Kittik said:Perma Death. You die you start over.
At level 10, you're offered a quest to gain the ability to revive with harsh penalty.
At max level, or a level before then you're offered another quest to gain the ability to lessen the penalty you recieve from death.
At mex level, (to encourage raiding) another quest is offered that lessen the penalty even more.
Ehh, maybe maybe not. I know harsh death penalties scare people. Everyone wants things to be easy and given to them. Heavens forbid it you make them work for it. "But we did work to earn that level, or get our charcter to such and such level." True, but that shouldn't mean just becase you get to a point should you no long have to stop caring for it.
I want a death penalty that is reasonable. If ppl thought deleveling was bad perma death would be infinately worse. Very very few ppl would play it and I think you know that so made the suggestion tongue in cheek. Ive played games like back when AOL ran neverwinter and there was an arena of sorts you could enter and if you died there you would die perma. One huge dif was that you could remake a char and get your lvls back in a weekend. I remember people taking 6 months to a year to get to 50th in EQ and to have a perma death would be over the top.
Bottom line is that if there is no deleveling for the top level there is no real penalty for zerging mobs. Paying a penalty like gear, money etc just wont do it. I NEVER had a problem with money and had plenty of crafters. The only thing I can think of that would be on par is if you could lose gear, but then would you make epic gear non lootable by the mobs? If so then again its not a real penalty. Its got to be something that hurts and having debt is zero of a deterrent to to zerging. EQ2 I had that exact mechanism and you know how many ppl cared about it? Not a single one in my guild. It meant nothing.
Other than that one thing the game is shaping up and looking great as far as Im concerned.
Yeah there isn't but a small handful of people that want or would deal with perma death. That's just not even in the cards I wouldn't think.
I think original EQ and kunark/velious era was the best way to handle death. It was there and definitely noticable, yet something you could overcome. I find myself ignoring resurrection sometimes on my wizard just because I will get it back in the amount of time it takes to run a cleric down and beg them for rez. I leave the corpse there with an item on it and if a cleric wanders by I get lucky if not I've made the exp loss up in a quad or two. I think losing levels should be in the game. I never felt more sorry for a guy who was bound in oasis and getting thrashed in a death loop by a spec or sand giant. However it never happened to me because I never bound in oasis. I knew better. So losing levels I think is something that should be put back on the table. Serious exp debt doesn't scare anyone. Not when they are max level.
I remember having to take time out of raiding life just to exp so I wouldn't lose my level when raiding. It is real and it is there and something to be dealt with. No less and no more to what it was in EQ is how I think it should be. Just my two cents though.
Permadeath - we used to call it "hardcore" - is always available. I have played it many times on many MMOs. Made it to maximum level without dying on all of them other than FFXIV.
Pantheon will be extremely difficult given the slow leveling and group-focus.
It is always available because all you need to do is decide to delete the character when he or she dies and then DO it.
An in-game mechanism has been included in quite a few games including some of the old Wizardry single-player games. I believe Wizardry 8 had a permadeath option. With a MMO its best to use willpower rather than an in-game mechanic because you REALLY don't want to lose a character forever because of a crash or major bug.
Kittik said:Perma Death. You die you start over.
At level 10, you're offered a quest to gain the ability to revive with harsh penalty.
At max level, or a level before then you're offered another quest to gain the ability to lessen the penalty you recieve from death.
At mex level, (to encourage raiding) another quest is offered that lessen the penalty even more.
Ehh, maybe maybe not. I know harsh death penalties scare people. Everyone wants things to be easy and given to them. Heavens forbid it you make them work for it. "But we did work to earn that level, or get our charcter to such and such level." True, but that shouldn't mean just becase you get to a point should you no long have to stop caring for it.
The problem with permadeath in an MMO is that death thru no fault of your own is already a significant possibility. You can be the most careful person whose planned out everything perfectly and all it takes is a 10 second blip on your internet connection and *poof*, everything's gone. That's fine in some types of games where you just restart and get back to essentially the same point in a few short hours. But if you've been playing for weeks or months it would be demoralizing as hell.
Not to mention that the progression of content in a permadeath game would leave the later levels fairly sparse of people to play with, which would be a heavy blow to a game meant for socialization. In fact, simply dying while in a group if friends would be so. Even building a group of friends with whom you regularly play would be.
Classic EQ1 lost of experience - corpse run - deleveled if death is just right after leveling.
A real harsh penalty would be like one of the first online games 'Island of Kesami" on compuservee 1984 - death = loss of level, loss of attributes (con, dex, agi) NPC's could loot your corpse - so you had not only to get your corpse but to hunt down what killed you to get back looted items and finally lair fights - dragons etc - equaled perm death - slamed back to Level 1 - this played at 6-dollars an hour - so the perm death could cost you thousands - now that was a death penalty!
