My stance: Personally, I'm ok with level loss as that's what I'm used to from EQ1. Honestly, it wasn't a huge deal and was quickly made up. Exp debt instead of deleveling seems like a good compromise, and judging by the last stream, that's the direction they're leaning. Loss of items and group shared xp loss for the death of a group member I would say are a bit over the top. I am reminded of wiping repeatedly in EQ1 while trying to learn a raid. Loss of bagged clicky items would be unduly devastating.
We all want death to sting, and that sting to modify behavior, but lets not take it to oppressive extremes.
Dekaden said:My stance: Personally, I'm ok with level loss as that's what I'm used to from EQ1. Honestly, it wasn't a huge deal and was quickly made up. Exp debt instead of deleveling seems like a good compromise, and judging by the last stream, that's the direction they're leaning. Loss of items and group shared xp loss for the death of a group member I would say are a bit over the top. I am reminded of wiping repeatedly in EQ1 while trying to learn a raid. Loss of bagged clicky items would be unduly devastating.
We all want death to sting, and that sting to modify behavior, but lets not take it to oppressive extremes.
I'd much prefer level loss over item loss without a second thought.
Wandidar said:Fear of death should set self imposed player boundaries
An understanding of the results that could occur (death) of doing content should be a consideration you have when you are deciding to do content. Are you willing to die there? This does not mean that you will never do that content... it just means that you will decide to do (or not to do) it now. This, ultimately, is likely good for you. That is, if the death ramifications make you unwilling to take the risk today, at some level, you possibly/probably feel like you WILL fail if you go there... or that you simply don't want to deal with dying there. If you went, and died... you would feel frustrated. That kind of frustration is bad. So don't go. Save it for later, when you are willing and ready.
On that point there is a balance problem. As I said in a precedent post, the currently proposed penalties are CR ( = timesink), and XP loss ( = timesink), so the impact is very important for people that have less time for playing, and not so much for people who have more. The problem is still that 2 or 3 deaths are considered being inacceptable for more casual people that "should" go elsewhere, but 20 deaths are positively considered for more hardcore people that should not be discouraged in front of challenging boss.
In my mind, after 6 or 7 deaths against the same opponents or in the same zone, the conclusion should be the same for anyone, no matter how long you play per day : go elsewhere, try again next week.
Khendall said:Wandidar said:Fear of death should set self imposed player boundaries
An understanding of the results that could occur (death) of doing content should be a consideration you have when you are deciding to do content. Are you willing to die there? This does not mean that you will never do that content... it just means that you will decide to do (or not to do) it now. This, ultimately, is likely good for you. That is, if the death ramifications make you unwilling to take the risk today, at some level, you possibly/probably feel like you WILL fail if you go there... or that you simply don't want to deal with dying there. If you went, and died... you would feel frustrated. That kind of frustration is bad. So don't go. Save it for later, when you are willing and ready.
On that point there is a balance problem. As I said in a precedent post, the currently proposed penalties are CR ( = timesink), and XP loss ( = timesink), so the impact is very important for people that have less time for playing, and not so much for people who have more. The problem is still that 2 or 3 deaths are considered being inacceptable for more casual people that "should" go elsewhere, but 20 deaths are positively considered for more hardcore people that should not be discouraged in front of challenging boss.
In my mind, after 6 or 7 deaths against the same opponents or in the same zone, the conclusion should be the same for anyone, no matter how long you play per day : go elsewhere, try again next week.
I agree. But if you try to eliminate stupid as a factor we'll all end up playing tic-tac-toe and there will still be people pissed that they keep losing.
Khendall said:Wandidar said:Fear of death should set self imposed player boundaries
An understanding of the results that could occur (death) of doing content should be a consideration you have when you are deciding to do content. Are you willing to die there? This does not mean that you will never do that content... it just means that you will decide to do (or not to do) it now. This, ultimately, is likely good for you. That is, if the death ramifications make you unwilling to take the risk today, at some level, you possibly/probably feel like you WILL fail if you go there... or that you simply don't want to deal with dying there. If you went, and died... you would feel frustrated. That kind of frustration is bad. So don't go. Save it for later, when you are willing and ready.
