I like the idea getting different rulesets about death mechanisms.
I'd like to make a comment about rez spells : I think there should be a single percentage of xp returned whatever the class of the caster, cause in EQ everyone refused being rezzed by anyone that was not a cleric not to loose to much xp. That could be a good idea all the rez spells returning the same xp percentage but getting differences on rez application : combat / non combat, immediate / delayed, different percentages of health returned when revived, different delays before getting rezzed again, different recast times, etc ... we could also imagine conditions on biomes or climate, or an anticipated rez spell casted when the player is still alive and prevent him from dying once.
I'm no fan of CR cause they are far more of a penalty for players with low playtime than for players with high playtime and I do not believe to its "social" role, I just think that players are or are not social by nature. Pantheon is focused on group, most of its content will require a group to be achieved, it is enough to attract players that enjoy socializing and cooperation, there is no need to make them prove they are social players at any second.
Though if CR are on the table; I'd like to suggest corpse summoning spell being open to more classes/races than only necro-likes, maybe also with some creativity, Dark Myrs could be able to summon a corpse that was underwater for example, rangers to summon a corpse into a deep forest zone, etc ...
Recall in EQ1; when you handed in a book to the Priest of Discord you became Perma-PvP.
Well, what if instead of becoming Perma-PvP, handing in said item would perma-flag you as "Gear Left on Corpse"? Meaning thereafter when they die, all of their gear is left on their corpse; and in exchange, they get an exp bonus, or some such other perma-bonus. Those who don't complete that quest, have a more forgiving Death Penalty (or vice versa).
The specifics of the various forms of death penatly and/or bonus given, can be chewed on ad astra; I just wanted to highlight the idea of making the options an in-game perma-choice based on a quest.
Finbar said:Recall in EQ1; when you handed in a book to the Priest of Discord you became Perma-PvP.
Well, what if instead of becoming Perma-PvP, handing in said item would perma-flag you as "Gear Left on Corpse"? Meaning thereafter when they die, all of their gear is left on their corpse; and in exchange, they get an exp bonus, or some such other perma-bonus. Those who don't complete that quest, have a more forgiving Death Penalty (or vice versa).
The specifics of the various forms of death penatly and/or bonus given, can be chewed on ad astra; I just wanted to highlight the idea of making the options an in-game perma-choice based on a quest.
Interesting idea, but the first thing that comes to mind to me is: -
/ooc Looking for more group member for HalnirsCave lower levels. Someone with resurrect. No one that has elected corpse runs, though. We don't want to all wait for ages just because you died...
Raroic said:I am for a death penalty like EQ had. I dont mind the exp loss or a corpse run. However when PoP was released they released graveyards as well where after 15 minutes if I recall your corpse would spawn at the graveyard. I am not totally against that aspect either. It also depends on if classes will have a summon corpse ability like the necros and sk's did back in the day. I would be in favor of a mixture of all 3.
Pretty much Raroic stated I am thinking the same thing for myself.
Rogues had sneak/hide in original vanilla EQ1. Necromancers and SKs got Summon Corpse (uses the 207pp reagent) and Necros got Conjure Corpse (uses the 78pp reagent) in Kunark.
Additionally, monks got clicky Feign Death as an ability in vanilla. All of these mechnaics could get a corpse from almost anywhere in the game in no time flat, it just required patience and some amount opf money/goodwill. EQ1 managed to get through almost 4 years before the Plane of Knowledge and the graveyard mechanic. No in game map, no mini map, no way to easily defeat the corpse recovery mechanic...and it lasted 400k players almost 4 years.
If I may be so bold as to offer an opinion - methinks suporters of a game that was originally and continually billed as a return to old school MMO gaming will be able to successfully overcome whatever challenges even a pure old school EQ1 death penalty might present. I am confident in that opinion because all of the old school folks who played EQ1 and seek a return to that type of gaming did, in fact, play the game quite successfully for a long time without any helpful corpse recovery mechanics like graveyards, NPC summoners, etc.
I have faith that the fine folks at VR do understand their intended audience and will provide a properly rewarding and challenging death penalty mechanic.
This is just my opinion, mine alone and does not represent anyone else, intentionally or otherwise.
