Death penalties are another conversation entirely guys... sooo... let's not turn this one into that one :)
I know they mentioned something like this - but what do folks think of "leveling" being tied to interlocked advancement based on your class / role?
For example, maybe "martial skills" and "avoidance" skills are a big deal for monks... and in order to progress from one level to the next you need to get X experience (killng mobs), Y martial skills, and Z avoidance skills.
Personally no, I think skills are another form of leveling and shouldn't be forgotten about but they shouldn't be required to level up the character. A monk without avoidance skills might find it harder to stay alive at the same level than a monk with a greater amount of avoidance. Or if martial affects damage than the monk would level up slower or be more useless to his group with less martial skills. If those skills are a big deal for monks then not leveling them should make a big difference when the monk goes off to combat.
Happy Turkey day!
Einelinea said:for me --- I am a notoriously S L O W leveler if I take my time --- a year, give or take a few months ...
but I will be in Alpha and Beta, so we will see --- but I am playing to have fun, not be the first to hit max .. raced to max before, this time I'm not
I agree. If getting to max level ASAP is your highest proirity in this game, you are missing the whole point of this game.
Hateborn said:I just plan to get to max level as fast as humanly possible. I am sure there are no "missables". I can go back and check out the content after im max level. That is how I play new MMOs typically.
This is the type of gameplay that ruins games. Content in a handcrafted world is extremly expensive and time consuming to create. When players try to burn through the content, the developers cut corners and reduce the quality of the content to meet the demand of the extreme power leveler. Since the player doesn't really care about content, the game suffers. Then you get the crap MMOs that are out here now.
This is the type of game play that ruins games. Content in a handcrafted world is extremly expensive and time consuming to create. When players try to burn through the content, the developers cut corners and reduce the quality of the content to meet the demand of the extreme power leveler. Since the player doesn't really care about content, the game suffers. Then you get the crap MMOs that are out here now.
Wandidar said:I know they mentioned something like this - but what do folks think of "leveling" being tied to interlocked advancement based on your class / role?
For example, maybe "martial skills" and "avoidance" skills are a big deal for monks... and in order to progress from one level to the next you need to get X experience (killng mobs), Y martial skills, and Z avoidance skills.
I think the monk can play very well into the atmospheric system. Through long term Qi cultivation via inner alchemy a monk should be able to build a defense against the elements. Lets say you must practice you Qi Gong in such a way for an long period of time to build a +20 tolerance to the cold. If you swtich to another QI Gong form to to build a defense against poison, then you begin to lose the defense for cold and start gaining the resistance to poison. but I digress wrong thread
I don't feel you can really talk about leveling in isolation, since it relates to how the rest of the game plays.
The important thing is that each avenue of progress is balanced in a way that does not diminish the value of earning it. If things come too quickly and easily they are mentally replacable. If its too long and difficult you avoid it or pay a possible cost of 'remorse'. The investment curve should align closely between progression avenues. This is a formula, that for me personally, developers tend to get wrong. It all comes back to fundamentals of gameplay and pacing. If combat is too fast paced and downtime is minimized there is little value placed on regenerative abilities and efficiency modifiers (basically every stat in the game). If leveling happens too quickly you end up with a flood of replaceable acquisitions. The two usually go hand in hand and it is the formula that creates the "Game does not start until max level" mentality.
Another avenue is questing, factions, and non-combat play (eg crafting). The implementation of this seems to always be on one extreme of the pendulum. Either too accessible, or basically inaccessible. With the exception of some factions these should not just be incidental to gameplay. I shouldn't generally have to worry about out leveling too much quest content, questing shouldn't just be a way to augment XP, and give me options early on so I can carry these goals with me throughout the journey. I know this stuff is not easy to develop but percieve a lot of the questing and non-combat systems as lazy implementations of something that could easily enhance experience -- rather than being tacked onto the side of it.
So to answer OPs question.. it should take long enough that maybe 30% of the player population is max level by the next content release. It should blend well with other paths of progression, and not be or make other aspects of gameplay entirely incidental.
Gnog said: Trasak I like your soapbox issue. One reason I feel compelled to rush to max level in many MMOs is the massive power gap between a max level toon and a max minus 5 level toon, or even a max minus 2 level toon. A log based power curve sounds like a much better way to keep the community together and give diminishing returns to rushing to max level. Has VR said anything about linear vs exponential vs log power progression?
