Yeah people are comparing to EQ or pushing for even harsher penalties when this game is already looking to be harder than EQ ever was. It's crazy to me. And the idea that if you die then it's probably your fault, yet in the latest stream we see they aren't necessarily against things being able to one shot you. They have this new system where some mobs randomly attack different members or target them for specific abilities, so you will be made a corpse before you even know what happened. It almost looks like some fights they expect a member of your group to die and that to be part of the challenge.
Amsai said: Instead of Xp loss or deleveling. You could do cumulative rez sickness. Where the mote desths you get the more weak you get for a longer period.It would start small and only last like 30 mins. But build up to like 6 hours and having 1/3rd of your stats potency.
I like this idea, and it's not because I proposed something similar earlier :p.
But debuffs should be limited to the zone you died in, so you can continue to fight in good conditions, but elsewhere :).
@Riahuff22 I get it, it is true Trak was a badass, but what you said illustrates my thoughts, if a raid can make up to 25 tries in a row, it means that death is definitly not feared with common penalties. There is a paradox between many people asking death being feared and considering making 25 tries in a row on a boss (with sometimes far more than 25 deaths) is just ok for a raid member, don't you think ?
Well I had posted another thread on this subject and got a few rude remarks/answers since I didnt see this thread. Anyways I shall post my thoughts here.
I was a beta tester for the original EQ and loved the game as it was which included losing your level if you died. On the stream one thing I heard Brad say was that they are leaning towards not losing your level when you die. That to me was one of the things that started the downfall of the genre and that started with DAOC. Losing your level made it even more of a reason to not zerg mobs etc. You always wanted that buffer just in case you died to a train or just a stupid mistake like accidentally attacking your trainer. At the end of it all once you made 50th you felt you had really achieved something with all we had to go thru to get there including losing levels. It just seems like if they want to keep it like it was you will keep the death penalty the way it was including losing your level.
ps Just my personal opinion and believe me, regardless of which way it ends up going, I will still be playing this game as nothing out there looks to be even close in terms of what I want in a game.
sunstalkr said:Well I had posted another thread on this subject and got a few rude remarks/answers since I didnt see this thread. Anyways I shall post my thoughts here.
I was a beta tester for the original EQ and loved the game as it was which included losing your level if you died. On the stream one thing I heard Brad say was that they are leaning towards not losing your level when you die. That to me was one of the things that started the downfall of the genre and that started with DAOC. Losing your level made it even more of a reason to not zerg mobs etc. You always wanted that buffer just in case you died to a train or just a stupid mistake like accidentally attacking your trainer. At the end of it all once you made 50th you felt you had really achieved something with all we had to go thru to get there including losing levels. It just seems like if they want to keep it like it was you will keep the death penalty the way it was including losing your level.
ps Just my personal opinion and believe me, regardless of which way it ends up going, I will still be playing this game as nothing out there looks to be even close in terms of what I want in a game.
Sunstalker, nobody was rude to you in that thread you started. They pointed you in the right direction and added a bit of humor to it, thats all. You even thanked them and apologized for making the thread.....behavior thats unlikely if someone had been rude to you.
Anyway, I havent played a game with a severe death penalty for ages as a lot of the games today seem to not add that bit of accountability anymore. Im good for whatever is the end product as im always taking care of where im going, what mobs are there and my level versus their level. Im looking forward to the challenge this game will give to me and my guildies.
Leowna said:I agree with you 100% Sunstalker well said.
Also agree. Building up experience to attempt more dangerous content should be a thing. Not only does it provide another reason for players to log in, as stated, it does encourage a higher level of play (no zerging) and player responsibility (not binding in foolish places). Both are positives.
I didn't see any rudeness in that other thread either.
To me the scale of the death penalty matters far more than deleveling. Better a solid but not overly harsh pnalty where your level is preserved than a very mild penalty that is allowed to delevel you if you are right at the bottom of your current level or die over and over and over.
Allowing the loss of levels wouldn't bother me at all unless they flipped you out of a group in the middle of a run e.g. because the dungeon was level 30+ and you were now 29. Levels can always be regained. On the other hand I don't disagree with the decision they made.
