Liav said:You keep speaking in absolutes while using words that only apply in a relative context. You do understand this, right?
Saying that things will not happen "quickly" is a meaningless statement on its own. In the context of a 5 year average, 1 year is relatively fast. In the context of a 1 year average, 2-3 months is relatively fast.
Repeating things that don't make sense doesn't cause them to suddenly start making sense.
No. What I keep speaking is what the devs have said. If there are "absolutes", it came from them.
I see, once again, you've latched onto me to try to pick a fight. Go look for your fight elsewhere, because you're not going to get it here.
The devs have never even remotely indicated a timeline for players of different playstyles (casual, hardcore, etc.) to reach max level. Not that I've heard, anyway.
Even if Brad replied to this thread himself and said "you can't reach max level quickly" it would be a vacuous statement because "quickly" means literally nothing without context.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. You just keep repeating yourself every time I ask you a question and it's pretty annoying.
Liav said:The devs have never even remotely indicated a timeline for players of different playstyles (casual, hardcore, etc.) to reach max level. Not that I've heard, anyway.
Even if Brad replied to this thread himself and said "you can't reach max level quickly" it would be a vacuous statement because "quickly" means literally nothing without context.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. You just keep repeating yourself every time I ask you a question and it's pretty annoying.
And I have never said a damn timeline either. You really need to go review the posts, because you're way off base regarding what I have said, in fact, I have said the opposite. WHen you asked, I specifically said I have no idea what would be a good progression timeline. So you are either not reading what was said by who or you are intentionally misreading what I have said in order to pick a fight. Either way, I am done responding to you because I don't particularly want to feed into your nonsense nor derail this thread with useless bickering.
Wandidar said:AND... please get back on topic :)
I have been on topic. Everyone of my posts, except Liav's derailment attempt have been about the topic.
If the course of this thread is any indication, there's not much left to say on this topic. People are either woefully underestimating top tier players, or talking about things that aren't relevant at all.
I've seen a dozen replies saying something inane like "the journey matters more than the destination" as if that is actually addressing the topic of the thread.
Noise. Just noise.
Ill jump back in at this point and state my personal opinion directly on the topic of the thread, though its likely to draw some ire.
Balancing leveling speed based on what hardcore gamers can achieve is bad game design. As an adult with a job and responsibilities 2 hours Monday-Thursday and 6 hours Friday – Sunday is the most I can hope to play. That's 26 hours a week. Unless grouping is very quick and efficient one can assume that at least 30 minutes each day is lost to grouping and travel so that would be 23.5 hours of grinding. Now assume any form of group etiquette in terms of not joining a 3 hour high efficiency group on the week days when I can only play 2 hours drop those 8 hours down to an effective 2-4 based on soloing or small group. Finally of the 6 hours each day weekend play its fair to assume that a chunk will be spend doing vendor management and auctioning items of value. That 16.5 is likely reduced to closer to 14.25 hours. That leaves an effective 16-18 hours of grinding available in a week.
If on the other hand we are talking about someone out of work/retired, a college student who makes gaming their top priority or someone on disability it is not unreasonable to assume 8-12 hours of game play every day. Leaving it at just 8 hours a day and removing the same group finding and account maintenance from the previous example leaving you with 6.75 hours of effective grinding a day. In one week the “hardcore gamer” is able to grind 47+ hours a week.
The disparity between 16 hours a week and 47 hours a week is just too much to design a leveling curve that challenges the hardcore gamer without decimating the standard gamer. I should also point out that 26 hours devoted to video games in a week would in other situations be considered very hardcore. What do you think your physic could look like if you were in the gym 26 hours a week? How many hobbies could you turn into a viable business with 26 hours a week? How happy could you make your SigFig/Family if you spent 26 hours a week focused on making them happy?
Someone in this thread previously said that posters asking for truly astronomical amounts of hours/days played in order to make leveling feel significant to hardcore gamers were out of touch with reality. I am going to wholeheartedly agree and hope for your health and happiness that none of you put 48+ hours a week into any video game. I've been down that road and its not good.
What ever VR ends up picking I will play Pantheon but if game play is just inaccessible with reasonable amounts of time invested I doubt I will play for years on end.