Gong,
You have fully Grokked, stranger in a strange land reference, my soap box. I have considered sending an email or message directly to Brad outlining the math and implementation but i am sure he is already bombarded with well meaning advice. I would not be surprised if Kilson has already passed on my original thread expounding on the concept but its possible pantheon is already too far into development to change the power growth curve. There are also some ip issues with taking ideas of fans and implementing or at least acknowledging that you are.
Maintaining the feel of accomplishment at higher levels on a log power curve is also a challenge. The way I have thought of is gear is what primarily increases power after level 30 and character levels after level 30 is when you get non core situational powers. These powers would be required to succed in levl 40+ and even more complex powers are required for level 50 zones. The zones could still be challenged by multiple groups of 30s by raw power but they will take deaths due to only being able to zerg rather than responding with the correct abilities and lacking the correct weapons they may be required to brute force through damage reduction.
It's is a major deviation from modern MMO late game design. In theory, mudflattion would be virtually eliminated as would large swaths of underpopulated dead zones after several expansions.
Trasak said:Gnog said: Trasak I like your soapbox issue. One reason I feel compelled to rush to max level in many MMOs is the massive power gap between a max level toon and a max minus 5 level toon, or even a max minus 2 level toon. A log based power curve sounds like a much better way to keep the community together and give diminishing returns to rushing to max level. Has VR said anything about linear vs exponential vs log power progression?Gong,
You have fully Grokked, stranger in a strange land reference, my soap box. I have considered sending an email or message directly to Brad outlining the math and implementation but i am sure he is already bombarded with well meaning advice. I would not be surprised if Kilson has already passed on my original thread expounding on the concept but its possible pantheon is already too far into development to change the power growth curve. There are also some ip issues with taking ideas of fans and implementing or at least acknowledging that you are.
Maintaining the feel of accomplishment at higher levels on a log power curve is also a challenge. The way I have thought of is gear is what primarily increases power after level 30 and character levels after level 30 is when you get non core situational powers. These powers would be required to succed in levl 40+ and even more complex powers are required for level 50 zones. The zones could still be challenged by multiple groups of 30s by raw power but they will take deaths due to only being able to zerg rather than responding with the correct abilities and lacking the correct weapons they may be required to brute force through damage reduction.
It's is a major deviation from modern MMO late game design. In theory, mudflattion would be virtually eliminated as would large swaths of underpopulated dead zones after several expansions.
I would argue, against both of you, that if you are in the game JUST for 'teh powerz" then you're missing out on so much of what the game has to offer.
Unlike WoW, and its ilk, much like the original EQ (pre-PoP), it wasn't JUST about being "all powerful". It was about the fun, the adventure, the social gaming, the exploration and finding new things, and so much more. There was just as much great content at the lower levels as there was at the higher levels, in the case of EQ (again pre-PoP) there was, arguably, MORE content for lower to mid levels than there were for high level "end-game" encounterrs. Which is why so many people misremember "camps always being argued over and stolen" as being prevalent in the game; people power-leveled up much faster than the original game designers expected, so the "end-game" content just wasn't there in the massive numbers that these "phat lewtz" players wanted. Neither EQ, nor Pantheon are about "the end game". They are about the aforementioned experiences. Think of it as the game equivalent of looking at a stick vs looking at a tree. Sure, you can have a stick as tall as a tree, but the tree has more presence.
Kalok said:I would argue, against both of you, that if you are in the game JUST for 'teh powerz" then you're missing out on so much of what the game has to offer.
Unlike WoW, and its ilk, much like the original EQ (pre-PoP), it wasn't JUST about being "all powerful". It was about the fun, the adventure, the social gaming, the exploration and finding new things, and so much more. There was just as much great content at the lower levels as there was at the higher levels, in the case of EQ (again pre-PoP) there was, arguably, MORE content for lower to mid levels than there were for high level "end-game" encounterrs. Which is why so many people misremember "camps always being argued over and stolen" as being prevalent in the game; people power-leveled up much faster than the original game designers expected, so the "end-game" content just wasn't there in the massive numbers that these "phat lewtz" players wanted. Neither EQ, nor Pantheon are about "the end game". They are about the aforementioned experiences. Think of it as the game equivalent of looking at a stick vs looking at a tree. Sure, you can have a stick as tall as a tree, but the tree has more presence.
