Kalok said:No. I'm saying that I don't think that "being extremely hardcore" or "being incredibly efficient" is going to get them there in a couple of months.
How long would you like to see it take for the average player and for the hardcore then? I'm curious, honestly.
Liav said:Kalok said:No. I'm saying that I don't think that "being extremely hardcore" or "being incredibly efficient" is going to get them there in a couple of months.
How long would you like to see it take for the average player and for the hardcore then? I'm curious, honestly.
I don't have all of the answers. That's why I'm not a game developer.....heheheh I think alot of it should depend on how often they are going to release expansion packs and what their level caps look like. They haven't even stated what the max level was going to be yet. They have stated, however, they have no plans to have anything like alternate advamcement on release. That implies that they. also, don't anticipate hitting max level caps very quickly.
Wandidar said:It's safe to say that some people will do all they can do in order to be "first" - in fact... given that a selling point of the game is that it should take a long time, I'm sure there will be folks out there who take it upon themselves to prove they can reach max in a ridiculously low amount of time.
I wouldn't even be surprised if some group or other set up a rotation of players to level a set of avatars 24 hours a day. I've seen such happen more than a few times in MMO's.
I have no doubt that people will try to "break the record". I just suspect that it won't turn out the way that they hope because they have saaid in multiple streams that the end-game isn't the goal.
im happy end game isnt the goal. i really dislike the "mash hardcore until max level, then gear grind for the next 5 years" meta. challenging content doesnt have to be designated or saved for the max levels. there can be lower level boss jewels/epic raids that people can make alts for farming. its crazy to remember all the alts i had for farming different epic raids/global events back in my old clan in lineage2. all the lower level grinding really made the community strong and friendships that last a long time.
NateDogg said:im happy end game isnt the goal. i really dislike the "mash hardcore until max level, then gear grind for the next 5 years" meta. challenging content doesnt have to be designated or saved for the max levels. there can be lower level boss jewels/epic raids that people can make alts for farming. its crazy to remember all the alts i had for farming different epic raids/global events back in my old clan in lineage2. all the lower level grinding really made the community strong and friendships that last a long time.
Another thing that I am excited for is that they stated that there would be multiple Epic Equests for multiple things, including abilities, and that some of these quests would have solo content and group content and not just group content.
NateDogg said:all the lower level grinding really made the community strong and friendships that last a long time.
I'm hoping I feel incentivized to repeat that process over and over with progeny. It definitely has its merits...though traveling around the world all together as a group everyday to kill raid mobs has its social merits as well. Similar yet different. I see the positives in both.
philo said:NateDogg said:all the lower level grinding really made the community strong and friendships that last a long time.
I'm hoping I feel incentivized to repeat that process over and over with progeny. It definitely has its merits...though traveling around the world all together as a group everyday to kill raid mobs has its social merits as well. Similar yet different. I see the positives in both.
They've stated, in one of the streams, that there would be "rewards" for participating in the Progeny and Mentoring systems. They didn't, however, say what those rewards would be.
In addition, they mentioned that a "traditionally low-level area" like the area outside of Thronefast was the example that they used, you would see high-level characters fighting high-level mobs in the same areas that low-level characters would be fighting low-level mobs.
Side Note: If it seems like I have alot of this info off of the top of my head, I have been re-watching the streams lately.
I don't mind a longer leveling time because typically in Brad's previous games, the raids were for the hardcore folks to enjoy and there was a ton of that content available, and the leveling process was something that the more casual audience invested their time in. I know I am repeating myself, but as long as that model is followed and leveling is an enjoyable process for those that spend time there, I think there will be plenty of game for everyone.
I agree, though, that trying to set arbritrary time numbers is difficult since there are so many variations in the amount of time people spend and the efficiency in which they group. In EQ I remember there would be smooth groups where you would ding twice in a night, and then you would get in a group that felt like it was a struggle to get a bubble of exp for whatever reason.
