Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Let's talk Death Penalty

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    • 21 posts
    June 11, 2018 2:32 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Venjenz said:

    azaya said:

    Read:=> The Death Penalty Mechanic and Loss Aversion in MMO Design

     Quote: "The death penalty mechanic is probably one of the most important and underappreciated mechanics in MMO history. Few designers fully understand and leverage it. Most players despise it. But without it, the MMORPG would lose all meaning and purpose."

    Nuf said.

    -Az

     

    Good enough that it bears quoting and repeating.

    The death penalty is what separates EQ1 (PVE) and EVE (PVP) from every other MMO in existence. 

    This is so important to drive home it needs repeating as often as possible when the topic of death penalty comes up. The death penalty needs to be at least as harsh as EQ1, the only easing should come in the form of corpse summoning being available at earlier levels than it was in EQ1. Corpse summoning should still be an exclusive class ability for Necros. If death is not inconvienant and an obstacle it will not feel like a victory when you overcome it. If you absolutely can not tolerate a significant penalty for death there are literally dozens of other games out there that do not have harsh consequences for failure.

    • 1479 posts
    June 11, 2018 3:04 PM PDT

    Well, with messed up quotes, what I said is not even in your post. That's quite confusing but I think you took a part of our inserted quotes and lost the other.

    • 228 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:28 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    How would you describe the perfect Death Penalty in an MMORPG, and how would you like to see it implemented into Pantheon?

    Corpse runs, no graveyards, XP loss, no deleveling but XP debt.

    That said, there ought to be ways for a group with sufficient player skill to get out of an emergency before a wipe occurs. Not a Feign Death for all classes, but maybe a class can have an evac with a huge mana cost and a long cool-down, or maybe mobs didn't always chase you all across the zone. 

    If you engage a boss for the first time, knowing nothing about its trickery and disposition, there's a huge risk of a wipe because you're unknowingly applying unsuitable tactics. But you didn't do anything stupid or reckless enough to deserve a severe penalty. All you did was investigate the world and its contents.

    It's the indifference and carelessness invariably resulting from too mild a penalty we want to reduce, not the urge to explore and try difficult things.


    This post was edited by Jabir at September 19, 2018 6:36 AM PDT
    • 96 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:35 AM PDT

    Jabir said:

     

    Corpse runs, no graveyards, XP loss, no deleveling but XP debt.

     

     

    If there is no deleveling then how does a death penatly really impact a max level player? The fear would be gone once you reached max level. imo

    • 441 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:37 AM PDT

    Not a fan of exp loss unless its small. I find groups learning tend to try things less the more they lose. IMO if there is an exp loss, it should scale, higher the level the greater the exp loss. Also, tools change as you level, clerics with exp res and the like. Where at lower level you don’t always have the tools to deal with this. My point is you should not have a death and its like nothing happened but people learning the game need to be able to learn the game and not want to rage quit because they lost a few nights worth of level (sometimes the fault of joining the wrong group). 

    • 228 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:41 AM PDT

    Pilch said:

    If there is no deleveling then how does a death penatly really impact a max level player? The fear would be gone once you reached max level. imo

    Good point, and I have no answer. I've never played for long at max level, myself. I prefer to roll an alt. The reason I spoke against deleveling is the potential hassle with newly acquired abilities and gear, but if that can be solved in an elegant way, I see no problem.


    This post was edited by Jabir at September 19, 2018 6:43 AM PDT
    • 441 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:44 AM PDT

    Pilch said:

    Jabir said:

     

    Corpse runs, no graveyards, XP loss, no deleveling but XP debt.

     

     

    If there is no deleveling then how does a death penatly really impact a max level player? The fear would be gone once you reached max level. imo

    When an expansion comes out, you have to lose the debt or fall behind. 

    • 96 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:52 AM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

     

    When an expansion comes out, you have to lose the debt or fall behind. 

     

    That is a cool idea. Is that how it worked in EQ? I never played EQ so I'm not sure

     

     

    @Jabir,

    Yes, I know what you mean. It sucks to get a new piece of gear, sell your old stuff, then delevel. LOL

    But I recall reading somewhere that equipment will be useable by all levels with some sort of scaling? I could be wrong on that


    This post was edited by Pilch at September 19, 2018 6:55 AM PDT
    • 945 posts
    September 19, 2018 6:58 AM PDT

    Pilch said:

    Nanfoodle said:

     

    When an expansion comes out, you have to lose the debt or fall behind. 