Trasak
letsdance said:to the OP: as long as possible. i'd even prefer if there were artificial barriers (like a daily exp cap) that prevent people from rushing through lvls within a few days - maybe at least on special servers that could then be merged with others.
Letsdance,
I do kind of like the idea of a daily exp cap or rather a diminishing returns exp cap. What would perhaps be better would be a weekly full exp cap and a diminishing returns after a certain amount of exp gained. This will allow weekend warriors more of an opportunity to keep up with their 24/7 counterparts. Needless to say there are lots of other things to do than exp and the 24/7s I'm sure will find a way to maximize those things as well.
Trasak
Trasak said:
Ill jump back in at this point and state my personal opinion directly on the topic of the thread, though its likely to draw some ire.
Balancing leveling speed based on what hardcore gamers can achieve is bad game design. As an adult with a job and responsibilities 2 hours Monday-Thursday and 6 hours Friday – Sunday is the most I can hope to play. That's 26 hours a week. Unless grouping is very quick and efficient one can assume that at least 30 minutes each day is lost to grouping and travel so that would be 23.5 hours of grinding. Now assume any form of group etiquette in terms of not joining a 3 hour high efficiency group on the week days when I can only play 2 hours drop those 8 hours down to an effective 2-4 based on soloing or small group. Finally of the 6 hours each day weekend play its fair to assume that a chunk will be spend doing vendor management and auctioning items of value. That 16.5 is likely reduced to closer to 14.25 hours. That leaves an effective 16-18 hours of grinding available in a week.
If on the other hand we are talking about someone out of work/retired, a college student who makes gaming their top priority or someone on disability it is not unreasonable to assume 8-12 hours of game play every day. Leaving it at just 8 hours a day and removing the same group finding and account maintenance from the previous example leaving you with 6.75 hours of effective grinding a day. In one week the “hardcore gamer” is able to grind 47+ hours a week.
The disparity between 16 hours a week and 47 hours a week is just too much to design a leveling curve that challenges the hardcore gamer without decimating the standard gamer. I should also point out that 26 hours devoted to video games in a week would in other situations be considered very hardcore. What do you think your physic could look like if you were in the gym 26 hours a week? How many hobbies could you turn into a viable business with 26 hours a week? How happy could you make your SigFig/Family if you spent 26 hours a week focused on making them happy?
Someone in this thread previously said that posters asking for truly astronomical amounts of hours/days played in order to make leveling feel significant to hardcore gamers were out of touch with reality. I am going to wholeheartedly agree and hope for your health and happiness that none of you put 48+ hours a week into any video game. I've been down that road and its not good.
What ever VR ends up picking I will play Pantheon but if game play is just inaccessible with reasonable amounts of time invested I doubt I will play for years on end.
Trasak
You aren't the only one with a "day job". My day job is in IT (I am a senior systems engineer for a large non-profit healthcare system), so sometimes I have to work nights and weekends. When I was playing EQ, I also had to balance being a single parent. My children are adults now. I am, also, one of those that you would consider a "hardcore gamer". In addition, I have to balance it with the charity work that my motorcycle club does.
Yeah. Time is at a premium. I don't want this game to be a "race to the end-game". If I wanted that, I would play WoW or any of the current generation of MMOs. That doesn't interest me in the least, and I don't seem to be alone with that. It didn't interest me back when I had to balance the demands of an IT job with raising chuldren either.
I don't get what you mean by your last sentence, what do you mean by "inaccessible"? There will be plenty of conternt available for all levels and time slots. You're not going to spernd the lower levels just grinding through yard trash to get to the high-end "interesting" content. The whole world is going to be interesting, from level 1 all of the way to the top. Unlike WoW and the current generations of MMOs, Pantheon isn't a game written that is all about the end-game, it's about the WHOLE game. Not only will there be lower-level content, they have also shown that there will be lower-level raid type (i.e. boss encounters) content in their various streams.
Kalok said:You and I have very different definitions of the word value. Your definition seems to be "Bypass everything to be the first kid to do x like it's a competition." My definition is, "Experience as much as possible and have fun."
