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Let's talk Death Penalty

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    • 9115 posts
    August 31, 2015 3:19 AM PDT

    How would you describe the perfect Death Penalty in an MMORPG, and how would you like to see it implemented into Pantheon?

     

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    • 308 posts
    August 31, 2015 3:53 AM PDT

    i would like to see about a 10% of level exp penalty with deleveling, but im not too keen on corpse runs so i would like to keep my gear when i die.

     

    i really just want enough of a penalty that it makes you stop and think when you are about to do something stupid. i am tired of mmos where people run around doing stupid things like puling mobs they are fairly sure will kill them and their group just because there is no real penalty to death. i think a good 3 hours or more loss of xp (in a great group) is a fine death penalty.

     

    oh and there should be ways to recover the xp... like cleric rezzes


    This post was edited by Gawd at September 2, 2015 10:54 PM PDT
    • 81 posts
    August 31, 2015 5:10 AM PDT

    I am for a death penalty like EQ had. I dont mind the exp loss or a corpse run. However when PoP was released they released graveyards as well where after 15 minutes if I recall your corpse would spawn at the graveyard. I am not totally against that aspect either. It also depends on if classes will have a summon corpse ability like the necros and sk's did back in the day. I would be in favor of a mixture of all 3.

    • 30 posts
    August 31, 2015 5:14 AM PDT

    I'm certainly in favour of choice. Choice is what makes the game interesting after all.

     

    Essentially, give me the option whether I want this death to cost me 50% of my levels XP (summon corpse), 10% (recover tombstone?), or 1% (get a rez). Plucked these numbers out of thin air, so if the point of the thread is to determine those numbers I'm afraid I'm no use at all :)

    • 62 posts
    August 31, 2015 5:15 AM PDT

    I liked EQOA's death penalty: EXP debt. The more you die, the more debt you get and have to grind off. No corpse runs, no loss of items, but you still never really wanted to die... especially not at mid to high levels.

    • 120 posts
    August 31, 2015 5:43 AM PDT
    I think EQ did death pretty well. EXP penalty and having to get your corpse. Adventuring should be dangerous! I think the only part I would change is return to bind point.
    I like the way WoW handled that. Pop up at the nearest graveyard, which might be in friendly territory, might be in enemy territory.
    This post was edited by Castwell at September 1, 2015 3:50 AM PDT
    • 81 posts
    August 31, 2015 5:57 AM PDT
    Castwell said:
    I think EQ did death pretty well. EXP penalty and having to get your corpse. Adventuring should be dangerous! I think the only part I would change is return to bind point. I like the way WoW handled that. Pop up at the nearest graveyard, which might be in friendly territory, might be in enemy territory.

    I can get on board with the graveyard aspect. Death still has a sting but not I have to cross the world naked sting!

    • 81 posts
    August 31, 2015 6:04 AM PDT
    Perplexing89 said:

    I liked EQOA's death penalty: EXP debt. The more you die, the more debt you get and have to grind off. No corpse runs, no loss of items, but you still never really wanted to die... especially not at mid to high levels.

    Debt is a funny thing to me. A couple different games have used the debt aspect and for me personally it was far more annoying to deal with debt then straight exp loss. For some reason a straight exp loss was better and I dont know why it works that way in my mind. I know essentially they are both achieving the same goal so its really semantics. It is probably because with a straight exp loss you feel like you are right back and making progress. With debt you dont feel like you are progressing until the debt is paid. Thats how my crazy mind works i guess :P

    • 1778 posts
    August 31, 2015 7:22 AM PDT
    Im fine with most anything as long as I have ample opperturnity to get gear back. Item loss on a super rare drop that took you 2 years of fighting the RNG is just too cruel. Thats not a death penalty its a private hell. So it needs to an annoyance to get my gear back but needs to be a sure thing that I will get it back. So the idea of in the worst case scenario being able to have my corpse summoned if I cant get to it is great.
    • 120 posts
    August 31, 2015 7:46 AM PDT
    Amsai said:
    Im fine with most anything as long as I have ample opperturnity to get gear back. Item loss on a super rare drop that took you 2 years of fighting the RNG is just too cruel. Thats not a death penalty its a private hell. So it needs to an annoyance to get my gear back but needs to be a sure thing that I will get it back. So the idea of in the worst case scenario being able to have my corpse summoned if I cant get to it is great.