     

    That is a cool idea. Is that how it worked in EQ? I never played EQ so I'm not sure

    You lost levels in Vanilla EQ.  I think they nurfed it when people were becoming well geared and then intentionally losing levels to completely obliterate lower level content that was level locked but still dropped relevant loot (like Dragons that you couldn't fight after level 52, or on PvP servers the level range of PvP was 4 lvls below and 4 lvls above).  I remember a raid geared/epic monk being in his 30's on Tallon Zek absolutely destroying players and guards like he was a raid boss lol.

    • 96 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:07 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    You lost levels in Vanilla EQ.  I think they nurfed it when people were becoming well geared and then intentionally losing levels to completely obliterate lower level content that was level locked but still dropped relevant loot (like Dragons that you couldn't fight after level 52, or on PvP servers the level range of PvP was 4 lvls below and 4 lvls above).  I remember a raid geared/epic monk being in his 30's on Tallon Zek absolutely destroying players and guards like he was a raid boss lol.

     

    Wow, I did not even consider that kind of outcome. Definitely think they would need to figure a way to control that or just nix the deleveling function. I like the idea of building up the exp debt that could come back to haunt you later on when a level cap increase occurs.

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:15 AM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:Not a fan of exp loss unless its small. I find groups learning tend to try things less the more they lose. IMO if there is an exp loss, it should scale, higher the level the greater the exp loss. Also, tools change as you level, clerics with exp res and the like. Where at lower level you don’t always have the tools to deal with this. My point is you should not have a death and its like nothing happened but people learning the game need to be able to learn the game and not want to rage quit because they lost a few nights worth of level (sometimes the fault of joining the wrong group).

    This. :\ I have a hard time imagining how I could possibly have fun with raiding or dungeons or just seeking out new challenges in general, with the frustration of XP loss constantly hanging over my head.

    • 153 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:16 AM PDT

    If you die, the character is unplayable until ressurected, this will prevent people littering areas with corpses, and enforce good behaivior.

    • 3852 posts
    September 19, 2018 7:57 AM PDT

    Rather than preventing loss of levels - reduce the benefits of gear as your level goes down or impose a minimum level for the equipping of powerful items. Strip it off if your level goes below that minimum level. Let the raid-geared epic monk fight naked if he or she went back to being in the 30s.

    In terms of Nanfoodle's comment - the key part is "unless it is small". The penalty needs to be relatively small so that if a group wipes a few times it still can at least break even for the day. If it accomplishes anything. If it keeps wiping and never succeeeds - well there can be no good without evil and there isn't much feeling of accomplishment for success if failure is painless.

    On the reference to people learning the game - I agree again. Have no xp penalty at early levels or if you wan't to acclimate people to game mechanics early on (perhaps a better idea) have resurrection at low level return almost all of the xp lost or have the penalty at low level so small that one or two kills will get the xp back. Anyone that rage quits because death means they need to kill one extra pig isn't very stable.

    • 363 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:13 AM PDT

    Don't make stupid mistakes and you won't die as often. Its called learning from your mistakes and the original EQ did this right. Done. 

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:30 AM PDT

    Bronsun said:Don't make stupid mistakes and you won't die as often. Its called learning from your mistakes and the original EQ did this right. Done.

    In every MMO I've ever played, being unphased by wiping over and over on a fight has always been viewed as the mark of a dedicated player. It's perceived as signifying you're willing to work hard to achieve your goals in the game. Those who fear dying and who shy away at the first sign of trouble in a group are viewed in a more negative light. You don't want to be the person who leaves after one or two wipes, as that marks you as someone who doesn't want to put in any effort.

    Perhaps knowing that context, you can begin to understand why I simply do not see a "fear of a death penalty" as a meaningful, positive addition to my game experience. I have died probably hundreds of thousands of times (millions maybe? who knows) over my years of dedicated raiding. All those wipes make the eventual victory over a boss deliciously sweet, when you and your team finally demonstrate working together like a well-oiled machine to deal with the complex mechanics thrown at you. The threat of XP loss (or worse, de-leveling) would tarnish that future victory and would especially dampen my spirits while learning an encounter. Would it be enough to get me to quit entirely? I'm not sure, but I am sure that it would add nothing beneficial to my experience.