"The easy experimental answer to this question is 264 hours (about 11 days). In 1965, Randy Gardner, a 17-year-old high school student, set this apparent world-record for a science fair. Several other normal research subjects have remained awake for eight to 10 days in carefully monitored experiments. None of these individuals experienced serious medical, neurological, physiological or psychiatric problems. On the other hand, all of them showed progressive and significant deficits in concentration, motivation, perception and other higher mental processes as the duration of sleep deprivation increased. Nevertheless, all experimental subjects recovered to relative normality within one or two nights of recovery sleep." (J. Christian Gillin, professor of psychiatry at the University of California)
Knowing that, I'm hoping it takes less than 11 days. I'd also prefer significant resources be put into end-game content prior to release as opposed to more focus being placed on the journey, like SWTOR for example.
Louden said:"The easy experimental answer to this question is 264 hours (about 11 days). In 1965, Randy Gardner, a 17-year-old high school student, set this apparent world-record for a science fair. Several other normal research subjects have remained awake for eight to 10 days in carefully monitored experiments. None of these individuals experienced serious medical, neurological, physiological or psychiatric problems. On the other hand, all of them showed progressive and significant deficits in concentration, motivation, perception and other higher mental processes as the duration of sleep deprivation increased. Nevertheless, all experimental subjects recovered to relative normality within one or two nights of recovery sleep." (J. Christian Gillin, professor of psychiatry at the University of California)
Knowing that, I'm hoping it takes less than 11 days. I'd also prefer significant resources be put into end-game content prior to release as opposed to more focus being placed on the journey, like SWTOR for example.
They have already stated that "end game" will not be the goal of the game. Burning through to "get to the end" will not benefit you at all. In fact, they've stated that things like that will hamper you.
I prefer to not even notice level. I want to immerse myself into Pantheon the world. Otherwise it just becomes like every other MMO. Brad keeps posting he is building a world not a game.
So if you enter with the expectations of a end-game max level sprint, you will probably find yourself disappointed and discover this is not the game for you. But if you have ever wanted to feel like a part of the environment and find you call Pantheon your second life/home where the outside world does not exist, then you may find this is the place to be. Pantheon offers the chance to play an adventurer and make your own way through Terminus on your own path of choice instead of a cookie cutter question mark quest list of objectives. You may find you are more worried about your skill level casting your known spells or using your current 1h sword than what level number is reported in your character sheet. So I expect to not have any expectations on how fast/slow it takes to make the level number on my character sheet increase by one.
letsdance said:to the OP: as long as possible. i'd even prefer if there were artificial barriers (like a daily exp cap) that prevent people from rushing through lvls within a few days - maybe at least on special servers that could then be merged with others.
I would join such a server, though I think it does kind of punish the people with more time to play. I prefer to say that their rush to the end does not affect me and I'll let them play the way that they want to play and I will play the way that I want to play. The problem isn't generally with the hardcore guy that wants to cap in a couple days. It's with the dev that listens to him when he whines that they aren't putting out new content a month later.
Rubezahl said:letsdance said:to the OP: as long as possible. i'd even prefer if there were artificial barriers (like a daily exp cap) that prevent people from rushing through lvls within a few days - maybe at least on special servers that could then be merged with others.
I would join such a server, though I think it does kind of punish the people with more time to play. I prefer to say that their rush to the end does not affect me and I'll let them play the way that they want to play and I will play the way that I want to play. The problem isn't generally with the hardcore guy that wants to cap in a couple days. It's with the dev that listens to him when he whines that they aren't putting out new content a month later.
The real problem is when a game is designed in such a way that power gamers end up whining for new content within a month. MMO's need high replay value and the "end-game" needs to be a long term project that people can work on. If it's a super narrow and linear path to the end then yeah, people will beat it and run out stuff to do. There are tons of games out there that have amazing replay value and my hope is that Pantheon can bring it back to MMO's with horizontal progression and features like progeny.
They have already stated that "end game" will not be the goal of the game. Burning through to "get to the end" will not benefit you at all. In fact, they've stated that things like that will hamper you.
