chenzeme said:Feyshtey: A tiny mistake should be all it takes to cause significant pain if the mistake is made in an encounter with the greatest possible rewards. I will grant you that in a basic dungeon grind group a tiny mistake shouldnt be enough to cause a wipe, let alone lose significant playtime recovering. But if the tiny mistake is a raid on a mob that is higher difficulty than your guild is geared/practiced/disciplined enough to tackle, then a mistake should be down-right dibilitating.
I think my point is getting a little bit skewed. I was not complaining that mistakes shouldn't cause wipes or be punished. They most definitely should do so, in raids or PVE. If I or a party member does a dumb thing then I am absolutely fine with being wiped and getting a penalty because of it, but (specifically in PVE) there has to be a way to get back to your equipment without doing a naked run through hostile territory which can take longer than the original progression took. It shouldn’t be a piece of cake, but, if it took you an hour to get to where you wiped fully equipped, then it will take considerable longer being naked. That isn’t fun and should not be what the game is about. XP loss, fine. Death sickness, yup. Temporary stat adjustment, fine. Just allow a group to get back their equipment relatively easily, so the fun can begin again. Personally, I’m fine with corpse pulls, soul runs and/or player summons. Make the death penalties apply to actual game play, not to the amount of time it takes to get the party back together again.
There is: Get help.
Ask people in the zone. Ask guildmates. Offer to pay a rogue to sneak and and drag. Offer to pay a necro to summon corpse (when necro's are in, and assuming summons are in). The point is the game is supposed to be heavily focused on interdependency and cooperation. Assistance with recoveries in risky places seems a perfect fit for those criteria.
I have always been a fan of harsh death penalty in an MMO. It makes the fights seem more intense, it makes the setting and your surroundings mean so much more than they would if you died and picked the exp that was lost up in a matter of 2 or three kills. Maybe about 10-15 group kills gets you back where you were when you died. this is keeping in mind how hard the mobs seemed to be in the streams I have seen. If they scale back the NPC's and make them easier then obviously that number needs to go up.
I just try to keep in mind that this game and it's developers are catering to the more traditional hardcore MMO players. There can be a number of reasons to have death penalty easier but if you truly want to stick to your guns then you need to have the penalty of death be something players feel and have to earn back. Making them decide if pulling that pack of 3 mobs with a named is worth potentially dying for or not. I remember in old school EQ when you died it hurt. It never kept me from playing, it just made me more cautious about my surroundings and made me feel more immersed.
When I died, I dont want my gear on me when I come back to life. I want to have to go back to my corpse or be revived. I want to lose a good deal of EXP. I want to feel ill when revived. At high levels perhaps these effects can lesson with a better skilled Cleric or reviver. I dont want to be able to summon my corpse only unless Im a Summoner or "1 or 2" of the classes that could do that at higher a level.
I'm sorry guys, but losing exp is not a harsh penalty when you get plenty of time for playing, same for corpse recovery, in most cases it is just time and not difficulty.
Death is not feared when a guild can make 20 tries on a boss in a row, death is not feared when raid leaders order a wipe instead of fighting to the death, death is not feared when you can die 20 or 30 times in a day with just a small xp loss due to big rez, death is not feared when raid leaders uses tactics based on corpse dragging to avoid some fights in dungeons, death is not feared when players get killed to use their corpse as traveling points, etc ...
I think death penalties should be encourage fighting to the death by using each single drop of hp and mana, that's why I promote a cumulative long debuff localized to the zone you died in, making harder and harder to fight in and making the players move to another zone if they die too often. It could even be cumulated to exp loss and corpse run (CR that I would limit in time cause I wanna promote fight time).
Khendall said:I'm sorry guys, but losing exp is not a harsh penalty when you get plenty of time for playing, same for corpse recovery, in most cases it is just time and not difficulty.
Death is not feared when a guild can make 20 tries on a boss in a row, death is not feared when raid leaders order a wipe instead of fighting to the death, death is not feared when you can die 20 or 30 times in a day with just a small xp loss due to big rez, death is not feared when raid leaders uses tactics based on corpse dragging to avoid some fights in dungeons, death is not feared when players get killed to use their corpse as traveling points, etc ...
I think death penalties should be encourage fighting to the death by using each single drop of hp and mana, that's why I promote a cumulative long debuff localized to the zone you died in, making harder and harder to fight in and making the players move to another zone if they die too often. It could even be cumulated to exp loss and corpse run (CR that I would limit in time cause I wanna promote fight time).