On that point there is a balance problem. As I said in a precedent post, the currently proposed penalties are CR ( = timesink), and XP loss ( = timesink), so the impact is very important for people that have less time for playing, and not so much for people who have more. The problem is still that 2 or 3 deaths are considered being inacceptable for more casual people that "should" go elsewhere, but 20 deaths are positively considered for more hardcore people that should not be discouraged in front of challenging boss.
In my mind, after 6 or 7 deaths against the same opponents or in the same zone, the conclusion should be the same for anyone, no matter how long you play per day : go elsewhere, try again next week.
I think trying to design any aspect of an MMO around different players having different amounts of time to play is a slippery slope.
- Player A has 1 hour every other day to play
- Player B has 1 hour a day to play
- Player C has 3 hours a day to play
- Player D has 6 hours a day to play
Developers can't account for those differences individually when they are designing mechanics. Rather, they can say "Our game is designed around the expectation that players will spend X hours per day / week playing it." Folks who play less than that stated development target should expect that they won't always be able to do things. Players who play more should expect that they may consume content too quickly.
The mechanics they ultimately decide upon (not just for death, but for everything) will be designed with that expected play time in mind.
There will always, in an MMO, be people on both ends of the "never enough time to complete content / complete content too quickly" spectrum.
I like the way you all have described it being now. Long as I dont have to worry about deleveling I am fine with losing XP. Main thing is I dont want to have to worry about losing item this to me would turn me off exploring and possible even a game faster then anything.
Zikkar said:I like the way you all have described it being now. Long as I dont have to worry about deleveling I am fine with losing XP. Main thing is I dont want to have to worry about losing item this to me would turn me off exploring and possible even a game faster then anything.
If you have a system where losing EXP is a component, but you don't have de-leveling... then you don't have exp loss as a component of your death penalty. For example, if you can't lose a level, what penalty is EXP loss at max level? The answer is, it isn't. In regard to losing items... Depends on what you mean by losing items. I'm personally OK with my gear staying on my corspe and needing recovery if the developers decide that such mechanics are a component of the death penalty... but in a game where the design is that you will need multiple sets of gear, I'm not convinced it is a penalty. Having to go back to your coprse for some reason is though...
Many people often play games in short sessions these days as many has kids and so, and if the only thing you manage to do in one session is to regain lost exp will definitely not encourage people to play this game. So I am glad this game will not have equal harsh death penalty as EQ. I remember from EQ, that I unsubscribed several times just because I died in EQ, as it felt so hard to regain lost exp. It could take several hours before you regained it. :) As mobs in this game looks to be quite hard to bring down and it takes quite long time to do so maybe an exp loss equal to few mobs would be enough to have, so the time it takes to regain lost exp is max around 20-30 minutes. That will still feel quite hard comparing to other games.
I was bound on the ocean floor in Timourus Deep, just above the pot room. This gave me full access to all of TimDeep and every major city int he game. The downside was being bound in the EXACT same spot as Feydadar - a druid dragon (iirc). He only cuaght me twice - and both times resulted in about 5 or 6 deaths while he nommed on me. I never complained about it. It's the cost for being bound there. The cure for this is simply telling your guild that a dragon spawn was up - then the dragon would be attacked and I could respawn. The point here is that sometimes there WILL be death penalties that will be heavy - but it's worth the risk. Most of the time though? There won't be that much. Folks usually give up after a death or two and they wander off to get XP another way. I think I really am the only REAL glutton for punishment...
It really was fun - even while he was eating my corpse over and over and over.... but like I said, with great risks come great rewards. Because of where i was bound I had the fastes access to every major city in the game. I actually had a sort of FedEx business going - peopler would pay me to deliver goods to other players all over the place. I made a mint! On the other hadn, because they turned the whole zone into a no-bind area - I could never bind myself anywhere. Until years later when changes were made...