They're also incorporating raiding into the game's design. As a result, many guilds will be seeking the opportunity to compete for server and world firsts in defeating such end-game content. We likely don't share the same play style, nor do we need to for us both to enjoy the game. Regardless as to what has been stated, as a competitive raider and PvPer, I do see value in reaching end-game swiftly.
Finally, I listed less than 11 days as my response. An idividual playing eight hours a day, everyday, would require a minimum of 33 days to achieve 264 hours of play or 11 days. That is a relatively high time sink. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that in one of the streams/videos they recognized the real life time constraints of today's playerbase and stated they did not intend leveling to take as long as it did for simililar titles of the past.
Louden said:
They have already stated that "end game" will not be the goal of the game. Burning through to "get to the end" will not benefit you at all. In fact, they've stated that things like that will hamper you.
They're also incorporating raiding into the game's design. As a result, many guilds will be seeking the opportunity to compete for server and world firsts in defeating such end-game content. We likely don't share the same play style, nor do we need to for us both to enjoy the game. Regardless as to what has been stated, as a competitive raider and PvPer, I do see value in reaching end-game swiftly.
Finally, I listed less than 11 days as my response. An idividual playing eight hours a day, everyday, would require a minimum of 33 days to achieve 264 hours of play or 11 days. That is a relatively high time sink. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that in one of the streams/videos they recognized the real life time constraints of today's playerbase and stated they did not intend leveling to take as long as it did for simililar titles of the past.
You and I have very different definitions of the word value. Your definition seems to be "Bypass everything to be the first kid to do x like it's a competition." My definition is, "Experience as much as possible and have fun."
Yep. They said that they wwill have raid systems. They ALSO said that hign-end raiding wwasn't the goal of the game, and based on the videos I have seen, the high-end raiding content isn't JUST going to be based on your level. For instance, one area for high-end raiding, you're going to need to have environmental resist. The one they specifically showed in the videos was environmental cold. If you don't have that, the environment will kill you before you get to the raid content. They have mentioned, cold, heat, wind shear, pressure, mana, and a couple of other environmental factors that can kill you. I suspect that, like the cold one, these will be the heaviest around getting to the high-end raiding content. Good luck doing all of those high-end raids without what you need to even make it there.
It doesn't matter how many horizontal progression hoops you want people to jump through. It can be none, it can be a million. Someone will still do the content extremely fast relative to everyone else, as if it's a race, because it is a race.
Unless you want to delete the concept of world/server firsts from people's brains, that's just a reality you're going to have to deal with.
Are there going to be quests to get certain levels of acclimation? They will do it faster than you.
Are there going to be group mobs to farm to get acclimation? They will do it faster than you.
Are there going to be crafted resist sets you need to grind? They will do it faster than you.
Liav said:It doesn't matter how many horizontal progression hoops you want people to jump through. It can be none, it can be a million. Someone will still do the content extremely fast relative to everyone else, as if it's a race, because it is a race.
Unless you want to delete the concept of world/server firsts from people's brains, that's just a reality you're going to have to deal with.
Are there going to be quests to get certain levels of acclimation? They will do it faster than you.
Are there going to be group mobs to farm to get acclimation? They will do it faster than you.
Are there going to be crafted resist sets you need to grind? They will do it faster than you.
That's not the point at all. Of course there are going to be firsts. Duh.....
The point is that it's not going to be nearly as fast or as easy as these "Oh my god I have to get their first!!!!" people seem to think it's going to be. Faster DOES NOT mean that they will get there quickly. I can guarantee that there will people that do things faster than me. I can also guarantee that I will see some places before they do. I think nothing of taking a real-world week off of "adventuring" to go exploring, I did it more than once in Everquest, Everquest 2, and Vanguard. As the devs have said in almost every one of their videos, I am paraphrasing here, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey.
You keep speaking in absolutes while using words that only apply in a relative context. You do understand this, right?
Saying that things will not happen "quickly" is a meaningless statement on its own. In the context of a 5 year average, 1 year is relatively fast. In the context of a 1 year average, 2-3 months is relatively fast.
Repeating things that don't make sense doesn't cause them to suddenly start making sense.