Your post is a good indicator that I still have not found a good way to express the log power curve. My brain sees patterns and systems in a non standard way, I was professionally evaluated when I was in high school due to fear of a learning disability, and Gong was apparently able to understand it despite my poor example.
Log power curve is actually the opposite of being about "the powerz". It's primary focus is to allow as large a portion of the population as possible, regardless of their personal character progression, to meaningfully group together and experience a very large portion of the content without trivializing it.
It is a careful balance to make leveling feel meaningfully after the slow down of both leveling speed and power growth. It's almost like level 1-30 is boot camp and job training and leveling 30-50 is going from private to chief master sergeant. You will still be a human infantry soldier but you will know many more tricks of the trade, have knowledge of a wide array of weapons rather than just the m16, but ultimately not much more personally dangerous then a private with a loaded m16 pointed in the right direction.
Trasak said:Kalok said:I would argue, against both of you, that if you are in the game JUST for 'teh powerz" then you're missing out on so much of what the game has to offer.
Unlike WoW, and its ilk, much like the original EQ (pre-PoP), it wasn't JUST about being "all powerful". It was about the fun, the adventure, the social gaming, the exploration and finding new things, and so much more. There was just as much great content at the lower levels as there was at the higher levels, in the case of EQ (again pre-PoP) there was, arguably, MORE content for lower to mid levels than there were for high level "end-game" encounterrs. Which is why so many people misremember "camps always being argued over and stolen" as being prevalent in the game; people power-leveled up much faster than the original game designers expected, so the "end-game" content just wasn't there in the massive numbers that these "phat lewtz" players wanted. Neither EQ, nor Pantheon are about "the end game". They are about the aforementioned experiences. Think of it as the game equivalent of looking at a stick vs looking at a tree. Sure, you can have a stick as tall as a tree, but the tree has more presence.
Your post is a good indicator that I still have not found a good way to express the log power curve. My brain sees patterns and systems in a non standard way, I was professionally evaluated when I was in high school due to fear of a learning disability, and Gong was apparently able to understand it despite my poor example.
Log power curve is actually the opposite of being about "the powerz". It's primary focus is to allow as large a portion of the population as possible, regardless of their personal character progression, to meaningfully group together and experience a very large portion of the content without trivializing it.
It is a careful balance to make leveling feel meaningfully after the slow down of both leveling speed and power growth. It's almost like level 1-30 is boot camp and job training and leveling 30-50 is going from private to chief master sergeant.
Except that it's not. The lower-level game is fun in and of itself. It's not JUST about the gaining power, which is exactly what your last paragraph is implying. It's exactly about what is said in my previous post. You're saying that the game is about "surviving the grind of the lower levels" to get to "the fun" at the upper levels. That's completely wrong-headed. If you're believing that, then WoW is going to be the best game for you, because that's exactly what WoW is. This game, Pantheon, is not that. It's closer to the opposite of that. There is "entertaining" content for all levels, thus obliterating the need to power-level to the highest level to have the "fun" content.
Nedrith said:Personally no, I think skills are another form of leveling and shouldn't be forgotten about but they shouldn't be required to level up the character. A monk without avoidance skills might find it harder to stay alive at the same level than a monk with a greater amount of avoidance. Or if martial affects damage than the monk would level up slower or be more useless to his group with less martial skills. If those skills are a big deal for monks then not leveling them should make a big difference when the monk goes off to combat.
I agree. One of the things that I loved about AA's was that it allowed you to specialize to accomodate your particular playstyle. In the end (barring those abslutely zealotous players who wanted to accumlate all AA's) a particular paladin might have a completely different skillset as another.
I see martial skills as much the same. Why should my paladin have to max out his 1hs just to ding, when he always uses a 2hs? Why should a paladin that concentrates on DPS and is geared for that be forced to try to find roles as the tank just to advance defense so that he may ding?
I don't really have a fondness for any system that forces a player the play in a way that they don't enjoy simply to slow them down. To me a requirement to advance every combat skill available , or even a subset of them, as a prereq for gaining a level is just as arbitrary and as much a nuisance as requiring them to max out a crafting skill to gain a level.