Yes. DEATH should be painful. VERY much so. I want it all - loss of XP, loss of coin, loss of some bagged items, loss of level, penalty for letting your team mate(s) die, etc. IF your team mates are able to revive you fast enough - loss to XP only and no group share of death penalties. IF you go back and kill the mob that killed you - they should still have that stuff on them - get it back. For those saying that it could lead to a way of transferring bound gear - no. Do not allow mobs to transfer bound gear to anyone that isn't the owner of that gear. Death needs to mean something here. Soo tired of the instant gratification games where death means nothing...
Nephretiti said:Yes. DEATH should be painful. VERY much so. I want it all - loss of XP, loss of coin, loss of some bagged items, loss of level, penalty for letting your team mate(s) die, etc. IF your team mates are able to revive you fast enough - loss to XP only and no group share of death penalties. IF you go back and kill the mob that killed you - they should still have that stuff on them - get it back. For those saying that it could lead to a way of transferring bound gear - no. Do not allow mobs to transfer bound gear to anyone that isn't the owner of that gear. Death needs to mean something here. Soo tired of the instant gratification games where death means nothing...
I like your passion about making death penalty hurt and all even though i coud honestly care about deleveling since i always max my exp bar out in my current level when im at max level, but the lose on items shouldn't be a thing for one lets sy you die and your grp wipes another grp comes in sees your bodies and kills the mobs that killed all of you now even if they don't get your bound items it is still gone and a new loo tabe will be set in place for them when they repop, so basically it could be used more as a grieving tool if anything, like i could watch you die in front of me and do nothing to stop it and than kill the mob so i know you lost some gear.............now i wouldn't do this on purpose but i wouldn't want to go to a area in a dungeon see a grp of dead bodies and wonder if i kill these mobs if they will lose some of their gear.......it really doesn't have any value in a mmo.
dorotea said:I didn't see any rudeness in that other thread either.
To me the scale of the death penalty matters far more than deleveling. Better a solid but not overly harsh pnalty where your level is preserved than a very mild penalty that is allowed to delevel you if you are right at the bottom of your current level or die over and over and over.
Allowing the loss of levels wouldn't bother me at all unless they flipped you out of a group in the middle of a run e.g. because the dungeon was level 30+ and you were now 29. Levels can always be regained. On the other hand I don't disagree with the decision they made.
Sorry but you read the other thread dif than how I read it. Anyways I digress.
I knew and saw many ppl who would, once leveled, zerg mobs knowing they couldnt lose their levels. Once they got to 50th or max level there was zero reason for not zerging if you couldnt lose your lvl. Big deal I get a death penalty. Big deal if I have to pay gold for my repairs. Losing my level IS a big deal. Thats why, esp once you get to max that threat of losing your level has to be there. Otherwise zerg city. Ive seen it in every game Ive played in other than eq.
Im sorry....but losing a level would just suck...bad.
I can put up with any kind of harsh penalty if thats going to be the final decision, but to lose levels would just really throw me for a loop. If it happened too many times even, well....i guess ill make sure that dont happen.
I agree that deleveling should exist as it's a great way to keep max level players honest. Without deleveling, XP loss becomes trivial at max level. No aspect of the death penalty should be trivialized at max level in a hardcore game.
Creed said:Im sorry....but losing a level would just suck...bad.
I can put up with any kind of harsh penalty if thats going to be the final decision, but to lose levels would just really throw me for a loop. If it happened too many times even, well....i guess ill make sure that dont happen.
Bah! It's not that bad, it's not like you loose the whole level, it's if you were only 1 or 2 kills IN then you would loose the level, generally get a rez and you got the level back, 2,3 more kills and you DING back to your new level (get in an extra DING that way.... dings are always good) and you be a little more carefull. Unless your like me in Early EQ however, learning to quad kite at Splitpaw at the start of a hell level... stubborn as i was I bet lost and regained my level 5 times before I made it through that level. But I did make it through and I got very good at quading.
There WERE small problems with level loss though...
If you were grouped with higher levels that you were JUST high enough to group with, and you died... then you couldent get exp grouped. If this happened to anyone the rest of the group just power leveled that player through one or two kills and DING. He was back in the group and the cleric watched him close for the next few kills.