Yep. They said that they wwill have raid systems. They ALSO said that hign-end raiding wwasn't the goal of the game, and based on the videos I have seen, the high-end raiding content isn't JUST going to be based on your level. For instance, one area for high-end raiding, you're going to need to have environmental resist. The one they specifically showed in the videos was environmental cold. If you don't have that, the environment will kill you before you get to the raid content. They have mentioned, cold, heat, wind shear, pressure, mana, and a couple of other environmental factors that can kill you. I suspect that, like the cold one, these will be the heaviest around getting to the high-end raiding content. Good luck doing all of those high-end raids without what you need to even make it there.
I'll start with the least important of the points I wish to make. Environmental resists simply appear to be a slightly more complex means of getting keyed for content. Such mechanics/requirements would be included in any power-leveling strategy.
The vastly more important point I wish to make, is that the "value" I hope is shared between us, as well as the Pantheon community at large, is inclusiveness. I believe the game should encompass a variety of play styles and not merely the one I am seeking. There will be role players, dedicated crafters and many others who choose to never experience raiding, which is ok, and I welcome their play style. You wish to "experience as much as possible and have fun" to which I welcome your play style and sincerely hope you can achieve that. My team enjoys a more competitive style of play that in no way should infringe on the play styles of others.
Finally, healthy debate promotes a well-informed community and the forefront of any healthy debate is respect. I respect that you have a different opinion and apologize if my responses appeared to be hostile or in any way personal in nature. We both are rooting for the success of the game even if we may have slightly different ideas on how to achieve this.
Kalok said:You aren't the only one with a "day job". My day job is in IT (I am a senior systems engineer for a large non-profit healthcare system), so sometimes I have to work nights and weekends. When I was playing EQ, I also had to balance being a single parent. My children are adults now. I am, also, one of those that you would consider a "hardcore gamer". In addition, I have to balance it with the charity work that my motorcycle club does.
Yeah. Time is at a premium. I don't want this game to be a "race to the end-game". If I wanted that, I would play WoW or any of the current generation of MMOs. That doesn't interest me in the least, and I don't seem to be alone with that. It didn't interest me back when I had to balance the demands of an IT job with raising chuldren either.
I don't get what you mean by your last sentence, what do you mean by "inaccessible"? There will be plenty of conternt available for all levels and time slots. You're not going to spernd the lower levels just grinding through yard trash to get to the high-end "interesting" content. The whole world is going to be interesting, from level 1 all of the way to the top. Unlike WoW and the current generations of MMOs, Pantheon isn't a game written that is all about the end-game, it's about the WHOLE game. Not only will there be lower-level content, they have also shown that there will be lower-level raid type (i.e. boss encounters) content in their various streams.
I think we are actually on the same page, please forgive my rambling writing style as its not one of my strong suites. I very much would like to see the game not being about "the grind to 50" and much more about what I had the opportunity to do that day. The idea of needing to put in 50 days played before accessing the challenging and enjoyable content is what I would consider "inaccessible". If on the other hand it felt more like I had 50 days of playable content before I wanted to start a new character that is a much more acceptable situation. 50 days of playable content, without resorting to grinding, for a team the size of VR is a really high bar to set at launch.
This is part of the reason why I favor log power growth over exponential power growth. Its much easier to make a large portion of content enjoyable at a wide level range rather than rail roading you into a few select areas based on your level, this should be reserved to the newbie tutorial zones. If you want a higher challenge you move into an area that has more mob abilities and environmental complications.
Trasak
Louden said:Kalok said:You and I have very different definitions of the word value. Your definition seems to be "Bypass everything to be the first kid to do x like it's a competition." My definition is, "Experience as much as possible and have fun."
Yep. They said that they wwill have raid systems. They ALSO said that hign-end raiding wwasn't the goal of the game, and based on the videos I have seen, the high-end raiding content isn't JUST going to be based on your level. For instance, one area for high-end raiding, you're going to need to have environmental resist. The one they specifically showed in the videos was environmental cold. If you don't have that, the environment will kill you before you get to the raid content. They have mentioned, cold, heat, wind shear, pressure, mana, and a couple of other environmental factors that can kill you. I suspect that, like the cold one, these will be the heaviest around getting to the high-end raiding content. Good luck doing all of those high-end raids without what you need to even make it there.