Exp Loss, that could be another facet of the item sacrifice system.
Gaining money, exp or buffs from item sacrifice (as item sacrifice was mentioned in one of the streams) could be other facets with proper tuning, though tedious balancing may ensue, but what about the concept of sacrificing items as a buffer vs exp loss? Build up that purple line that runs through your exp bar, deaths could eat at that until it's depleted, thereafter resulting in hard exp loss?
This isn't a statement on exp loss or level loss, but more of a potential use to ascribe value to the sacrifice system, however it does loosely relate to the topic and I'm curious to hear what you'd think of that.
Would that belittle the 'hardcore' or could it add a bit more variety to the spectrum of sacrifice?
For the record I'm fine with xp loss and level loss, so maybe this ties in more with their ideas of item sinks that provide options to twinking.
Kyridel said:Exp Loss, that could be another facet of the item sacrifice system.
Gaining money, exp or buffs from item sacrifice (as item sacrifice was mentioned in one of the streams) could be other facets with proper tuning, though tedious balancing may ensue, but what about the concept of sacrificing items as a buffer vs exp loss? Build up that purple line that runs through your exp bar, deaths could eat at that until it's depleted, thereafter resulting in hard exp loss?
This isn't a statement on exp loss or level loss, but more of a potential use to ascribe value to the sacrifice system, however it does loosely relate to the topic and I'm curious to hear what you'd think of that.
Would that belittle the 'hardcore' or could it add a bit more variety to the spectrum of sacrifice?
For the record I'm fine with xp loss and level loss, so maybe this ties in more with their ideas of item sinks that provide options to twinking.
Thats not a bad idea BUT I would say the items could not be crafted UNLESS they reqiured rare components. If I had 10 crafters and could make whatever items I wanted then again it would not be a deterrent to zerging since I could just feed myself whatever I needed to negate the death penalty.
I was never a hardcore gamer and only played a few hours a day and when I lost a level it sucked BUT it def made me a much better player. I was ALOT more aware of my surroundings, paying attention to chat like "TRAIN TO ZONE". I remember back in EQ the making it to a hell level and dying so losing the level. Usually those hell levels were levels you got your new spells so it sucked big time. Even saying that I felt it kept ppl honest, and as I've said before, when you finally got to max level you really felt you accomplished something. Nobody gave you anything, least at the beginning. It was a real challenge that I havent felt in any other game I have played since EQ because of the fact no other games had the level loss. That one thing made EQ unique, at least as far as games I have played. If this game as Brad and others have said is for that niche of gamers that WANT a challenging game like EQ was then you have to include the level loss. Otherwise it defeats the purpose and the game is already being watered down in pre alpha before its even started. As others have said, this game isnt for the faint of heart and its not for those that want to be coddled and to follow the yellow brick road to your next quest, etc. Its for players that want hardcore content with a challenge which is what EQ was.
If de-leveling isn't possible, XP would have to be replaced with another commodity at max level. It's really that simple. Do we want another commodity, and a potential system revolved around it for max level players? I think it would be awesome, personally. See: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5753/spiritual-conversion/view/page/1
De-leveling is much easier to implement, however, and for that reason gets a big thumbs up from me.
I am all up for harsh death penalty, but deleveling just seems bit too much. You level up, learn up some new sweet spells/skills and head out to some new danger you dont know about, end up dying, lose a level and end up not being to able use youre new aquired spells/skills you were so excited about would really suck for me. Wouldnt just a exp lose and corpse run be fine etc? Even if you would have just freshly leveld up and die, you wouldnt get any exp towards next level. The only problem with this that comes to my mind quickly is that you could basicly keep figuring out hard fights/areas just after level up without really any exp punishment since you are at 0 exp basicly anyways if you keep dying.
I've been following this thread for awhile now (wow 21 pages later) and it seems we all fall into a few camps:
1. XP Loss, with level down and corpse runs
2. XP Dept with corpse runs - seems to be the current implementation
There have been all kinds of suggestions on what to do instead of XP Loss with level down.