    That's where the graveyard in EQ came into play. Before PoP, if you didn't get your corpse you lost all your stuff. After it was put in your courpse went to the graveyard and you zone there and get it.
    • 154 posts
    August 31, 2015 7:53 AM PDT

    I would say that I am comfortable with loss of exp that will result in level loss and a corpse run but if there is going to be a corpse run there has to be summon corpse capabilities. Depending on how zoning works and what not if it is distance based summoning it needs to be a large distance range as well. Also while part of me thinks it would be interesting if certain mobs or locations could send out and anti-corpse summon field I think it would be just too much but maybe if there was a like a small quest/payment system where you could go to a temple and they could over come such fields by having some sort of scaling system so the harder the mob the more costly the summoning, would probably work as well. Actually I kind of like that idea maybe at low levels you can pay a priest or something to summon your corpse (make it a hefty fine) and then at higher levels you have to sacrifice something of value. That way its pretty unlikely if you plan decently well that you will ever completely loose your corpse . It would have to be scaled well enough though that corpse runs would be preferable.

    • 384 posts
    August 31, 2015 8:05 AM PDT

    I am guessing that most of us here would agree that death needs to be pretty painful. When the death penalty means something it gives each confrontation more tension which makes our overall experience more interesting and fun.

     

    (skip this rambley part) In essence, each time we get into a perilous situation we are gambling with our time invested. The size of our bet depends on the penalty: time to regain xp, reacquire money, time to go on a corpse run, etc. and is (obviously) also influenced by the difficulty of the encounter. Imo, as we've gotten older our time has gotten more valuable because there is less of it available. So when you lose that bet by dying, it hurts. Even still, I think it's important that we put those "chips" on the table to make things more interesting. The hard part (for the devs) is balancing the risk/reward ratio. Especially since that's going to vary so much from person to person. So.... for me... an acceptable amount to gamble may end up being a little more than what others are comfortable with. We'll see.

     

    tldr: Exp loss with a corpse run and the possibility to de-level and repair costs with the possibility of overall durability loss but a way to mitigate (spell or something that prevents durability from taking a hit) the durability loss. Possibly the option to summon your own corpse after an extended period of time for a significant loss if it's unreachable. Of course, I'll suggest this and if were ever actually implemented I'll be the one crying about it. =)

     


    This post was edited by Malsirian at September 1, 2015 9:21 PM PDT
    • 87 posts
    August 31, 2015 8:14 AM PDT

    Personally, I liked how Vanguard handled death, but rather than being able to summon your tombstone from an alter, i think you should either have to run back and get your corpse, or wait 24 hours and have it pop to the dungeon entrance or zone in. I think that if there is soulbound gear, it should be weightless and stay with you when you die, anything unbound should stay on your corpse, even the stuff in your bags. I agree with the above poster that you should lose ~ 10% of XP when you die with means of recovering partial XP. I'm on the fence when it comes to xp debt or deleveling, I could go either way, though deleveling during a raid would suck ass.

    • 6 posts
    August 31, 2015 8:34 AM PDT

    Good question. I liked the way EQ worked but that was years ago, when I had plenty of time to play. Now, I would like a death penalty that is somewhat less brutal but still serves as a severe reminder of your mistakes.

    First, graveyard. It was an awesome thing in EQ. I would love to see a GY in every zones. Your corpse would pop there every .. Idk 45min or so. So you could either wait or still attempt a CR to save time. But no more being unable to retrieve your corpse. 

    Second, I would like a hefty exp loss on death. Just like in EQ. Clerics could rez you and you get some exp back. If you wait for the GY pop, you could still regain some by looting without a rez but not as much, like 10% of what you lost. I would also give a rez ability to more classes like shamans and druids to help reduce CR a bit. (Maybe a less powerful rez for those classes as well)

    I think having death consequences is a great thing. People tend to learn more how to play the game and you see less of "lol lets rush in, try and see".


    This post was edited by Liquidsky at September 3, 2015 8:14 AM PDT
  • August 31, 2015 9:38 AM PDT

    I would rather it be just like Everquest with exp loss and corpse run.  De-leveling is fine, as it puts an '!' on adventure and risk.

     

    IF it's going to be on easy mode ( :) ) then at the least it should be setup like below. (I mentioned something similar a while back as an alternative and multiple folks have posted something similar in this thread)

    I really like having options, as well, if they do not 'force' a player to make a certain choice in order to 'keep up with the jones'.  For instance,  I believe options are useless if my corpse run and recovery give me only a tad more returned exp as someone who clicks the 'send corpse to graveyard' option.