I'll start with the least important of the points I wish to make. Environmental resists simply appear to be a slightly more complex means of getting keyed for content. Such mechanics/requirements would be included in any power-leveling strategy.
The vastly more important point I wish to make, is that the "value" I hope is shared between us, as well as the Pantheon community at large, is inclusiveness. I believe the game should encompass a variety of play styles and not merely the one I am seeking. There will be role players, dedicated crafters and many others who choose to never experience raiding, which is ok, and I welcome their play style. You wish to "experience as much as possible and have fun" to which I welcome your play style and sincerely hope you can achieve that. My team enjoys a more competitive style of play that in no way should infringe on the play styles of others.
Finally, healthy debate promotes a well-informed community and the forefront of any healthy debate is respect. I respect that you have a different opinion and apologize if my responses appeared to be hostile or in any way personal in nature. We both are rooting for the success of the game even if we may have slightly different ideas on how to achieve this.
I can totally respect your playing style, and hope that you find what you're looking for. My issue isn't the playing style itself. Here's the thing.
I played EQ back in the day. From 1999 on up toi about 2004 or 2005, the PoP expansion was the beginning of the end due to a switch in game focus from the player who wanted the game for the game's sake to the "OMG I have to max-level as fast as I can!!!". I played EQ2 for a year or two, same thing happened. I played Vanguard for about a year, same thing happened (in fairness, there were alot of technical issues too). Each of these games had one thing in common. They were not originally designed for the "burn through content as fast as you can to get to end-game" crowd. Each of these games were "dumbed down" to accomodate those sorts of players, ruining it for those of us who wanted to play the game for the game's sake, not for "the bragging rights of being first". I don't want Pantheon to turn into that. There are plenty of MMOs out there that already accomodate those sorts of players. There are no decent MMOs out there for those of is that want ther experience of the experience. Pantheon is supposed to be that one. It's extremely difficult to balance those two, diametrically opposed, play styles in the same game.
To be fair, Pantheon is not being pitched, by the devs, as the game for max-level as fast as you can to get to the end-game, but the opposite. ALOT of us that flocked to Pantheon specifically BECAUSE of what has been pitched. Not only will we be extremely disappointed if Pantheon turns into another WoW-style platform, but this game will fail and be relegated to the dustbin of history if it turns into that.
Trasak said:Kalok said:You aren't the only one with a "day job". My day job is in IT (I am a senior systems engineer for a large non-profit healthcare system), so sometimes I have to work nights and weekends. When I was playing EQ, I also had to balance being a single parent. My children are adults now. I am, also, one of those that you would consider a "hardcore gamer". In addition, I have to balance it with the charity work that my motorcycle club does.
Yeah. Time is at a premium. I don't want this game to be a "race to the end-game". If I wanted that, I would play WoW or any of the current generation of MMOs. That doesn't interest me in the least, and I don't seem to be alone with that. It didn't interest me back when I had to balance the demands of an IT job with raising chuldren either.
I don't get what you mean by your last sentence, what do you mean by "inaccessible"? There will be plenty of conternt available for all levels and time slots. You're not going to spernd the lower levels just grinding through yard trash to get to the high-end "interesting" content. The whole world is going to be interesting, from level 1 all of the way to the top. Unlike WoW and the current generations of MMOs, Pantheon isn't a game written that is all about the end-game, it's about the WHOLE game. Not only will there be lower-level content, they have also shown that there will be lower-level raid type (i.e. boss encounters) content in their various streams.
I think we are actually on the same page, please forgive my rambling writing style as its not one of my strong suites. I very much would like to see the game not being about "the grind to 50" and much more about what I had the opportunity to do that day. The idea of needing to put in 50 days played before accessing the challenging and enjoyable content is what I would consider "inaccessible". If on the other hand it felt more like I had 50 days of playable content before I wanted to start a new character that is a much more acceptable situation. 50 days of playable content, without resorting to grinding, for a team the size of VR is a really high bar to set at launch.