If there was a hypothetical dungon that you had to be 30 to enter and if you died, same thing, few kills and your back.. most just made sure they were half a level up before they would go to a dungon like that. Gave them coush in case of a death.
There are stories of players binding there soul in bad places, going afk and coming back to multiple lost levels. Heard them, never actually seen em. And who on earth would bind someplce like that?
I knew ONE person that had a real bad exp with it, he had just gotten out of the military and he took $2000 and bought a 50 Necro on ebeay (no kidding) he had no idea how to play it and he was 46 by the time he parked the necro and rolled a Ranger... never did play that necro again.
Yes to level loss, its not a big deal..... fix any "over the top" problem with it maybe.... but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Hey lurker here, never much of a forum user just a reader, but i see alot of reoccurring stuff figured i'd toss out my 2 cents. If we want a death that stings, and will always sting but ways to lessen the sting, in my mind there are two parts to death.
A) the corpse run (CR)
B) the XP loss/skill loss/ money loss (a loss of sorts)
What if you only got the option to negate one of these ? like if you got a res it wouldn't give you any xp but would summon you to your corpse , there for negating the CR saving you from half the "sting" of death , also with corpse summoning if your in town and meet a necro or DK (assuming they get the ability) they give you your gear saving you from the corpse run. Just my thoughts of a way that death will always sting but you can remove half the hurt.
Kilsin said:How would you describe the perfect Death Penalty in an MMORPG, and how would you like to see it implemented into Pantheon?
I thought Vanguard's penalty was sufficiently stingy where if you died you suffered XP loss but could recover some of it by collecting your tombstone or getting rezzed. But if you dropped to the point of 0 XP instead of de-leveling you incurred XP debt.
Hijaks said:Hey lurker here, never much of a forum user just a reader, but i see alot of reoccurring stuff figured i'd toss out my 2 cents. If we want a death that stings, and will always sting but ways to lessen the sting, in my mind there are two parts to death.
A) the corpse run (CR)
B) the XP loss/skill loss/ money loss (a loss of sorts)
What if you only got the option to negate one of these ? like if you got a res it wouldn't give you any xp but would summon you to your corpse , there for negating the CR saving you from half the "sting" of death , also with corpse summoning if your in town and meet a necro or DK (assuming they get the ability) they give you your gear saving you from the corpse run. Just my thoughts of a way that death will always sting but you can remove half the hurt.
This might sound good in a way, but i can tell you if tanks can't get their exp back from rezzes this would be a turn off for the tanks, usually the first ones to die, tanks targets especially in raids that could down them in a matter of seconds without being properly healed or the raid target decided to max hit you 5 times to your face. granted you said only 1 of them can be negated but if they didn't get there exp back that will lower the chances of people being tanks, if they didn't get "summoned" to their corpse that dramatically slows down grp progression and raid progression. Plus loss of money isn't really a penalty, and makes no sense on why you would lose it to begin with since it would only get exploited by gold farmers getting killed by a mob that had a lot of money and than the other preson kills it and gets a lot of money.
Creed said:Im sorry....but losing a level would just suck...bad.
I can put up with any kind of harsh penalty if thats going to be the final decision, but to lose levels would just really throw me for a loop. If it happened too many times even, well....i guess ill make sure that dont happen.
Thats exactly why when you finally made 50th lvl you felt like you actually accomplished something. I honestly believe having that type of death penalty made better players. Like you said, you guess you will make sure that doesnt happen. Sometimes you cant avoid it BUT you wont go looking to zerg mobs where if you didnt have level loss as a deterent ppl would do just that.
HI all
Iv read last couple of pages and agree somewhat to every ide ther should be a consecuence for dying
!! BUT !! What about the climbing mechanic and if you die when climbing/jumping ??
Senario : Difficult climb/jump road to target and 50% of the raid is 3-4 lv below when they started and last most gear as they cant reach the corpse due to falling/ missjump (extrem example but you get my point)
How can we assist VR to handle this ? Is it possible to have the server "know" how we died to adress this ? a ranged "grab corpse" may make it to easy to retrive from a normal fight death corpse grab, but low range makes it very hard/impossible to grab from falling death corpse without dying again ? Can the server calculate that the corpse is unreachable and give the player a "special" grab corpse option in those cases ? Trow some ides about it so VR can make us be careful
This may also apply to death in KoS places right ?
disposalist said:Evoras said:disposalist said:...