I'm sure some of you have seen this, but its worth a read or re-read:
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
To me it is perhaps the most important mechanic there is in creating the world we want to play in.
To not have an appropriate Loss Aversion mechanic in place for the death penalty will only serve to weaken the impact of the overall game on its community.
-Az
Perma Death. You die you start over.
At level 10, you're offered a quest to gain the ability to revive with harsh penalty.
At max level, or a level before then you're offered another quest to gain the ability to lessen the penalty you recieve from death.
At mex level, (to encourage raiding) another quest is offered that lessen the penalty even more.
Ehh, maybe maybe not. I know harsh death penalties scare people. Everyone wants things to be easy and given to them. Heavens forbid it you make them work for it. "But we did work to earn that level, or get our charcter to such and such level." True, but that shouldn't mean just becase you get to a point should you no long have to stop caring for it.
Amsai said: Instead of Xp loss or deleveling. You could do cumulative rez sickness. Where the mote desths you get the more weak you get for a longer period.It would start small and only last like 30 mins. But build up to like 6 hours and having 1/3rd of your stats potency.
Hopefully clerics or perhaps druids have a heal spell that dispells the rez sickness, can't think of any group that likes to sit around and wait for that to wear off..specifically Raiders. The other thing is, if you have to wait say..6 hours due to several deaths, I'm pretty sure people would just log off. Would they come back? Hopefully. :)
Kittik said:Perma Death. You die you start over.
At level 10, you're offered a quest to gain the ability to revive with harsh penalty.
At max level, or a level before then you're offered another quest to gain the ability to lessen the penalty you recieve from death.
At mex level, (to encourage raiding) another quest is offered that lessen the penalty even more.
Ehh, maybe maybe not. I know harsh death penalties scare people. Everyone wants things to be easy and given to them. Heavens forbid it you make them work for it. "But we did work to earn that level, or get our charcter to such and such level." True, but that shouldn't mean just becase you get to a point should you no long have to stop caring for it.
Perma death suggestions have happened on pretty much every beta testing forum that I've seen over the years. I guess the Devs "could" put up a perma death ruleset server, but I have a hunch it wouldn't last long, or be a money maker in the end. :) But if that is something someone truly believes makes them hardcore....they could always kill off their character and reroll. :)
Nephretiti said:I was bound on the ocean floor in Timourus Deep, just above the pot room. This gave me full access to all of TimDeep and every major city int he game. The downside was being bound in the EXACT same spot as Feydadar - a druid dragon (iirc). He only cuaght me twice - and both times resulted in about 5 or 6 deaths while he nommed on me. I never complained about it. It's the cost for being bound there. The cure for this is simply telling your guild that a dragon spawn was up - then the dragon would be attacked and I could respawn. The point here is that sometimes there WILL be death penalties that will be heavy - but it's worth the risk. Most of the time though? There won't be that much. Folks usually give up after a death or two and they wander off to get XP another way. I think I really am the only REAL glutton for punishment...
Actually I ate a few deaths for my team porting over Siren's Grotto when it was first released. Even delevelled. That area was buggy. :) When you are in the thick of things and people are depending on you, you do what you gotta do. :)
HEVIS said:I am all up for harsh death penalty, but deleveling just seems bit too much. You level up, learn up some new sweet spells/skills and head out to some new danger you dont know about, end up dying, lose a level and end up not being to able use youre new aquired spells/skills you were so excited about would really suck for me. Wouldnt just a exp lose and corpse run be fine etc? Even if you would have just freshly leveld up and die, you wouldnt get any exp towards next level. The only problem with this that comes to my mind quickly is that you could basicly keep figuring out hard fights/areas just after level up without really any exp punishment since you are at 0 exp basicly anyways if you keep dying.
The Devs already mentioned in the very last livestream...that there won't be the delevelling mechanic. My question is...what happens when you are level capped and you die? I suppose there must be an experience deficit...which would affect your level cap skills that you attained on your level cap ding?