     

    If one makes a corpse run let's say one receives 95% of the exp loss back, if one is rezzed by a cleric then 90%, a corpse is summoned (spell only, class specific, no items or skills) within a reasonable distance of the death (ie...beginning of the dungeon), then one gets only 50% back (rez or loot).  Note*   I do not know what the penalty percentage was in EQ, so the percentages may have to be altered to be more harsh.

     

    If one uses a graveyard from anywhere in the game, 0% exp is regained.  I think this option should only be available in order to prevent item loss through corpse decay.  There should be reasonable time limits for corpse runs, rezzes, and summons, before the corpse pops to a graveyard if the player doesn't click the box for their chosen option (this to account for loss of power/connection/etc...).  If you wait too long to get to your corpse run or rezz, then you get no experience anyway (as in EQ).   So, if one chooses the easy way out, regardless of the reason, then one should get 0 returned exp.


    This post was edited by BloodbeardBattlecaster at September 3, 2015 8:16 AM PDT
    • 1778 posts
    August 31, 2015 9:48 AM PDT
    About deleveling. This happened fairly often in XI. When new content came out it wasnt uncommon for me (tank) to delevel once maybe twice. It wasnt normal on familiar content. That being said one problem I really had with the way death worked in XI was too many raise spells. What I mean is whitemage had a low level a mid level and a high level raise. Each increasing in MPs and cool down. The other benefit was that they each increased more then the last spells xp kept after death. From a money syand point it was great that whiyemages could charge mire for a R3 then a R1.

    My problem came from some people doing raids that refused R1s and wouldnt get back into the fight unless they got a R3 (fear of xp loss). I was a team player so until it became obvious that the raid was a wipe I would continue to get the hell up and do my job. If that meant a delevel so be it. But you dont even have a chance if you have people refusing to take a lower tiered raise. Couldnt stand that. And eventually I convinced my raid leader that anyone engauging in that behavior get kicked from the guild (LS) in my later XI career.

    I guess what Im saying is dont make tiered raise/rez whatever spells. So none of the shennanigans above happen. Of course Im sure that wont stop some people from taking the death and respawning out of the raid. But at least you wont get false hope for a recovery only to find out not everyone is willing to take a R1. Sorry its a bit off topic but I had to say it.
    • 338 posts
    August 31, 2015 9:59 AM PDT

    This is a topic near and dear to me as it really sets the tone for the whole game.

     

    My perfect death penalty would be something like...

     

    1) When you die you leave a corpse with all your gear on it.

     

    2) When you die the amount of exp you lose is determined by the mob that killed you. The more dangerous the area or mob the more exp loss is delivered upon death. Starting at about 20% of a level and going up to about 50% of a level for the most dangerous areas.

     

    3) Corpses can be dragged with permissions and getting a res from a high level cleric gets you back 95% exp that was lost. If you just go back and loot your corpse you regain 20% of the lost exp.

     

    4) If you can't recover your corpse you can either have it summoned at a temple but you have to spend some form of fealty points that you earn from sacrificing rare items on an alter. (Not trivial)... otherwise you can pay platinum at the rogue guild to have them recover your corpse. (Expensive)

     

    The thing I like about losing more exp for more dangerous areas is that it helps curb just throwing your guild over and over at raid mobs til you get lucky with the RNG. This will help preserve content in the long run I think.

     

     

    Thanks for reading,

    Kiz~

     

    P.S. Higher risk = Higher reward


    This post was edited by Angrykiz at September 1, 2015 11:16 AM PDT
    • 557 posts
    August 31, 2015 10:00 AM PDT

    Death should be feared.   For it to be feared it has to have consequences that can't be almost entirely negated within minutes.  Examples that I'd include here would be 96% experience resurrections from party members, any sort of tokens which equate to "get out jail free" cards with regard to death events, etc...

     

    Corpse runs are at the top of my "must have" list for death consequences.  If your group wipes in a dungeon, the process of recovery should be painful enough that you don't view it as nothing more than a game save and continue on right where you left off.   Corpse runs should be risky with the possibility that you may have more than one corpse to retrieve if this doesn't go well.

     

    I definitely don't want to see any sort of grave yard system other than as a last resort so a player doesn't lose everything they've invested in a character.   I'd suggest that a ten day timer would be appropriate before corpses become available for looting through this mechanism.   I'd also like to see that any corpse recovered through the graveyard would not be eligible for any kind of experience res.   The only reason it should exist is so that people don't get totally crushed and /ragequit if they bite off more than they can chew.

     

    Of course we'll need a class (or two) which has dedicated skills for dealing with corpse runs.   Stealth for corpse drags, coffins for corpse summons (within zone), etc...  