Feyshtey said:Nedrith said:Personally no, I think skills are another form of leveling and shouldn't be forgotten about but they shouldn't be required to level up the character. A monk without avoidance skills might find it harder to stay alive at the same level than a monk with a greater amount of avoidance. Or if martial affects damage than the monk would level up slower or be more useless to his group with less martial skills. If those skills are a big deal for monks then not leveling them should make a big difference when the monk goes off to combat.
I agree. One of the things that I loved about AA's was that it allowed you to specialize to accomodate your particular playstyle. In the end (barring those abslutely zealotous players who wanted to accumlate all AA's) a particular paladin might have a completely different skillset as another.
I see martial skills as much the same. Why should my paladin have to max out his 1hs just to ding, when he always uses a 2hs? Why should a paladin that concentrates on DPS and is geared for that be forced to try to find roles as the tank just to advance defense so that he may ding?
I don't really have a fondness for any system that forces a player the play in a way that they don't enjoy simply to slow them down. To me a requirement to advance every combat skill available , or even a subset of them, as a prereq for gaining a level is just as arbitrary and as much a nuisance as requiring them to max out a crafting skill to gain a level.
Never once, in all of the streams, have they ever said that you will need to max your skills for a particular level to level up. That wasn't even a mechanic in EQ, unless it came about sometime after PoP when I stopped playing.
Kalok said:Except that it's not. The lower-level game is fun in and of itself. It's not JUST about the gaining power, which is exactly what your last paragraph is implying. It's exactly about what is said in my previous post. You're saying that the game is about "surviving the grind of the lower levels" to get to "the fun" at the upper levels. That's completely wrong-headed. If you're believing that, then WoW is going to be the best game for you, because that's exactly what WoW is. This game, Pantheon, is not that. It's closer to the opposite of that. There is "entertaining" content for all levels, thus obliterating the need to power-level to the highest level to have the "fun" content.
You don't know that yet, because the game is not out. If the game is designed to make the entire game as engaging as the usual "end-game", then what you say will be accurate. However, if everything you've done and "earned" up until max level suddenly gets made trivial by hitting max level, then that goes against what you're saying.
And I'd wager that most MMO players are not RPers, or have a game-traversing continual back-story like you've set up for yourself, where you completely immerse yourself in the game world to the point where everything meta is irrelevant to you. Some of us can't/don't/will not ignore the meta.
Also, people not sharing your opinion on progression and so on does not mean they belong in WoW or some other MMO. This game is not being specifically designed for you. Honestly, the way you describe your playstyle and expectations, I myself wonder if you'd be better off in a single player or a co-op RPG with a DM like Neverwinter Nights. People could also question my presence here with my constant referencing to PvP, but alas I'm here. As are you. As is the other guy you think belongs in WoW.
I think that's what makes these discussions so interesting, as well as difficult to come to any common understanding. What they've said they're doing in Pantheon is something that is hard to wrap our heads around because we've been repeatedly given a certain set of parameters and systems that have been dominating the genre for two decades. So we're kinda going to have to wait and see how the game starts shaping up to really start having these discussions with any sort of foundational basis or merit.
Kalok said:Except that it's not. The lower-level game is fun in and of itself. It's not JUST about the gaining power, which is exactly what your last paragraph is implying. It's exactly about what is said in my previous post. You're saying that the game is about "surviving the grind of the lower levels" to get to "the fun" at the upper levels. That's completely wrong-headed. If you're believing that, then WoW is going to be the best game for you, because that's exactly what WoW is. This game, Pantheon, is not that. It's closer to the opposite of that. There is "entertaining" content for all levels, thus obliterating the need to power-level to the highest level to have the "fun" content.
I'll make one more attempt and then assume we are not going to understand each other if it doesn't work. In my mind there is no difference between killing a level 10 mob with 1000hp at 20hp a hit, vs Level 20 mob with 2000hp at 40 damage a hit vs a level 50 mob with 5000hp at 100 damage at hit. The only difference is the story and the encounter design. As story and model creation takes a great deal longer to create than a table scaling numerical monster power I want to be able to be able to appropriately experience the story regardless of my level.