No reason not to offer an opinion boldly - all of the rest of us do.
I too have faith in VR and its understanding of its intended audience. Which requires balancing what the people here want (driven partly by nostalgia) but also what will attract significant numbers of newer players that want a more challenging and social game but do *not* have any nostalgia for EQ.
I have no confidence I know how they will resolve the issue. I have no confidence I know how they *should* resolve the issue. All I really know are my own preferences which may or may not be the best approach for the game to succeed.
I fall back on my own basic tenet of Pantheon creation. I expect some things to be as I wish. I expect other things to be *not* as I wish. This is the way of thew world since I don't happen to own VR. If Pantheon is a significant improvement over current MMOs I will be happy and will try to focus on the former and not bewail the latter.
Kilsin said:How would you describe the perfect Death Penalty in an MMORPG, and how would you like to see it implemented into Pantheon?
Painful enough to make me fear death. It's that fear that brings excitement to the adventures the game will offer.
Ah, death penalty! This is such a huge topic that often produces strong feelings in others. I have to say that I don't like death penalties, but---BRING IT! For me, without the fear of death then the game seems too watered down. Bring on the corpse runs with the loss of gear and the loss of experience. Does this take up a lot of time? It can, if you aren't careful, are prone to dying often, or are in a high risk area. As a person who has a fulltime job, family, outside activities, I'm still ok with that and would accept those penalties as part of a challenging and engaging game. I know some folks hate the thought of de-leveling, and my only other thought on that matter would be: What if instead of loosing an already earned level, your experience would start collecting in the negative? For instance, I am 50 points into level 23 and I just died. The experience loss pentalty is 55. I am still level 23 but am now -5 points...meaning it will now take me a little longer to get to 24. That way, any gear or areas that may have a level resitriction will not be lost to me. If that makes sense.
Anyway, I can elaborate later if need be, as I'm writing this quickly while on lunch break and am nearly out of time. :P
It has been said by Brad and others that
"If the death penalty is too severe it will deter players from exploring and trying new content"
I would like to question the validity of that statement and ask where exactly IS that point? As I think it's overused and exaggerated.
I say this base on early EQ and Plane of Fear. You had gear loss corpse rot, you had DE leveling, you had experience loss... and you also had no shortage of players ready and willing to take on FEAR. We also repeatedly have players wanting to recapture that great experience. I knew people that wanted to be sure they had enough buffer in their level incase things wen bad, I never knew of even one that didn't want to go.
On the other hand I played a rpg once that had "permadeath" to my understanding when you died, you died... roll a new character and start over from level 1. THAT indeed made me fear exploring too much. I'm not sure what happened when you died as I never did, but I also never made max level and quit playing.. so there is indeed a limit. But where actually is that limit.
I think even early EQ is not it.
Aanwenae said:Ah, death penalty! This is such a huge topic that often produces strong feelings in others. I have to say that I don't like death penalties, but---BRING IT! For me, without the fear of death then the game seems too watered down. Bring on the corpse runs with the loss of gear and the loss of experience. Does this take up a lot of time? It can, if you aren't careful, are prone to dying often, or are in a high risk area. As a person who has a fulltime job, family, outside activities, I'm still ok with that and would accept those penalties as part of a challenging and engaging game. I know some folks hate the thought of de-leveling, and my only other thought on that matter would be: What if instead of loosing an already earned level, your experience would start collecting in the negative? For instance, I am 50 points into level 23 and I just died. The experience loss pentalty is 55. I am still level 23 but am now -5 points...meaning it will now take me a little longer to get to 24. That way, any gear or areas that may have a level resitriction will not be lost to me. If that makes sense.
Anyway, I can elaborate later if need be, as I'm writing this quickly while on lunch break and am nearly out of time. :P
It sounds like you're talking about Experience debt. If you go back and read all 25 pages of this post (I know, I know) you'll see that re-hashed back and forth.
Zorkon said:It has been said by Brad and others that
"If the death penalty is too severe it will deter players from exploring and trying new content"
I would like to question the validity of that statement and ask where exactly IS that point? As I think it's overused and exaggerated.