Why does everyone think De-Leveling is such a big deal, i simply just don't get it honestly, if anything you'll lose your current level maybe once if that, and than your going to exp somewhere a little safe to get a good size buffer into you level and basically never lose it again, it holds basically no value to anyone who plays with their head on their shoulders. Perma Deaths? for one its an mmo and this could easily be a grieving mechanic due to see a high level charcter and trying to kill him especially if you realize he's afk somewhere, so that in itself is a no go in my book. Plus the game is suppose to be fun and adventuring into new places, and no one would do this or maybe at a very very slow pace to progress pass what they know they can grp pass til it gives them almost no exp at all. Honestly to me the Death penalty means basiocally nothing to me, for one im sure i will hardly ever, ever be effected by it, not saying i'm not going to die just saying you can make it like EQ and I'll max level, and keep it til they increase it, make it exp debt like they are talking as of right now and ill have all the debt paid off the next day just becuase i can, i can't quite figure out what all the stress is about as something so simply as death penalty, when most of the time dying in itself on every game i've ever played dying was so rare for me, Pantheon could change this and if anything i can definately it being a little bit more technical pulling instead of being completely mindless which is a great thing, But i don't see the death penalty being anything of a inconvennce for a very very little bit of time for basically 70% of the players so honestly why is their all of this fuss?
Riahuf22 said:Why does everyone think De-Leveling is such a big deal, i simply just don't get it honestly, if anything you'll lose your current level maybe once if that, and than your going to exp somewhere a little safe to get a good size buffer into you level and basically never lose it again, it holds basically no value to anyone who plays with their head on their shoulders. Perma Deaths? for one its an mmo and this could easily be a grieving mechanic due to see a high level charcter and trying to kill him especially if you realize he's afk somewhere, so that in itself is a no go in my book. Plus the game is suppose to be fun and adventuring into new places, and no one would do this or maybe at a very very slow pace to progress pass what they know they can grp pass til it gives them almost no exp at all. Honestly to me the Death penalty means basiocally nothing to me, for one im sure i will hardly ever, ever be effected by it, not saying i'm not going to die just saying you can make it like EQ and I'll max level, and keep it til they increase it, make it exp debt like they are talking as of right now and ill have all the debt paid off the next day just becuase i can, i can't quite figure out what all the stress is about as something so simply as death penalty, when most of the time dying in itself on every game i've ever played dying was so rare for me, Pantheon could change this and if anything i can definately it being a little bit more technical pulling instead of being completely mindless which is a great thing, But i don't see the death penalty being anything of a inconvennce for a very very little bit of time for basically 70% of the players so honestly why is their all of this fuss?
The most valuable thing a person can lose in a game is time. Basically that is what a death penalty is - it sets you back in the time spent doing the corpse run and regaining experience. Same with de-leveling - you lose the use of spells and maybe certain equipment until you can re-level. If you hunt the hard areas, push the limits of your level or raid a lot - you will die. Its about risk vs reward - sure you can play it safe and still max level - but you will miss out the challenges of hunting the hard critters and getting the best gear you cannot buy. A good game should have a good pucker factor - where death should scare you of the risk.
Suntrader said:Riahuf22 said:Why does everyone think De-Leveling is such a big deal, i simply just don't get it honestly, if anything you'll lose your current level maybe once if that, and than your going to exp somewhere a little safe to get a good size buffer into you level and basically never lose it again, it holds basically no value to anyone who plays with their head on their shoulders. Perma Deaths? for one its an mmo and this could easily be a grieving mechanic due to see a high level charcter and trying to kill him especially if you realize he's afk somewhere, so that in itself is a no go in my book. Plus the game is suppose to be fun and adventuring into new places, and no one would do this or maybe at a very very slow pace to progress pass what they know they can grp pass til it gives them almost no exp at all. Honestly to me the Death penalty means basiocally nothing to me, for one im sure i will hardly ever, ever be effected by it, not saying i'm not going to die just saying you can make it like EQ and I'll max level, and keep it til they increase it, make it exp debt like they are talking as of right now and ill have all the debt paid off the next day just becuase i can, i can't quite figure out what all the stress is about as something so simply as death penalty, when most of the time dying in itself on every game i've ever played dying was so rare for me, Pantheon could change this and if anything i can definately it being a little bit more technical pulling instead of being completely mindless which is a great thing, But i don't see the death penalty being anything of a inconvennce for a very very little bit of time for basically 70% of the players so honestly why is their all of this fuss?
The most valuable thing a person can lose in a game is time. Basically that is what a death penalty is - it sets you back in the time spent doing the corpse run and regaining experience. Same with de-leveling - you lose the use of spells and maybe certain equipment until you can re-level. If you hunt the hard areas, push the limits of your level or raid a lot - you will die. Its about risk vs reward - sure you can play it safe and still max level - but you will miss out the challenges of hunting the hard critters and getting the best gear you cannot buy. A good game should have a good pucker factor - where death should scare you of the risk.