I do admit to saying level 1-30 is basically training to be your class and should be 1/10th to 1/4er of the time to get from 30-50. Level 1-30 is a glorified extended tutorial intended to introduce you to all aspects of Terminus but not really delve into its secrets. What may actually be more palatable to you is a really high starting power with all class abilities and at most doubling your power at maximum level. That way nearly everything is viable at all levels. It is very much a divergence from the Wow model or any other I am familiar with.
I would appreciate sticking to the forum guidelines of not using disparaging remarks pointed at each other and just respectfully to disagree on design philosophy.
Nevron said:Kalok said:Except that it's not. The lower-level game is fun in and of itself. It's not JUST about the gaining power, which is exactly what your last paragraph is implying. It's exactly about what is said in my previous post. You're saying that the game is about "surviving the grind of the lower levels" to get to "the fun" at the upper levels. That's completely wrong-headed. If you're believing that, then WoW is going to be the best game for you, because that's exactly what WoW is. This game, Pantheon, is not that. It's closer to the opposite of that. There is "entertaining" content for all levels, thus obliterating the need to power-level to the highest level to have the "fun" content.
You don't know that yet, because the game is not out. If the game is designed to make the entire game as engaging as the usual "end-game", then what you say will be accurate. However, if everything you've done and "earned" up until max level suddenly gets made trivial by hitting max level, then that goes against what you're saying.
And I'd wager that most MMO players are not RPers, or have a game-traversing continual back-story like you've set up for yourself, where you completely immerse yourself in the game world to the point where everything meta is irrelevant to you. Some of us can't/don't/will not ignore the meta.
Also, people not sharing your opinion on progression and so on does not mean they belong in WoW or some other MMO. This game is not being specifically designed for you. Honestly, the way you describe your playstyle and expectations, I myself wonder if you'd be better off in a single player or a co-op RPG with a DM like Neverwinter Nights. People could also question my presence here with my constant referencing to PvP, but alas I'm here. As are you. As is the other guy you think belongs in WoW.
I think that's what makes these discussions so interesting, as well as difficult to come to any common understanding. What they've said they're doing in Pantheon is something that is hard to wrap our heads around because we've been repeatedly given a certain set of parameters and systems that have been dominating the genre for two decades. So we're kinda going to have to wait and see how the game starts shaping up to really start having these discussions with any sort of foundational basis or merit.
We *DO* know that based on what they have said in the over ten hours of streams, plus all of their posts. Low-level isn't just for RPers.
Trasak said:Kalok said:Except that it's not. The lower-level game is fun in and of itself. It's not JUST about the gaining power, which is exactly what your last paragraph is implying. It's exactly about what is said in my previous post. You're saying that the game is about "surviving the grind of the lower levels" to get to "the fun" at the upper levels. That's completely wrong-headed. If you're believing that, then WoW is going to be the best game for you, because that's exactly what WoW is. This game, Pantheon, is not that. It's closer to the opposite of that. There is "entertaining" content for all levels, thus obliterating the need to power-level to the highest level to have the "fun" content.
I'll make one more attempt and then assume we are not going to understand each other if it doesn't work. In my mind there is no difference between killing a level 10 mob with 1000hp at 20hp a hit, vs Level 20 mob with 2000hp at 40 damage a hit vs a level 50 mob with 5000hp at 100 damage at hit. The only difference is the story and the encounter design. As story and model creation takes a great deal longer to create than a table scaling numerical monster power I want to be able to be able to appropriately experience the story regardless of my level.
I do admit to saying level 1-30 is basically training to be your class and should be 1/10th to 1/4er of the time to get from 30-50. Level 1-30 is a glorified extended tutorial intended to introduce you to all aspects of Terminus but not really delve into its secrets. What may actually be more palatable to you is a really high starting power with all class abilities and at most doubling your power at maximum level. That way nearly everything is viable at all levels. It is very much a divergence from the Wow model or any other I am familiar with.
I would appreciate sticking to the forum guidelines of not using disparaging remarks pointed at each other and just respectfully to disagree on design philosophy.