Immersion: I appear naked at home and have to fetch my own corpse?
Yeah it's weird. A more reasonable alternative would be cool, but somthing like ghosting as default has too much effect as a mechanic - you lose a lot of impact for immersions sake, I think.
I'll have to think on it......
See my post above ^^ for an idea about CR's and immersion!
I did read it and it's inventive, yup, but I'm not fond of it, sorry hehe. It certaionly makes more sense than fetching your own corpse though :)
I had a thought while reading it though and edited my original post: -
Maybe you *do* become a ghost, but you *can* be attacked (and fight). Your interactions would be affected/limited (NPCs won't deal with you (sell, quest, etc.), except at the church/graveyard (corpse related activities). You are part of an 'undead' faction whilst ghosted... hmm. Maybe there are some NPCs you could deal with and quests and things you can only do as a ghost!...
Importantly, you *can* talk to players to persuade them to help you (maybe even still group with them) and you have (most of) your abilities to do the corpse run. You can perhaps still collect basic equipment from a bank or your house to help you (otherwise a melee ghost is greatly disadvantaged compared to a caster one). Hmm that's a bit clunky - what if you're ghost has limited ghost versions of your equipment? Hmm.
Ooo gonna think more on this... I like it - then I would - it's my idea.
Realy like this ide of a ghost realm gives the game a new dimension to explore
With high enough perception you notice a "disturbence in the afterlife" and need a cleric or a potion to semi reach the ghost realm to speak to a ghost or a bard to play the spirits emotions to rest for it to leave and so on could be realy funn and new .
I'm going to list three specific concepts that I believe make up a good death system without going into specific mechanics. Because all too often when you start talking about specific death mechanics in an MMO, people get caught up in the mechanic - and not in the result the writer is suggesting they would like to see from that mechanic, or the emotion they hope to feel from that mechanic. I've posted those before... and have come to realize that I was putting my own blinders on. That is, I was too mired in specific mechanics and not seeing the forest for the trees.
So I will post the concepts, and leave it at that. Because for me, personally, if a death system is comprised of mechanics (whatever those mechanics are) that accomplish these three things (and no more) - it will be a good death system.
Here goes:
The result of dying should be proportional to what you are doing, and where you are doing it.
I had an EQ friend (a clothie) who died once because he went to the bank to get a ton of platinum to buy something. He walked out of the bank and, because of the weight of the money, the fall from walking down the steps killed him. I died multiple times with that friend pushing our way deeper into dungeons than we had a right to be pushing... knowing that death was probably going to happen at some point, but pushing anyway.
The impact of those two deaths should be vastly different. The death in town should take very little time and leave you feeling perhaps annoyed at yourself for being dumb enough to die in town. The death at the bottom of that dungeon should likely require energy and effort to recover from... you should have felt some fear of being there while your avatar was alive, pushing the boundaries of what you should be doing... because you knew, as we did, the potential ramifications of doing what you were doing - and where you were doing it.
Fear of death should set self imposed player boundaries
An understanding of the results that could occur (death) of doing content should be a consideration you have when you are deciding to do content. Are you willing to die there? This does not mean that you will never do that content... it just means that you will decide to do (or not to do) it now. This, ultimately, is likely good for you. That is, if the death ramifications make you unwilling to take the risk today, at some level, you possibly/probably feel like you WILL fail if you go there... or that you simply don't want to deal with dying there. If you went, and died... you would feel frustrated. That kind of frustration is bad. So don't go. Save it for later, when you are willing and ready.
Death should be a community builder, not a community breaker
You died. For the 1 billionth time. Is recovery something you were able to do alone 1 billion times? Does the community around you expect you to do it alone? Would they feel bothered if they had to help you recover? Those are all bad things. If you died in town (like my friend), then sure... you should be able to recover from that alone, and should be expected to do so... but that death at the bottom of a dungeon? You should likely need help recovering, and the community around you - guild - strangers - etc... should WANT to help you or be HAPPY to help you... because, if for no other reason, they know that they may someday need your help... or because they had previously gotten the help of some random stranger and remember how good it felt to be on the "I've just been helped" side of the equation.