This is part of the reason why I favor log power growth over exponential power growth. Its much easier to make a large portion of content enjoyable at a wide level range rather than rail roading you into a few select areas based on your level, this should be reserved to the newbie tutorial zones. If you want a higher challenge you move into an area that has more mob abilities and environmental complications.
Trasak
I don't know if you've had the time to view all of the early videos, but it might be worth devoting some time to it, if you have it free. Some of them are kinda long, two to three hours, but worth every minute of it. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what they have going on as far as world-size and content, even though in the videos they're nowhere near full of playable content yet.
Here is their Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4MbaiykerIrjKWRA6407tQ
Trasak said:What ever VR ends up picking I will play Pantheon but if game play is just inaccessible with reasonable amounts of time invested I doubt I will play for years on end.
Trasak
Define 'reasonable' that works for everyone. You can't. And because it is a value that cannot be defined to apply to everyone this discussion is pointless. What is reasonable for you will not be reasonable for the next person. So who is right? Neither one.
It isn't VR who determines how quickly people level, it is the players. Yes, VR puts in all the numbers of how much XP each level takes and how much XP each NPC gives and whatever modifiers apply, but in it is completely up to the players. How efficient players are at playing will have a far greater impact on leveling speed. 'X hours played' is a meaningless number when you don't how the player spent that time. You can have a hardcore player amassing a huge number of hours per week but if they are just goofing off for most of it they could easily level slower than someone who puts in only an hour or so day but uses their time wisely.
Vandraad said:Trasak said:What ever VR ends up picking I will play Pantheon but if game play is just inaccessible with reasonable amounts of time invested I doubt I will play for years on end.
Trasak
Define 'reasonable' that works for everyone. You can't. And because it is a value that cannot be defined to apply to everyone this discussion is pointless. What is reasonable for you will not be reasonable for the next person. So who is right? Neither one.
It isn't VR who determines how quickly people level, it is the players. Yes, VR puts in all the numbers of how much XP each level takes and how much XP each NPC gives and whatever modifiers apply, but in it is completely up to the players. How efficient players are at playing will have a far greater impact on leveling speed. 'X hours played' is a meaningless number when you don't how the player spent that time. You can have a hardcore player amassing a huge number of hours per week but if they are just goofing off for most of it they could easily level slower than someone who puts in only an hour or so day but uses their time wisely.
I will say that I will probably be one of those "lower speed levelers". Not onlt due to the time that I have available to play, but also because I like to explore and see new places. I have no problem taking weeks off to just explore and check out new places. That's part of being "a part of the world" that the game brings, to me.
Trasak said:letsdance said:to the OP: as long as possible. i'd even prefer if there were artificial barriers (like a daily exp cap) that prevent people from rushing through lvls within a few days - maybe at least on special servers that could then be merged with others.
Letsdance,
I do kind of like the idea of a daily exp cap or rather a diminishing returns exp cap. What would perhaps be better would be a weekly full exp cap and a diminishing returns after a certain amount of exp gained. This will allow weekend warriors more of an opportunity to keep up with their 24/7 counterparts. Needless to say there are lots of other things to do than exp and the 24/7s I'm sure will find a way to maximize those things as well.
Trasak
I'm pretty sure XP caps have been ruled out. It's my understanding that VR has no desire to "limit" how fast a player grinds to max level. Some people are going to power grind and that's all there is to it. People should be able to play how they want to play without artificial barriers screwing things up. Plenty of people dedicate a lot of time to gaming to improve their craft and be the best player they can be. Imposing restrictions on their leveling advancement so that weekend warriors can keep up ... it's like telling a kid who is hardcore studying for a test that because he is putting in extra effort, the book he is studying is going to have random incorrect information added in to throw him off. Players shouldn't be handicapped for going the extra mile, they should be incentivized. Time has always been one of the most important measurables in a character development model ... and that time should not become "less valuable" after crossing some arbitrary threshold. Diminishing returns on stat values is fine ... using it on a person's time is unfathomable.
Kalok said:Louden said:Kalok said:You and I have very different definitions of the word value. Your definition seems to be "Bypass everything to be the first kid to do x like it's a competition." My definition is, "Experience as much as possible and have fun."