I have mixed emotions about this. I'm remembering back to the days that it might take me weeks to get a group of people willing, online, and available to help tackle a stage of a quest only I needed. (Necro = Pariah). A failed attempt or two couple with debuffs that make the encounter even more difficult might make it nearly impossible to get those tasks completed. While I scrounged together the needed requirements on one night eventually, it'd be hell to go thru that multiple times for one encounter of the course of months.
@Khendall I dont know, it just seems to punish people for trying to overcome a challenge. I have no issue at all with a requirement that you recover your gear, or xp, or perhaps other functions. I do not understand a penalty that makes that game after your recovery harder.
Punishing perserverance just seems counterproductive to me in a game where overcoming difficulty should be embraced.
Feyshtey said:@Khendall I dont know, it just seems to punish people for trying to overcome a challenge. I have no issue at all with a requirement that you recover your gear, or xp, or perhaps other functions. I do not understand a penalty that makes that game after your recovery harder.
Punishing perserverance just seems counterproductive to me in a game where overcoming difficulty should be embraced.
I have to agree i mean if you saw the stream that just happened today it seems pretty easy to wipe, especially those npc's in the red armor, so if i died like 5 to 6 times and i had a debuff on me for like a week i prolly would lose interest into playing mainly becuase i wanted to still play it but had a debuff on me that made it too difficult to do so, like imagine your fighting a end dungeon boss and you failed lets say 7 times until you succeed you should be rewarded for finally killing him without the worry of a debuff, the debuff in itself would almost make you not even want to venture in that far for the mere fact of having a higher risk or dying and acquiring the debuff to begin with, the corpse run in itself would be a pain to get your body back we simply don't need the debuff to make it more challenging than that.
ijester said:Im just happy there is no deleveling xD
I'm actually sad they are leaning towards no deleveling. I think the risk of loosing the ability to use a new spell upon dying adds to the strategy and planning when playing. Also I feel it reduces rez spells. They kinda just function as a teleport spell back to the corpse, because I won't loose any abilitys etc. The only point I'd even worry about getting exp back would be when I'm close to the next level. And at max level deleveling would be the only thing keeping me from regarding death as anything more than a minor nuisance :)
-sorte.
Edit: Removed my statement about not being able to equip armor/weapon upon deleveling. With Pantheons scaling armor/weapons it would never be a problem :)
@Feyshtey @Riahuff22
The point is to make it harder and harder in the zone you died in, not in other zones, that are still accessible without penalty, and it could be coupled to graveyards for less time consuming CR for example. The numbers I gave are illustrations and require to be tuned, but the principe is that the first debuff levels are not painful, but after a certain amount it grows quickly and the message should be clear.
When I read this topic, I got the feeling that many considered death being less acceptable when it concerns a more casual group trying a difficult dungeons, than when it concerns raid players. In my mind death should be equally painful for everyone, if a casual group gets X wipes in a dungeon, it should be considered the same way than a raid wiping X times before a boss, and so the message should be the same : go elsewhere. Perseverance cannot be considered as a virtue for a raid, and as a blind stubborness for a more casual group/player.
The kind of debuff I propose sends the same message to everyone : if you die to much, go elsewhere, no matter the type of player you are. And it also makes the 'corpse exploitation' far more difficult.
Another important thing is that too many tries on bosses are cut when something is not perfect or when a bad pull occured. There are too many 'evac, comeback, rez, rebuff' or 'wipe, comeback, rez, rebuff', and I think that players should be encouraged to fight to the death and not giving up too easily, we deserve epic fights, and I'm not satisfied when there are too many escape strategies because of wipe and CR fear.
Overly heavy penalties leads to teams taking less risk or will just break down teams. Used to happen in EQ1 all the time. You do need risk but it needs to be tempered with reason. In the stream how many times did the wizard die just because she played her class? How long till people will only dungeon crawl when you have the perfect team? That will alienate classes. I think its far enough with this build. No deleveling.
@Kendall I get it. I just dont like it.
Ever heard of the expression "get back in the saddle"? When something knocks me down, even if it does so repeatedly, the last thing I want to do is just walk away. I want to go back and sink my teeth into its neck till its dead. Artificial mechanics that would eventually make an encounter impossible would do nothing short of piss me off. If I died the first time, or the second or fifth, why make it harder for me to succeed? It's obviously kicking my ass already. If someone wants to lose all the xp in their level, spend 2-4 hours retrieving multiple corpses, let em. What's the harm? Make the death itself painful by not getting a notable amount of the xp back by any means. Damage their gear and force them to go back to town. Make them pay a penalty they can pay in a reasonble amount of time and get back in the saddle.