I've said it elsewhere, but I agree with your question and I think that quoted statement is invalid. I believe the purpose of the death penalty is to make people fear content and respect death (not so much to die only to be punished, but there has to be some level of penalty that makes people respect it), and, if the death penalty is keeping people from willing to "risk" content at the sake of death, then I believe the penalty is working as intended. Either the most skilled will try to tackle the content and be rewarded for that risk, or, others will try once the risk level decreases - either through knowledge from other players experience, better gear, future expansions, etc. And, even if some fail and become frustrated by the difficulty of the content/encounters/risk, that is what makes people respect and appreciate the game world versus being able to blow through trivial content.
The idea of going into experience point debt rather than losing a level, so that you aren't restricted in what content you can do strikes me a an ...imperfectly good idea.
Death needs to hurt - we have an active debate on whether permanent loss of items is the right way to make it hurt but almost no dispute that it *does* need to hurt.
Compared to permanent loss of valuable items, going back to lower level content because *you* are now lower level is a rather minor pain.
I think deleveling is definitely a good idea as a minimum. Getting back to the prior level just takes some time - and not much time unless you have died fairly often.
The more I read this thread the more I second-guess my own opinion that permanent loss of items is too harsh. Maybe item loss is the way to go, but with a *very* limited number of exceptionally hard to replace items excepted. As in you can lose your bra +3 but not the epic panties that took 151 quest completions and selling your soul to the Dark One to get.
Raidan said:And, even if some fail and become frustrated by the difficulty of the content/encounters/risk, that is what makes people respect and appreciate the game world versus being able to blow through trivial content.
False equivalence. You can have difficult content that "makes people respect and appreciate the game world" without having an overly punitive death penalty.
Every one of us agrees that we should not have an "overly punitive death penalty". Maybe we should stop at that point - its nice to have total agreement with no acrimony.
Alas, moving on to what *is* overly punitive is divisive.
Is it overly punitive to have mandatory character deletion (permadeath)? Almost all will say "yes" though some will say that this is a great idea for a permadeath ruleset server.
Is it overly punitive to have permanent loss of items? A bit less unanimity here.
Is it overly punitive to preclude playing the character until a naked corpse run is made - even if the death is in a spot really hard to get to and even if the player had to log off and is faced with making the run with no help from the group that met ...misadventure? A bit less unanimity here too.
Is it overly punitive to have experience point loss including loss of level? Surprise .... no unanimity here either.
Is it overly punitive to have experience loss with no loss of level, to have expensive item repair, to have temporary (but not trivially short) debuffs etc. etc. Now we are in the range of most people saying "no" though I doubt this is unanimous either.
Zyellinia said:Raidan said:And, even if some fail and become frustrated by the difficulty of the content/encounters/risk, that is what makes people respect and appreciate the game world versus being able to blow through trivial content.
False equivalence. You can have difficult content that "makes people respect and appreciate the game world" without having an overly punitive death penalty.
I think the words you're looking for isn't "false equivalence", but "I disagree".
If the penalty isn't severe enough, I and many others will absolutely not respect and appreciate the game world as much as we would otherwise. That's as true for me and those like me, as it is true for you that you don't need those same penalties.
At one time this thread had a much higher level. Alas, it has died and been brought back many times and its level is now lower.
At one time this thread prided itself on the attributes of logic, civility, amity and perfect agreement. Alas, the thread is not very good at corpse runs and has lost many of its attributes.
Let all witness this thread and know the fear of death.
Read:=> The Death Penalty Mechanic and Loss Aversion in MMO Design
Quote: "The death penalty mechanic is probably one of the most important and underappreciated mechanics in MMO history. Few designers fully understand and leverage it. Most players despise it. But without it, the MMORPG would lose all meaning and purpose."
Nuf said.
-Az
I've always liked EQ's system.
A loss of experience when you die. [Remember the curled up death position and death knell bells ringing-from the early game?]
A corpse run: a very good way then to remind you to get a bind at location close to where you intended to be hunting or raiding. Forces you to learn your locations and topography too-find your self quickly. [Personally hope there is no 'golden wisps leading you to find it]
A time limit on retrieving your corpse or loose your gear. The only GM intervention if it's beyond your control, i.e. server crash, game bug [unload loot in bank occasionaly to lessen the loss]
If there are graveyards: limit their placement to Planes style raids, so as not to hold up raid parties.