    • 96 posts
    September 19, 2018 11:39 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Bronsun said:Don't make stupid mistakes and you won't die as often. Its called learning from your mistakes and the original EQ did this right. Done.

    In every MMO I've ever played, being unphased by wiping over and over on a fight has always been viewed as the mark of a dedicated player. It's perceived as signifying you're willing to work hard to achieve your goals in the game. Those who fear dying and who shy away at the first sign of trouble in a group are viewed in a more negative light. You don't want to be the person who leaves after one or two wipes, as that marks you as someone who doesn't want to put in any effort.

    Perhaps knowing that context, you can begin to understand why I simply do not see a "fear of a death penalty" as a meaningful, positive addition to my game experience. I have died probably hundreds of thousands of times (millions maybe? who knows) over my years of dedicated raiding. All those wipes make the eventual victory over a boss deliciously sweet, when you and your team finally demonstrate working together like a well-oiled machine to deal with the complex mechanics thrown at you. The threat of XP loss (or worse, de-leveling) would tarnish that future victory and would especially dampen my spirits while learning an encounter. Would it be enough to get me to quit entirely? I'm not sure, but I am sure that it would add nothing beneficial to my experience.

     

    I would think a death penalty would make the victory you speak about so much more rewarding, no? I personally would not feel nearly as proud of myself and group if we were able to just keep wiping and retrying dozens of times. And I also think that a truly dedicated gamer is the one that will keep wiping and retrying, even with the death penalty, until they succeed.

     

    Even a blind squirrel will find a nut every once in a while... and that is how I always felt about the current MMO raids where you can wipe and wipe and wipe, eventually you will beat it.


    This post was edited by Pilch at September 19, 2018 11:42 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 19, 2018 12:39 PM PDT

    As someone who has been on both sides of the fence, I can tell you that I strongly prefer a world where there is a meaningful penalty for death.  I spent years playing EQ2 where there were incredibly complex encounter mechanics that required tons and tons of wipes before you could master the various encounters.  While I definitely enjoyed beating these encounters, that type of experience paled in comparison to what I felt in FFXI.  The encounters weren't as complex but the penalty for death was much more significant.  There has to be a sting to the death penalty or it won't be respected, especially at max level.  I think it's very reasonable to tone down the DDR (Dance Dance Revolution) mechanics a bit while preserving that meaningful penalty.  Victory shouldn't feel like "I beat my head against the wall enough times and we finally put a hole in it!"  Don't get me wrong ... I look forward to challenging encounter mechanics, but I think the genre has taken it too far.  Development teams didn't really have much of a choice because that was the "new way" to challenge the playerbase once the real death penalties were removed.  Here is a great article that explains the old school death penalties and why loss aversion is so important in an MMO:

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 1:12 PM PDT

    Pilch said:Even a blind squirrel will find a nut every once in a while... and that is how I always felt about the current MMO raids where you can wipe and wipe and wipe, eventually you will beat it.

    Isn't that just the process of learning something? You try until you figure it out. I don't see how this is a bad thing at all.

    To answer your question, no - the negative experience triggered by having to deal with the death penalty would, at least for me, overwhelm the positive experience of working and achieving an encounter. "Well, I just killed this boss, but now I have to go farm boring mobs for hours to get my XP back. Joy." Instead I'd rather it be, "Awesome, we finally killed the boss! What's the next challenge?" (Or even just, "Yeah! Let's do it again!")


    This post was edited by Naunet at September 19, 2018 1:24 PM PDT
    • 19 posts
    September 19, 2018 1:22 PM PDT

    Share exp loss with the group (and anyone who joined or left the group within 2 mins)

    Why is it some classes benefit from practically never dying while others have to die for the team on a regular basis

    Debt system with no de-leveling

    Revive with gear or be rezed with exp penalty (same as EQ1)

     

    • 96 posts
    September 19, 2018 1:57 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    Isn't that just the process of learning something? You try until you figure it out. I don't see how this is a bad thing at all.