Sunstalkr raises a good point - I tend to focus on leveling-up since that is what I spend the great bulk of my time doing. I wasn't really thinking of what happens at maximum level.
Assuming VR sticks with the decision not to allow deleveling in general, thought should be given to people at maximum level that aren't hurt by mere loss of xp.
The simple solution is to have maximum level an exception to the general rule. If 50 was the maximum level allow 50s to go down to 49 but no deleveling for anyone else.
Another solution would be loss of items but only for people at maximum level. There *does* need to be some pain for death at maximum level and repair costs aren't enough.
Maybe a ban on entering a raid or dungeon for a reasonably LONG period of logged in (not real world) time, stacking with each death.
Amsai said: Instead of Xp loss or deleveling. You could do cumulative rez sickness. Where the mote desths you get the more weak you get for a longer period.It would start small and only last like 30 mins. But build up to like 6 hours and having 1/3rd of your stats potency.
Everyone has had one of those really unlucky nights where nothing seems to go right, and you have multiple deaths. The system you propose essentially present a scenario in which a player might choose not to play the game at all until the timer on their debuffs has expired. I see aboslutely no value whatsoever in any system that encourages a player to just log off (or sit AFK) for hours or days. There should be no mechanic that tells the player to just hang up their hat for a while and come back later. It's entirely counterproductive to a compelling experience.
oneADseven said:I agree that deleveling should exist as it's a great way to keep max level players honest. Without deleveling, XP loss becomes trivial at max level. No aspect of the death penalty should be trivialized at max level in a hardcore game.
Agreed, absolutely.
Zorkon said:If you were grouped with higher levels that you were JUST high enough to group with, and you died... then you couldent get exp grouped. If this happened to anyone the rest of the group just power leveled that player through one or two kills and DING. He was back in the group and the cleric watched him close for the next few kills.
I don't really see this as a valid situation. There's got to be a threshold at which a group member no longer gains benefit from grouping with players higher than them. It could be argued that the player in your scenario was being powered thru content already, and squeeking by with the bare minimum of risk. At that point their reward for the group should have been scaled to a point that it was more beneficial for them to group with people closer to their level or the higher level players should use the mentor system.
Zorkon said:If there was a hypothetical dungon that you had to be 30 to enter and if you died, same thing, few kills and your back.. most just made sure they were half a level up before they would go to a dungon like that. Gave them coush in case of a death.
Also not a valid concern to me. There are any number of scenarios is which the entire group would be forced to go back and get a level in order to continue attempting encounters that are at the fringe of their capabilities. Regardless, I think it's poor design to require a particular level to enter a dungeon to begin with. It's a gimmicky artificial mechanic that smells fishy as hell regardless of the good intentions that may have spawned it.
Zorkon said:There are stories of players binding there soul in bad places, going afk and coming back to multiple lost levels. Heard them, never actually seen em. And who on earth would bind someplce like that?
Bad player choices should produce bad consequences. If you want the freedom to make stupid choices (and I do) you should accept the potential results.
All of these scenarios have one additional thing in common : If you're hovering on the verge of losing a level and you choose to enter that scenario anyway, you've chosen poorly. In EQ it was readily accepted that given the possibility of level loss you always made sure you had a cushion of xp into a level before attempting something that could well produce multiple deaths so that you didnt lose your level. It was a respect for the mechanic that made you think ahead, account for potential outcomes, and plan accordingly. It is something I deeply miss, no matter how much losing a level pissed me off at the time.
Zorkon said:I knew ONE person that had a real bad exp with it, he had just gotten out of the military and he took $2000 and bought a 50 Necro on ebeay....
The rest of whatever this paragraph was about was not read. **** anyone that's buying characters. While I generally fully support our troops, I don't care about any consequences that befall someone that's going to participate in the secondary market. I'd be perfectly happy if the rest of this paragraph stated that logged in, saw that their account was banned, and then their computer bluescreened and started to billow smoke.