Yep. They said that they wwill have raid systems. They ALSO said that hign-end raiding wwasn't the goal of the game, and based on the videos I have seen, the high-end raiding content isn't JUST going to be based on your level. For instance, one area for high-end raiding, you're going to need to have environmental resist. The one they specifically showed in the videos was environmental cold. If you don't have that, the environment will kill you before you get to the raid content. They have mentioned, cold, heat, wind shear, pressure, mana, and a couple of other environmental factors that can kill you. I suspect that, like the cold one, these will be the heaviest around getting to the high-end raiding content. Good luck doing all of those high-end raids without what you need to even make it there.
I'll start with the least important of the points I wish to make. Environmental resists simply appear to be a slightly more complex means of getting keyed for content. Such mechanics/requirements would be included in any power-leveling strategy.
The vastly more important point I wish to make, is that the "value" I hope is shared between us, as well as the Pantheon community at large, is inclusiveness. I believe the game should encompass a variety of play styles and not merely the one I am seeking. There will be role players, dedicated crafters and many others who choose to never experience raiding, which is ok, and I welcome their play style. You wish to "experience as much as possible and have fun" to which I welcome your play style and sincerely hope you can achieve that. My team enjoys a more competitive style of play that in no way should infringe on the play styles of others.
Finally, healthy debate promotes a well-informed community and the forefront of any healthy debate is respect. I respect that you have a different opinion and apologize if my responses appeared to be hostile or in any way personal in nature. We both are rooting for the success of the game even if we may have slightly different ideas on how to achieve this.
I can totally respect your playing style, and hope that you find what you're looking for. My issue isn't the playing style itself. Here's the thing.
I played EQ back in the day. From 1999 on up toi about 2004 or 2005, the PoP expansion was the beginning of the end due to a switch in game focus from the player who wanted the game for the game's sake to the "OMG I have to max-level as fast as I can!!!". I played EQ2 for a year or two, same thing happened. I played Vanguard for about a year, same thing happened (in fairness, there were alot of technical issues too). Each of these games had one thing in common. They were not originally designed for the "burn through content as fast as you can to get to end-game" crowd. Each of these games were "dumbed down" to accomodate those sorts of players, ruining it for those of us who wanted to play the game for the game's sake, not for "the bragging rights of being first". I don't want Pantheon to turn into that. There are plenty of MMOs out there that already accomodate those sorts of players. There are no decent MMOs out there for those of is that want ther experience of the experience. Pantheon is supposed to be that one. It's extremely difficult to balance those two, diametrically opposed, play styles in the same game.
To be fair, Pantheon is not being pitched, by the devs, as the game for max-level as fast as you can to get to the end-game, but the opposite. ALOT of us that flocked to Pantheon specifically BECAUSE of what has been pitched. Not only will we be extremely disappointed if Pantheon turns into another WoW-style platform, but this game will fail and be relegated to the dustbin of history if it turns into that.
The first thing that comes to my mind is the failed MMO WildStar. It was solo leveling with a strong raid focus with instanced dungeons along the way. It was not lacking in features since it has something for everyone even player housing, PvP, the works. It failed for a number of reasons but the main reason it crashed and burned is it tried to compete directly with WoW. The only competition to WoW's raiding right now is FF14 so let me explain why these two exist: Well known IPs with legions of fans, massive budgets, and huge dev teams. Very few MMORPGs can get away with focusing on end game raiding it is too expensive and too few players utilize it. Pantheon will not be able to compete in that arena since there is no way their dev team can create raids as quickly as these two behemoths of the gaming industry (Blizzard & Square).
Vandraad said:Define 'reasonable' that works for everyone. You can't. And because it is a value that cannot be defined to apply to everyone this discussion is pointless. What is reasonable for you will not be reasonable for the next person. So who is right? Neither one.
I feel that reasonable should be based on 24 hours of effective play time a week will equate to finishing all content within one year on a single character, assuming multi trade skill and completionist collections are excluded. This does included pre raid gearing and keying but not attaining best in slot before the year is out.