    To answer your question, no - the negative experience triggered by having to deal with the death penalty would, at least for me, overwhelm the positive experience of working and achieving an encounter. "Well, I just killed this boss, but now I have to go farm boring mobs for hours to get my XP back. Joy." Instead I'd rather it be, "Awesome, we finally killed the boss! What's the next challenge?" (Or even just, "Yeah! Let's do it again!")

    Yes, the more you do something the better you will get at it but there should be some sort of penalty for failing.

    I understand why you say you wont like the death penalty because of how much you wipe in current MMOs, and frankly, I wouldnt like the death penalty in those games either because they are designed to throw you into raids where you wipe A LOT... I think VR can improve on that formula, mixing some of the old mechanics of raids with mechanics of current raids to make something that is hard but not designed to be a wipe fest.

    I find that bosses of raids and dungeons end up being just as boring to fight as the normal mobs in the world... possibly even more boring/tedious because some of them have annoying mechanics. 

     

     

     

    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 2:08 PM PDT

    Pilch said:I understand why you say you wont like the death penalty because of how much you wipe in current MMOs, and frankly, I wouldnt like the death penalty in those games either because they are designed to throw you into raids where you wipe A LOT... I think VR can improve on that formula, mixing some of the old mechanics of raids with mechanics of current raids to make something that is hard but not designed to be a wipe fest.

    What worries me is that if bosses are designed so that you DON'T wipe a lot, we'll end up with encounters that are just too boring. If the mechanics of combat (i.e. playing your class) are engaging enough, that could make up for it, but we also know that the combat itself is going to be fairly slow paced. I've got enough raiding experience under my belt, that simple boss mechanics I can easily learn on the fly, which means it takes significant complexity to provide sufficent, engaging challenge. If we were all brand new to MMOs, that would be one thing, but we're not.


    This post was edited by Naunet at September 19, 2018 2:08 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    September 19, 2018 2:20 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    As someone who has been on both sides of the fence, I can tell you that I strongly prefer a world where there is a meaningful penalty for death.  I spent years playing EQ2 where there were incredibly complex encounter mechanics that required tons and tons of wipes before you could master the various encounters.  While I definitely enjoyed beating these encounters, that type of experience paled in comparison to what I felt in FFXI.  The encounters weren't as complex but the penalty for death was much more significant.  There has to be a sting to the death penalty or it won't be respected, especially at max level.  I think it's very reasonable to tone down the DDR (Dance Dance Revolution) mechanics a bit while preserving that meaningful penalty.  Victory shouldn't feel like "I beat my head against the wall enough times and we finally put a hole in it!"  Don't get me wrong ... I look forward to challenging encounter mechanics, but I think the genre has taken it too far.  Development teams didn't really have much of a choice because that was the "new way" to challenge the playerbase once the real death penalties were removed.  Here is a great article that explains the old school death penalties and why loss aversion is so important in an MMO:

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

     

    Very interesting article, thanks. It does really sum up my opinion on the matter with of course, a lot more depth and searches !

    • 696 posts
    September 19, 2018 2:38 PM PDT

    I think people are fairly divided on this issue. So maybe a ruleset between different servers on this are the way to go. I know, for myself, I played games where exp was the only thing lost, like current progression servers for EQ and never really cared about the world after that.

    I think in all my time playing I lost one corpse at lvl 6 or 7 when my dad and I tried to go from Qeynos to Freeport and griffions killed us, and then my Beastlords corpse before they added graveyards. Lower lvl I didn't really care since I just had cloth and a rusty sword, so I just punched a skelly with a weapon and began getting my stuff back. After that 7 days corpse retrevial was more than enough time. Also had a back up set of gear in my bank just in case. Made me play much smarter and fearing to go to certain places made the world feel soo much bigger. I think when you are scared of your surroundings you tend to be more immersed and take in your surroundings in a more potent way.

    • 752 posts
    September 19, 2018 2:46 PM PDT
    I didnt ever consider the fact that once you hit max level the exp debt would only matter if they increased levels down the road.....
    • 646 posts
    September 19, 2018 3:05 PM PDT

    Watemper said:I think people are fairly divided on this issue. So maybe a ruleset between different servers on this are the way to go.

    That'd be fine with me!