CanadinaXegony said:HEVIS said:I am all up for harsh death penalty, but deleveling just seems bit too much. You level up, learn up some new sweet spells/skills and head out to some new danger you dont know about, end up dying, lose a level and end up not being to able use youre new aquired spells/skills you were so excited about would really suck for me. Wouldnt just a exp lose and corpse run be fine etc? Even if you would have just freshly leveld up and die, you wouldnt get any exp towards next level. The only problem with this that comes to my mind quickly is that you could basicly keep figuring out hard fights/areas just after level up without really any exp punishment since you are at 0 exp basicly anyways if you keep dying.
The Devs already mentioned in the very last livestream...that there won't be the delevelling mechanic. My question is...what happens when you are level capped and you die? I suppose there must be an experience deficit...which would affect your level cap skills that you attained on your level cap ding?
It would seem to me that some combination of XP loss and debt could be implemented.
Graduating to more sever the higher you go.
Assuming a LVL 50 Cap:
LVLS 1-10 you get debt
LVL 11-30 you lose xp but get debt if you die again within an hour
LVL 31-49 you lose xp but get debt if you die again within 15min
Or in other words - XP loss occures more frequently as you LVL from 11 to 49, with Loss only being experienced from 1 hour down to 15min between deaths, otherwise you incure debt.
LVL 50 you lose xp
There could even be a flag on certain mobs that insure XP loss if you die while on their hate list. Thus making the high end encounters more in line with Risk/Reward psychology.
While I would still agrue this might allow somone to treat death more trivally than they should, it is a compromise that could satisfy the major oppionions here.
-Az
CanadinaXegony said:HEVIS said:I am all up for harsh death penalty, but deleveling just seems bit too much. You level up, learn up some new sweet spells/skills and head out to some new danger you dont know about, end up dying, lose a level and end up not being to able use youre new aquired spells/skills you were so excited about would really suck for me. Wouldnt just a exp lose and corpse run be fine etc? Even if you would have just freshly leveld up and die, you wouldnt get any exp towards next level. The only problem with this that comes to my mind quickly is that you could basicly keep figuring out hard fights/areas just after level up without really any exp punishment since you are at 0 exp basicly anyways if you keep dying.
The Devs already mentioned in the very last livestream...that there won't be the delevelling mechanic. My question is...what happens when you are level capped and you die? I suppose there must be an experience deficit...which would affect your level cap skills that you attained on your level cap ding?
De-leveling is still on the table. We really need it to keep max level players in check.
Kittik said:Wasn't there a game out there that when you died, mobs would take a peice or two of your gear. I liked that. Make revenge on that mob even more sweet. Or the desire to kill that mob before someone else did and they got my gear.
Many years ago, I played a game called Legends of Kesmai and in that game, if you died, the mobs could loot your corpse and wander off with all your gear. Your body could be consumed by fire and all your gear would drop on the floor and they had Boss mobs that could EAT you and all your gear was scattered throughout their lair. So most people would have extra sets of gear so they could recover their DP (death pile) and they would ask for help to recover said equipment which normally went down like this: 3-6 people killing everything on that dungeon level looking for that persons gear till you recovered it all.
Every time you died you lost Constitution and sometimes hit points. If your Con got too low you could go run a series of quests in the Underworld to restore you Con back to max score of 18.... Also if you got Eaten by certain Boss mobs it would be an instant trip to the Underworld... BUT they did have stat pots that when drank, would add 1 point to the flavor of the pot (STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, CHA) All pots were rare but Dragons and some giants would drop 1 Con Pot.
The other game that was similar to LoK was Kingdom of Drakkar, the death mechanics was similar except they didn't have an Underworld.
I remember dying by fire SUCKED.... Fire did the most damage to your stats. So fighting fire breathing dragons was exciting :)
Needless to say, I'm fine with ONLY loosing EXP (with the possibility of deleveling) and having to get back my corpse (that holds all my equipment, you see you don't have to worry about it getting burned up or EATEN!! You kids now days have it easy!! and get off my damn lawn!!! 8-)