Here is where you keep losing me. In your first paragraph you talk about the math of levelling up, which has no bias one way or the other, and I get you 100% there. It's just the mathematic mechanics of levelling up, which has nothing really to do with if there is content to entertain or not, but at least I get it. Then in your second paragraph you lose me because you deviate from that math to say that the lower levels are NOTHING MORE than training levels to the end-game, which is absolutely NOT the case.
Kalok said:We *DO* know that based on what they have said in the over ten hours of streams, plus all of their posts. Low-level isn't just for RPers.
Don't get me wrong, I believe they're very passionate about what they want to deliver and that they'll try their best, but that doesn't mean it's going to fully transfer into the game, especially in the precise manner that you interpret their design intent. We won't know it until it's in playable form in front of us. Until then, they're words and hopes.
Nevron said:Kalok said:We *DO* know that based on what they have said in the over ten hours of streams, plus all of their posts. Low-level isn't just for RPers.
Don't get me wrong, I believe they're very passionate about what they want to deliver and that they'll try their best, but that doesn't mean it's going to fully transfer into the game, especially in the precise manner that you interpret their design intent. We won't know it until it's in playable form in front of us. Until then, they're words and hopes.
Given who their "Chief Creative Officer" is, and the amount of lore they have put into ONE CITY thus far, based on the "making of" video. My money is on them.
I'm not really sure what is being debated here ... but I will say this: Those who get to level cap first will have obvious advantages. They will have access to more content, more resources, but with less competition in that tier than you will ever see at any other point in the game. I'm sure there will be things to do at all stages of the game but it definitely can't "hurt" to be higher level, right? Is it easier to collect a full set of cold acclimation gear at level 25, or level 50? Is it easier to pay your way through max crafting as a level 25, or 50? Again, I understand there will be meaningful things to do throughout the entire game ... that's great ... but max level players will always have an edge when it comes to "vertical progression."
It's quite likely that they will also have an edge when it comes to horizontal progression due to their boost in vertical metrics. I am the kind of player that wants to make the most of my time and I am very hard pressed to believe that doing anything other than leveling will be the most efficient use of my time. I am sure there will be spells or quests that I will want to grab/complete along the way ... you know, two birds with one stone. But anything I miss, I can always come back and grab later, right? Until I see how the Rites of Passage works I will remain convinced that focusing on leveling will be the best use of my time. Progeny is a thing too ... an entire feature gated behind getting to max level.
I guess my point is this ... there will be things that can ONLY be done as a max level player. Will there be anything that can only be done as a level 10, 20, or 30? Even if there is, couldn't players mentor down and go through that content as a level appropriate character, while still enjoying the benefits of being a max level player as soon as they are done?
oneADseven said:I'm not really sure what is being debated here ... but I will say this: Those who get to level cap first will have obvious advantages. They will have access to more content, more resources, but with less competition in that tier than you will ever see at any other point in the game. I'm sure there will be things to do at all stages of the game but it definitely can't "hurt" to be higher level, right? Is it easier to collect a full set of cold acclimation gear at level 25, or level 50? Is it easier to pay your way through max crafting as a level 25, or 50? Again, I understand there will be meaningful things to do throughout the entire game ... that's great ... but max level players will always have an edge when it comes to "vertical progression."
It's quite likely that they will also have an edge when it comes to horizontal progression due to their boost in vertical metrics. I am the kind of player that wants to make the most of my time and I am very hard pressed to believe that doing anything other than leveling will be the most efficient use of my time. I am sure there will be spells or quests that I will want to grab/complete along the way ... you know, two birds with one stone. But anything I miss, I can always come back and grab later, right? Until I see how the Rites of Passage works I will remain convinced that focusing on leveling will be the best use of my time. Progeny is a thing too ... an entire feature gated behind getting to max level.
I guess my point is this ... there will be things that can ONLY be done as a max level player. Will there be anything that can only be done as a level 10, 20, or 30? Even if there is, couldn't players mentor down and go through that content as a level appropriate character, while still enjoying the benefits of being a max level player as soon as they are done?
I know they won't, but it wouldn't break my heart if they did something to block "burning through the content as fast as possible to get to the max level" simply because that's not the intent of this game according to what they have stated.