Throw in a couple of Hell Levels :)
azaya said:Read:=> The Death Penalty Mechanic and Loss Aversion in MMO Design
Quote: "The death penalty mechanic is probably one of the most important and underappreciated mechanics in MMO history. Few designers fully understand and leverage it. Most players despise it. But without it, the MMORPG would lose all meaning and purpose."
Nuf said.
-Az
Good enough that it bears quoting and repeating.
The death penalty is what separates EQ1 (PVE) and EVE (PVP) from every other MMO in existence.
Venjenz said:azaya said:Read:=> The Death Penalty Mechanic and Loss Aversion in MMO Design
Quote: "The death penalty mechanic is probably one of the most important and underappreciated mechanics in MMO history. Few designers fully understand and leverage it. Most players despise it. But without it, the MMORPG would lose all meaning and purpose."
Nuf said.
-Az
Good enough that it bears quoting and repeating.
The death penalty is what separates EQ1 (PVE) and EVE (PVP) from every other MMO in existence.
I'd even add : In a tabletop game (or probably even muds), when you die the loss is instant, harsh and very very punitive. MMO already have a really soft death mechanic by not beeing hardcore (thanks for me ! ), making it significant should feel like a constant shadow over your shoulders, forcing you to play smart and safe unless the benefit is worth the risk.
Finbar said:Recall in EQ1; when you handed in a book to the Priest of Discord you became Perma-PvP.
Well, what if instead of becoming Perma-PvP, handing in said item would perma-flag you as "Gear Left on Corpse"? Meaning thereafter when they die, all of their gear is left on their corpse; and in exchange, they get an exp bonus, or some such other perma-bonus. Those who don't complete that quest, have a more forgiving Death Penalty (or vice versa).
The specifics of the various forms of death penatly and/or bonus given, can be chewed on ad astra; I just wanted to highlight the idea of making the options an in-game perma-choice based on a quest.
A very intriguing idea. It would be cool if there were an appropriately difficult quest to switch.
darksaber8570 said:Raroic said:I am for a death penalty like EQ had. I dont mind the exp loss or a corpse run. However when PoP was released they released graveyards as well where after 15 minutes if I recall your corpse would spawn at the graveyard. I am not totally against that aspect either. It also depends on if classes will have a summon corpse ability like the necros and sk's did back in the day. I would be in favor of a mixture of all 3.
Pretty much Raroic stated I am thinking the same thing for myself.
Seems like a reasonable compromise, however it shouldn't take less time than actually doing the CR. It should be a penalty for not going to get your corpse. Maybe an hour or something like that.
Keno Monster said:darksaber8570 said:Raroic said:I am for a death penalty like EQ had. I dont mind the exp loss or a corpse run. However when PoP was released they released graveyards as well where after 15 minutes if I recall your corpse would spawn at the graveyard. I am not totally against that aspect either. It also depends on if classes will have a summon corpse ability like the necros and sk's did back in the day. I would be in favor of a mixture of all 3.
Pretty much Raroic stated I am thinking the same thing for myself.
Seems like a reasonable compromise, however it shouldn't take less time than actually doing the CR. It should be a penalty for not going to get your corpse. Maybe an hour or something like that.
I agree 100%. Same rules as EQ classic, but if you wait a certain amount of time (fairly long, like 24 hours), your corpse appears in a graveyard near where you died so you still have to run through other zones to get to there. If you retreieve your corpse this way, there is some sort of greater penalty applied. Maybe like even more exp loss with the risk of losing a level.
Thinking more about this I thought up some ideas.
Use EQ classic rules with the following options:
1) You run back to get your corpse. You will be naked, gear on your corpse. If you retrieve it this way, you lose exp, but can not lose a level. You may get exp debt though if you are near the bottom of your level. Rezzes will help with this exp loss and can erase the corpse run.
2) Otherwise, you can wait 24-48 hours. At the end of which your corpse shows up in a graveyard in a safe spot in the zone you died in. You still have to run back to that zone naked. Exp loss will increase (double?) using this method and you can lose a level. Consider allowing a rez to mitigate som eof this loss.