     

    I'm not asking for Pantheon to simply duplicate what early EQ offered in this regard as I hope the devs have some new tricks up their sleeves. 

     

    I do want to see death as an event to be avoided at all costs, not merely shrugged off.

    • 105 posts
    August 31, 2015 11:06 AM PDT

    I'd go back to EQ as well. I think it's death penalty is over-stated.

     

    1) I used to keep track of experience and death in EQ, and I found it rarely took even an hour to recover the experience from one death with no rez. More often it was 40 minutes to an hour I don't think that's a crazy penalty. What I might do is cut that penalty some for a second death where you haven't yet recovered from the first.

     

    2) The way to reduce the death penalty is to make friends with a cleric. There should be classes that rez and making friends with one should be a really, really good idea. I'd have a high enough level rez reduce the death penalty to a fraction of what it is without one. Even without a friend, I could almost always find a cleric near by that I could pay for a rez, though it could get pricey. Rather than a less severe death penalty, I'd rather see more classes that can rez.

     

    3) I think corpse runs, at least at high levels, were also over-stated. There were many ways to take the sting out.

     

    4) Again I think the idea of class interdependence is the key. If you knew someone who could summon a corpse then it just became a cost issue for the components. Even if you didn't you could frequently find someone to pay. If your concerned about it just give more people the ability to summon a corpse.

     

    5) Corpse dragging was also a good idea, so in non-dungeon environments all you needed to do is find someone near your corpse to drag it. Often classes that made good pullers, such as those that could feign death, also made good corpse draggers.

     

    6) Most players simply adopted a strategy of binding near the dungeon entrance or at some other strategic location. I don't like the idea of a graveyard, unless it's a self-bind type of thing where you visit it and select it as the place you want to resurrect. The reason is it eliminates a level of strategy. IMHO players should always be able to choose where they resurrect, not have it chosen for them.

     

    7) I don't mind the idea that certain high level, rare items that took a lot of effort and time and risk to get should stay on you through death. Again, I think death should really sting, but you should have ways of taking the sting out and getting certain coveted pieces of equipment is one of those ways.

     

    Anyway just my two cents.

    • 409 posts
    August 31, 2015 11:11 AM PDT

    Combo of EQ1 and Anarchy Online. I'll use Anarchy Online's contribution first because it will make the EQ1 part more understandable.


    Anarchy Online - All exp earned since last "save" goes poof and gets added to your lost exp pool. While you have exp in your exp pool, you gain exp 30% faster via killing and quest rewards. Saves happen automatically at every new level (autosave, no deleveling) and/or when you find an insurance terminal and pay the fee. The insurance terminal then becomes your bind point as well. In a fantasy game, I'd envision it as some relic you place an offering at, or a bind caster in some town you pay a fee to, or a monument you kneel at, etc. Pay some fee, and your exp is locked at that level as a minimum, and all deaths return you to that exp point and physical location, with all lost exp going to the exp pool.


    EQ1 - Now that we have no more deleveling and more available bind/save points, death functions exactly like it used to. Your corpse has your stuff and is on a one week timer. You can find players to summon/drag for you, you can pay an NPC some godawful amount to bring your corpse to you (current PoK mechanic), veteran reward let's you summon/rezz all corpses once per week, and then you can pay/haggle for rezzes to replace lost XP or reduce what goes to the exp pool. If you get rezzed at your deathy spot, like ina dungeon crawl or raid, then you just pop up with all your stuff as if you looted your corpse and equipped.


    And all buffs/food effects/potions/etc are gone, unless you found the uber "lasts through death" recipes or whatever, which would make for a fine way to include tradeskill grinds and make them worthwhile.


    Basically, EQ1 without deleveling and adding the AO exp pool mechanic.

    • 578 posts
    August 31, 2015 12:55 PM PDT

    A combination of all or a few of these would be fine with me:

    1) Corpse run. You keep your equipped gear but you have to return to your corpse to get your inventory and money.

    2) Graveyard. Your corpse or tombstone will remain for a period of time. After so long it will return automatically to the GY or you can summon it somehow, I like the 'pay the rogue guild to retrieve it for you' idea. Some form of that would be a cool gimmick.

    3) XP loss. If you don't return to your corpse in its original location you lose XP (ie summon your corpse to the GY). If you DO return to your corpse in its original location it's a small xp loss.

    4) Item max durability hit. Equipped items have a max durability limit, ie your chest piece has a durability of 100. If you die your item's MAX durability takes a hit, ie now your chest piece has a max durability of 90.