Kalok said:oneADseven said:I'm not really sure what is being debated here ... but I will say this: Those who get to level cap first will have obvious advantages. They will have access to more content, more resources, but with less competition in that tier than you will ever see at any other point in the game. I'm sure there will be things to do at all stages of the game but it definitely can't "hurt" to be higher level, right? Is it easier to collect a full set of cold acclimation gear at level 25, or level 50? Is it easier to pay your way through max crafting as a level 25, or 50? Again, I understand there will be meaningful things to do throughout the entire game ... that's great ... but max level players will always have an edge when it comes to "vertical progression."
It's quite likely that they will also have an edge when it comes to horizontal progression due to their boost in vertical metrics. I am the kind of player that wants to make the most of my time and I am very hard pressed to believe that doing anything other than leveling will be the most efficient use of my time. I am sure there will be spells or quests that I will want to grab/complete along the way ... you know, two birds with one stone. But anything I miss, I can always come back and grab later, right? Until I see how the Rites of Passage works I will remain convinced that focusing on leveling will be the best use of my time. Progeny is a thing too ... an entire feature gated behind getting to max level.
I guess my point is this ... there will be things that can ONLY be done as a max level player. Will there be anything that can only be done as a level 10, 20, or 30? Even if there is, couldn't players mentor down and go through that content as a level appropriate character, while still enjoying the benefits of being a max level player as soon as they are done?
I know they won't, but it wouldn't break my heart if they did something to block "burning through the content as fast as possible to get to the max level" simply because that's not the intent of this game according to what they have stated.
one way to slow leveling down is to put in systems lthat Stop loot from dropling from mobs that turn grey, it has been done in games before.
For example If you want certain peices of cold aclimation gear, and you have rushed to max level, BUT the mobs that drop some of your cold gear are level 30, Well your kind of screwed because they are Grey to you now and they wont drop loot for you. So you have a choise, Hope and prey someone Sells the peice of gear you need, *IF* its not Bop or make an Alt pr progeny.
I am sure some system like this could be put in place, it was worked pretty well in past games, and i am sure VR can put something like this in and improve on it.
Tiberius said:Kalok said:oneADseven said:I'm not really sure what is being debated here ... but I will say this: Those who get to level cap first will have obvious advantages. They will have access to more content, more resources, but with less competition in that tier than you will ever see at any other point in the game. I'm sure there will be things to do at all stages of the game but it definitely can't "hurt" to be higher level, right? Is it easier to collect a full set of cold acclimation gear at level 25, or level 50? Is it easier to pay your way through max crafting as a level 25, or 50? Again, I understand there will be meaningful things to do throughout the entire game ... that's great ... but max level players will always have an edge when it comes to "vertical progression."
It's quite likely that they will also have an edge when it comes to horizontal progression due to their boost in vertical metrics. I am the kind of player that wants to make the most of my time and I am very hard pressed to believe that doing anything other than leveling will be the most efficient use of my time. I am sure there will be spells or quests that I will want to grab/complete along the way ... you know, two birds with one stone. But anything I miss, I can always come back and grab later, right? Until I see how the Rites of Passage works I will remain convinced that focusing on leveling will be the best use of my time. Progeny is a thing too ... an entire feature gated behind getting to max level.
I guess my point is this ... there will be things that can ONLY be done as a max level player. Will there be anything that can only be done as a level 10, 20, or 30? Even if there is, couldn't players mentor down and go through that content as a level appropriate character, while still enjoying the benefits of being a max level player as soon as they are done?
I know they won't, but it wouldn't break my heart if they did something to block "burning through the content as fast as possible to get to the max level" simply because that's not the intent of this game according to what they have stated.
one way to slow leveling down is to put in systems lthat Stop loot from dropling from mobs that turn grey, it has been done in games before.
For example If you want certain peices of cold aclimation gear, and you have rushed to max level, BUT the mobs that drop some of your cold gear are level 30, Well your kind of screwed because they are Grey to you now and they wont drop loot for you. So you have a choise, Hope and prey someone Sells the peice of gear you need, *IF* its not Bop or make an Alt pr progeny.
I am sure some system like this could be put in place, it was worked pretty well in past games, and i am sure VR can put something like this in and improve on it.
It's called trivial loot code and I'm not sure what direction VR is leaning towards on that topic right now. Either way, players would be able to mentor down and kill a level 30 mob as a level 37 or whatever level is the highest that doesn't force the mob to con grey.