The exact amount is ofcourse a function of how efficiency ties into content consumption but plus or minus 20% of this target feels reasonable from my perspective. Part of beta testing is usually focus group feedback on things like pacing and class power. Ultimately VR is a business and will try to make their product as appealing to as large a group of consumers as possible without violating their vision and becoming just another ruber stamp MMO
Ziegfried said:Kalok said:Louden said:Kalok said:You and I have very different definitions of the word value. Your definition seems to be "Bypass everything to be the first kid to do x like it's a competition." My definition is, "Experience as much as possible and have fun."
Yep. They said that they wwill have raid systems. They ALSO said that hign-end raiding wwasn't the goal of the game, and based on the videos I have seen, the high-end raiding content isn't JUST going to be based on your level. For instance, one area for high-end raiding, you're going to need to have environmental resist. The one they specifically showed in the videos was environmental cold. If you don't have that, the environment will kill you before you get to the raid content. They have mentioned, cold, heat, wind shear, pressure, mana, and a couple of other environmental factors that can kill you. I suspect that, like the cold one, these will be the heaviest around getting to the high-end raiding content. Good luck doing all of those high-end raids without what you need to even make it there.
I'll start with the least important of the points I wish to make. Environmental resists simply appear to be a slightly more complex means of getting keyed for content. Such mechanics/requirements would be included in any power-leveling strategy.
The vastly more important point I wish to make, is that the "value" I hope is shared between us, as well as the Pantheon community at large, is inclusiveness. I believe the game should encompass a variety of play styles and not merely the one I am seeking. There will be role players, dedicated crafters and many others who choose to never experience raiding, which is ok, and I welcome their play style. You wish to "experience as much as possible and have fun" to which I welcome your play style and sincerely hope you can achieve that. My team enjoys a more competitive style of play that in no way should infringe on the play styles of others.
Finally, healthy debate promotes a well-informed community and the forefront of any healthy debate is respect. I respect that you have a different opinion and apologize if my responses appeared to be hostile or in any way personal in nature. We both are rooting for the success of the game even if we may have slightly different ideas on how to achieve this.
I can totally respect your playing style, and hope that you find what you're looking for. My issue isn't the playing style itself. Here's the thing.
I played EQ back in the day. From 1999 on up toi about 2004 or 2005, the PoP expansion was the beginning of the end due to a switch in game focus from the player who wanted the game for the game's sake to the "OMG I have to max-level as fast as I can!!!". I played EQ2 for a year or two, same thing happened. I played Vanguard for about a year, same thing happened (in fairness, there were alot of technical issues too). Each of these games had one thing in common. They were not originally designed for the "burn through content as fast as you can to get to end-game" crowd. Each of these games were "dumbed down" to accomodate those sorts of players, ruining it for those of us who wanted to play the game for the game's sake, not for "the bragging rights of being first". I don't want Pantheon to turn into that. There are plenty of MMOs out there that already accomodate those sorts of players. There are no decent MMOs out there for those of is that want ther experience of the experience. Pantheon is supposed to be that one. It's extremely difficult to balance those two, diametrically opposed, play styles in the same game.
To be fair, Pantheon is not being pitched, by the devs, as the game for max-level as fast as you can to get to the end-game, but the opposite. ALOT of us that flocked to Pantheon specifically BECAUSE of what has been pitched. Not only will we be extremely disappointed if Pantheon turns into another WoW-style platform, but this game will fail and be relegated to the dustbin of history if it turns into that.
The first thing that comes to my mind is the failed MMO WildStar. It was solo leveling with a strong raid focus with instanced dungeons along the way. It was not lacking in features since it has something for everyone even player housing, PvP, the works. It failed for a number of reasons but the main reason it crashed and burned is it tried to compete directly with WoW. The only competition to WoW's raiding right now is FF14 so let me explain why these two exist: Well known IPs with legions of fans, massive budgets, and huge dev teams. Very few MMORPGs can get away with focusing on end game raiding it is too expensive and too few players utilize it. Pantheon will not be able to compete in that arena since there is no way their dev team can create raids as quickly as these two behemoths of the gaming industry (Blizzard & Square).
