of Max with 50 character levels vs 1 character level is the time it takes to be done leveling before you can begin collecting gear, which is usually only 10% of the total hours played. The other defining difference between a game with 50 character levels vs 1 character level is that maybe 10% of the zones are meaningful at maximum level with 50 character levels vs 100% of zones are meaningful with 1 character level.
I personally favor something more in-between the 1 character level and 50 character levels model where equipment only makes fairly small portion of character power and end game begins at around level 30 rather than waiting until level 50. Level 50 characters are still the best of the best but not everyone is expected to become grand masters before they progeny out.
I have some pretty graphs that will show the difference but they get deep into the math side and im having trouble uploading them.
Thanks for reading,
Trasak