You basically dodege my whole point i was making completely, i'm saying you could play it safe and get a good buffer in your exp bar and than start tackling the harder content and rinse, repeat depending on how successful your being, loss of exp, easy to make up, loss of level, easy to get back, corpse run, is basically the only thing that is a pain as it should be, reason why im still confused on why people making it seem like it this huge deal on how it is handle, when anyone using their head properly will hardly ever be affected by it.
oneADseven said: FFXI enabled deleveling. I played it for years and only deleveled a single time. I went from 75 to 74 and couldn't equip any of my raid gear. It was very harsh, and very appropriate. I should have gone into the raid with a higher XP buffer. Deleveling can help discourage zerg fests. It keeps players honest and instills a sense of danger that doesn't just go away upon reaching max level. It encourages players to continue grouping after cap just to maintain that XP buffer. The world will be a better place with this mechanic in it. If deleveling isn't on the table, the max level experience will be watered down unless XP is replaced with another commodity that players stand to lose upon death. We want the world to feel dangerous, but we also want players to explore, push the limits of their group, take chances, and make the most of the risk vs reward challenge in the game. It will be a beast to balance but eventually players will figure it out. Don't go into battle unprepared ... don't make careless decisions ... learn from your mistakes. If XP loss becomes trivial at max level, what else is there that will naturally reinforce all of that? No hand holding, please!
I understand what it can do but, for the most part this will hardly ever happen to anyone, with they realize they are getting low. I'm not saying there can't be loss of exp, becuase i'll get it back, not saying there can't be loss of level, becuase 95% chance i won't see it happening to me,(only 95% due to just getting lvl and than die right after), Corpse runs make sense and have been implemented and one of the biggest death penalties out there and i love it for it, so this can stay forever if you have my opinion on it. but everything else is basically fluff in my eyes and hold no value due to it probably having little effect on me.
Riahuf22 said:Why does everyone think De-Leveling is such a big deal, i simply just don't get it honestly
I don't. I think it adds a lot to the dynamic of risk/reward. It was always good to get that death buffer after you leveled. It makes levels matter more.
oneADseven said: But it will have an effect on you, and a constant one at that. If you rarely delevel, it's because you respect your environment and the penalty for death. That's what we need and what you are saying basically reinforces that it works. It isn't anything fancy or innovative ... just the tried and true death penalty that will always keep players in check.
I have no problem with deleveling. But, the argument of it increasing respect for the environment doesn't do it for me.
If a solid group is paying attention, it's all good. But, in my experience, most deaths come from helping others. Helping in PUGs, teaching someone to pull, helping out newbies, etc. YOU can be perfect and still die from another person's repeated mistakes.
Also, with raids being competitive to pull, we know there will be asshats training something on you just as you are getting ready to pull the boss. You may be fine a few times, but now its happened three times and your raid force can no longer wear its level appropriate gear. Raid night over.
Deleveling also discourages people from grouping within a few hours of raid time. How many raid leaders are going to be happy when you deleveled 30 minutes before raid form up?
I would encourage plenty of folks to group prior to raid time ... but they would be wise to play it safe and increase their XP buffer. That's just common sense. As far as dying while helping others goes ... it's true, but it also reinforces the importance of getting good, quality help. I remember having a hell of a time getting help for my level 40 AQ quest in FFXI. Even level 50s were hesitant to help because of how risky it was. That was one of my favorite quests of all time. Finishing it felt very gratifying ... the first couple times I went in there, my party wasn't nearly strong enough. I had to bring back up ... I needed veterans that were familiar with the area. I miss those days very much.
As far as getting trained during raids goes ... we will deal with that later. It's a planned mechanic for the game and I am good with it. **** happens when you play an open world contested game. That extra layer of risk is something I personally consider a reward. If people abuse the mechanic, they will be dealt with. Bring it on!
oneADseven said: I would encourage plenty of folks to group prior to raid time ... but they would be wise to play it safe and increase their XP buffer. That's just common sense. As far as dying while helping others goes ... it's true, but it also reinforces the importance of getting good, quality help. I remember having a hell of a time getting help for my level 40 AQ quest in FFXI. Even level 50s were hesitant to help because of how risky it was. That was one of my favorite quests of all time. Finishing it felt very gratifying ... the first couple times I went in there, my party wasn't nearly strong enough. I had to bring back up ... I needed veterans that were familiar with the area. I miss those days very much.