    5) The monsters that killed you learn from your death and are harder to kill when you return. They alter their combat based on what class you and your group mates are.

    6) Item physical appearance deteriorates with each death so you look like your items have been through hell. Your item's graphics you have equipped look like they are damaged more and more with each death. (Some may view this as a benefit/bonus rather than a penalty lol but even though they would look war-torn people would know they have died a lot)

    • 724 posts
    August 31, 2015 12:56 PM PDT

    A death penalty should really be one thing: a time setback. This is most obvious for games like EVE or Elite: Dangerous, where dieing means losing your space ship. Usually a costly thing, which can take you some hours to grind back the money. There are insurance systems in these games, which reduce the loss, similar to how EQ or other games allow gaining back some exp through rezes. But in the end, a death usually will still result in quite some time lost. Now how this lost time has to be paid back is up to the game.

     

    There should be means to summon or drag a corpse. EQ had this quite well, although I found the necro summons were too expensive (early on, iirc later on they became more affordable). I think EQ's naked corpse runs were over the top...I'd prefer some serious (non-stacking) debuff on your stats instead, that would only go away once you were rezed or after a VERY long time. Not as bad as fighting naked, but still really weakened. So you would definitely want to get back to your corpse. On the other hand, I don't like "after rez" effects. Once I'm rezed, let me be ready for battle again (except for buffs of course). Not having to wait ANOTHER five minutes for some "after rez" effect to wear off.

     

    Should items get damaged and/or unusable on death? I personally don't like that. Its more of an annoyance. Plus people ALWAYS forget to get their gear repaired before grouping up ;)


    This post was edited by Sarim at August 31, 2015 3:56 PM PDT
    • 158 posts
    August 31, 2015 1:45 PM PDT
    Gawd said:

    i would like to see about a 10% of level exp penalty with deleveling, but im not too keen on corpse runs so i would like to keep my gear when i die.

     

    i really just want enough of a penalty that it makes you stop and think when you are about to do something stupid. i am tired of mmos where people run around doing stupid things like puling mobs they are fairly sure will kill them and their group just because there is no real penalty to death. i think a good 3 hours or more loss of xp (in a great group) is a fine death penalty.

     

    oh and there should be ways to recover the xp... like cleric rezzes

     

    This is pretty much exactly my stance on it.

    • 311 posts
    August 31, 2015 2:14 PM PDT

    Vanguard death was perfect for me never played EQ so I must go with the way VG handled it.

    • 211 posts
    August 31, 2015 2:33 PM PDT

    Woo whee, there are few similar opinions on this subject, good luck VR in deciding this one!

     

    I would like to see a death penalty similar to classic EQ. I say classic, since I don't mean PoP and it's graveyards. I DO want the loss of level, because I really won't care about dying if I'm not going to lose the level...what would be the alternative, XP debt? Who cares, I can easily get back any lost exp. I do want corpse runs with all items needing to be recovered from your corpse. Again, if I am resurrecting with all my items... I'm not going to care if I die. What's the penalty, just loss exp? Or I still have to recover a tombstone or something to recover loss exp? That's not a big deal to me. It's been a very long time since I played either EQ2 or Vanguard (and only about 1 year each), so I can't remember much about their systems...pretty sure EQ2 had debt and Vanguard maybe tombstone to recover exp? But I remember for sure I laughed in the face of death in both of those games, it didn't matter to me if I died in them. And I can already see myself taking advantage of a system where you rez with all your gear......by dying on purpose for the free 'port' just cause I'm too lazy to work my way out of a dangerous area (if I don't have gating abilities) - loss of exp the only penalty? No biggie!

     

    However the one thing I would like changed for sure is the chance to permanently lose your corpse. I don't think that someone should ever lose their stuff for good. I've heard stories of it happening, but most of the time someone was always able to get it recovered one way or another, even if they had to create a lvl 1 halfling rogue and hide/sneak their own corpse to safety. Maybe instead of permanent loss, put a time limit on it...I don't know...3 days? 1 week? Of how long it would be before the corpse automatically shows up at your home city's building of worship, when the priests have their weekly service or whatever. The time couldn't be too short, cause again....oh, I only have to wait 24 hours for the corpse to be sent back? Haha no big deal, I'll just die to get out of here, log back in tomorrow and get the lost exp back in 1 hour!

     

    Sorry this is getting long, one more opinion I wanted to shoot out, is maybe after death a player will rez at the nearest friendly city. This would have been the norm anyway for a melee etc who had to be bound in a city by a caster. But this would allow you to be near the bank, in case you needed to get some backup gear out to help you get to your corpse.