I agrere. An indie company against large companies like that always loses. Whicvh is why I am hoping that the Devs don't go that route. I will say that one thing that I believe that Pantheon is doing right post-launch is that they will have one team focusing on existing content for "moves/adds/changes/break-fix" and one team focusing on completely new content and expansions.
Trasak said:Vandraad said:Define 'reasonable' that works for everyone. You can't. And because it is a value that cannot be defined to apply to everyone this discussion is pointless. What is reasonable for you will not be reasonable for the next person. So who is right? Neither one.
I feel that reasonable should be based on 24 hours of effective play time a week will equate to finishing all content within one year on a single character, assuming multi trade skill and completionist collections are excluded. This does included pre raid gearing and keying but not attaining best in slot before the year is out.
The exact amount is ofcourse a function of how efficiency ties into content consumption but plus or minus 20% of this target feels reasonable from my perspective. Part of beta testing is usually focus group feedback on things like pacing and class power. Ultimately VR is a business and will try to make their product as appealing to as large a group of consumers as possible without violating their vision and becoming just another ruber stamp MMO
That's where this "argument" falls apart. There is no defining "end" to this game, so there is no "finishing all content".
Honestly I would think they should make it take 2 years to hit max level.. for a casual gamer, and maybe 1 year for hardcore. The benefit to a having a very long time between levels is a few things. 1. more time to build additional content, 2. if you get the time wrong, you can always decrease it in the future.
oneADseven said:letsdance said:to the OP: as long as possible. i'd even prefer if there were artificial barriers (like a daily exp cap) that prevent people from rushing through lvls within a few days - maybe at least on special servers that could then be merged with others.
I'm pretty sure XP caps have been ruled out. It's my understanding that VR has no desire to "limit" how fast a player grinds to max level. Some people are going to power grind and that's all there is to it. People should be able to play how they want to play without artificial barriers screwing things up. Plenty of people dedicate a lot of time to gaming to improve their craft and be the best player they can be. Imposing restrictions on their leveling advancement so that weekend warriors can keep up ... it's like telling a kid who is hardcore studying for a test that because he is putting in extra effort, the book he is studying is going to have random incorrect information added in to throw him off. Players shouldn't be handicapped for going the extra mile, they should be incentivized. Time has always been one of the most important measurables in a character development model ... and that time should not become "less valuable" after crossing some arbitrary threshold. Diminishing returns on stat values is fine ... using it on a person's time is unfathomable.
I am more in line with liking the idea of a sub server with the EXP per week limitation on it. It would become the non power leveler server simply because power leveling doesn't work there. Again its exp per week not time per week. If I were super efficient at leveling I could hit my diminising returns line after 12 hours of grinding leaving me another 12 hours of game play to craft and RP without worrying about being outleveled by my friends. Not saying that I couldn't grind for all 24 hours of my game play that week but it might be the same as only 18 hours of grinding over two weeks. It could also mean that if I only solo (50% of full group efficiency) or small group (75% of full group efficiency) grind I will also be able to keep up. Some people have social anxieties that even extend to games and constantly interacting with full groups can be painful.
Short answer I would choose to play on a server with EXP limits over one without.
Trasak
Demostorm said:Honestly I would think they should make it take 2 years to hit max level.. for a casual gamer, and maybe 1 year for hardcore. The benefit to starting very long time between levels is a few things. 1. more time to build additional content, 2. if you get the time wrong, you can always decrease it in the future.
Thats not a bad model either and if you assume a 24 hours per week / 48 hours per week split between serious but casual and hardcore it fits. Balancing the 12 hours per week Casual vs 72 hours per week Hardcore is when it gets impossible to make everyone happy. Realistically, statistically, both of these play styles are most likely the 3rd standard deviation of players but with the 12 hour per week being 6 times more likely (72 hours/12 hours) due to time resource cost than the 72 hours per week.
Kalok said:That's where this "argument" falls apart. There is no defining "end" to this game, so there is no "finishing all content".
Yah, its a rough generalization. I am really more trying to allude to the "end" being when the player feels its time to start another character as outside of huge time sinks there is nothing significant left to gain on the character from a mechanical standpoint.