Having a strong guild helps substantially, but for PUGs or more casual guilds, great help is not often available. You have to do with what you can get.
oneADseven said: You played EQ2 Beef. Was there any reason to respect the world once you got max level? What impact did XP debt have on you? It was irrelevant. As long as you grinder that level of debt away right before the expansion, it meant nothing. Someone could literally play the game for months and months, dying over and over, and it made no difference on their game play other than some extra repair costs. The death penalty in EQ2 was pathetic for that very reason ... it was diminished at max level and thus made the world a less scary place just as I was preparing to go on epic adventures and deep dungeon crawls.
I understand where the desire for deleveling comes from. As I stated earlier, I am not against it. I have high play time and like to think high skill, so it will not hurt me much.
However, people need to understand not everyone is hard core and it affects different skill levels differently. For the high skill player, deleveling is not an issue. For the lesser skilled, with fewer friends, it's a much harsher, regressive penalty.
Also, tanks take the deaths a lot more than everyone else. For this reason, I prefer the original EQ2 idea of SHARED death penalty. When one player dies, the WHOLE group takes a share of the XP debt. Keeps those with Feign Death a little more honest and not be able to avoid the death penalties they cause from the poor pulls they do.
I do believe that without a death penalty, players would not respect the world around them
Death penalty helps to keep players on their toes.
At the same time I think we have to be reasonable;death can be the consequence of something outside the game;a disconnect,your pet,family matters etc
Finding a sweet spot ain't easy.
Death penalty could be a system that empowers the community,punishing players for trying is taking it too far I think.
Death penalty could encourage players to learn from mistakes
It could discourage groups from trying ,or make acceptance of failure easier
which would empower groups
Maybe the punishment of your own death could be influenced by how much you've sacrificed,how devoted you were to others when there was failure in your group
as the tenet says
*All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses*
oneADseven said: You played EQ2 Beef. Was there any reason to respect the world once you got max level? What impact did XP debt have on you? It was irrelevant. As long as you grinder that level of debt away right before the expansion, it meant nothing. Someone could literally play the game for months and months, dying over and over, and it made no difference on their game play other than some extra repair costs. The death penalty in EQ2 was pathetic for that very reason ... it was diminished at max level and thus made the world a less scary place just as I was preparing to go on epic adventures and deep dungeon crawls.
I hope you dont mind if I jump in with the fact that eq2 also has/had a diminishing exp debt mechanism so if you died you could log off and log back on it it could be all gone without EVER having to go out and do anything to get that exp back. As you said the eq2 death penalty meant nothing. Virtually every game is the same that is out there now. Thats one reason why this game with Brad being involved and they specifically said it was going to be a niche game for those gamers that miss the old eq experience. I loved eq and the fact it came out as a complete world on release. A city for every race. 3 continents many many classes/races. It was an unbelievable game. To me it was and still is 100x better than WOW has ever been and I played WOW with guilds 2 dif times to the end game at that point. Sure its nice to get the phat loot from the end zone bosses BUT you never felt much of anything. Big deal, wipe, come back, rinse and repeat until you got the strat down. In eq I can remember times when we lost levels in Hate for example. If I remember right you had to get a wizzy to port you there as druids couldnt do it and if you wiped it was almost impossible to get your corpse back. We had a few wipes we had to get other guilds to come in and help us. Now THAT is server cooperation. MMOs are all about working with the community and that was one mechanic that caused you to have to work with others. I can honestly say in eq2 my guilds RARELY needed outside help UNLESS we were short a required class for that raid/zone and you never had to worry about losing anything. Like you said the world is a MUCH MUCH less scary place when I can just run into a zone I know I have no business being in because there is no real deterrent. I remember in eq going into lesser fay the 1st time and conning something and it was bright red. I was like gd I need to get out of here as I obviously took a wrong turn. I was actually afraid to be in that zone. In eq2 I was NEVER afraid to be in ANY zone. In eq I would get that feeling in my stomach scouting out an area by myself not knowing what was there. I never looked up cheats or hints as I wanted to learn the game myself. That feeling of being someplace you could die at any time and have to make a corpse run by yourself gave me a feeling I have not felt in any game since.
This topic has come up quite a bit lately and I want to share a quote that some folks might find helpful. Please see the following quote from Joppa on May 2'nd, 2017:
"Loving the feedback everyone!
As a general note, I just want to reiterate that our Death system is still under heavy consideration. We may move towards de-leveling in the near future (I'm not opposed to it). We may end up with a hybrid, where a certain amount of EXP debt is accumulated before an actual de-level. Or we may stick with a pure EXP-debt system.
You can bank on us trying all 3 of these approaches, if not more, during Alpha and Beta testing before we make a final decision."
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6068/live-stream-05-02-feedback/view/page/1
Beefcake said:I prefer the original EQ2 idea of SHARED death penalty. When one player dies, the WHOLE group takes a share of the XP debt.
Wow, I didn't know that was a thing. I would Never Ever group with someone I was not familiar with if I took a penalty when they died. That sounds like a horrible mechanic.