The chilling kiss of death stings and should'nt be trivialized down to something that has very little effect or consequences. Death is very bad and should be as equally unpleasnt. Its a natural penalty for to many wrong actions or the lack there of. If it is not the most negitive thing that could happen to you in game it should be. It will make for a more cunning player that will learn from it and will find respect for the laws of life and death and when or if you are able to narrowly escape death. The feeling of achivment and accomplishment that comes is much more greater than the fear of a terrible demise by overcoming the odds with those you are defending, supporting or keeping alive doing your part in representing your class to the best or fullest of your skill and ability because you know your companions depend on you as much as they do you and we all know what is at stake! Unless you are one of those that dabble in such arts and flirt with evil arcane. You will not be found wanting at this Ladies door! She is bad news!
I died once,I lost exp. and new lvl, I lost my corpse and it rotted. The exp. items and gear I replaced it with was far better than the old. I learned and respected that. I like to think it made me a more refined and polished type of player. As long as risk and reward are great even so will the experience and feeling of feats of accomplishments be.
No point in repeating my opinions given earlier in the thread on the death penalty. None has changed.
I consider the deleveling issue of far less importance than the size of the penalty. A loss of .01 level that can delevel you stings a lot less than a loss of .25 level that cannot.
I agree with the decision given the potential for breaking groups as discussed above by others.
I feel there is inconsistency when I look at the topics discussing the acclimation system and the one here discussing the death penalty.
In the acclimation system discussion people feel that it is to easy if you get permanent protection, that one injection and then done is to simple. You should be able to build up your resist and be able to lose it, having to start over reaching the level you formaly had.
But here it is the opposite. One Ding and you are set for life. No real consequenc to dying as opposed to having to work to get your acclimation back if lost.
With the armor and weapons scaling, the threat of deleveling would not force you to carry extra equipment. The deleveling would only effect spells and other things tied to your level.
The arguments for losing and regaining acclimation, for me fits perfectly on this topic. One injection (or Ding) is just to easy.
-sorte.
@sorte
Not exacly the same, you can ding by doing just about any type of content (it can be hard or easy), while if you want to get the best acclimation possible you need to do hard content.
I don't mind that deleving is gone, but XP debt with stats penalty is soemthing I'd love to see (if you have a certain amount of XP debt your stats take a penalty). that way XP is relevant even if you're max level and you have an incentive for grinding XP, and avoiding death.
Caesium said:I'm certainly in favour of choice. Choice is what makes the game interesting after all.
Essentially, give me the option whether I want this death to cost me 50% of my levels XP (summon corpse), 10% (recover tombstone?), or 1% (get a rez). Plucked these numbers out of thin air, so if the point of the thread is to determine those numbers I'm afraid I'm no use at all :)
I agree with Caesium. Regardless of what the choices are and what amounts are in those choices.
I think the concern around groups breaking up is overstated. Harsh penalties put us all in the same boat, and instead of kicking the poor guy, we're all far more likely to work extra hard to get that level back. This game should be difficult enough that individuals will look to support eachother rather than have that lone-wolf/out-for-myself mentality. Everyone is going to die. They'll know what it feels like. And unless someone is straight up trolling, group wipes will be a group thing not because of the decision of one person. If you're consistently wiping on certain content, it'll be pretty clear that you're not ready for that content.
If anything, I think the lack of harsh penalties/difficult combat has lead to the far more elitist mentality we see in today's gaming communities. Impossibile content is no fun, but challenging content with commensurate rewards/penalties is so much more exciting. I'm not looking for some kind of survival game, but death should definitely be painful.
As to acclimation, I like their current approach. Make early tiers not too hard to get, but later tiers very difficult to acquire. The problem with losing a "permanent" buff is it essentially makes what your currently doing either impossible or that much harder. And you already just died. It's the same issue with adding a de-buff on death. The content is clearly already difficult, now it may be impossible.
Sorte said:ijester said:Im just happy there is no deleveling xD
I'm actually sad they are leaning towards no deleveling. I think the risk of loosing the ability to use a new spell upon dying adds to the strategy and planning when playing. Also I feel it reduces rez spells. They kinda just function as a teleport spell back to the corpse, because I won't loose any abilitys etc. The only point I'd even worry about getting exp back would be when I'm close to the next level. And at max level deleveling would be the only thing keeping me from regarding death as anything more than a minor nuisance :)
-sorte.
Edit: Removed my statement about not being able to equip armor/weapon upon deleveling. With Pantheons scaling armor/weapons it would never be a problem :)
I agree with Sorte here as I hope deleveling makes the final cut. As far as it "breaking a group" if the player lost the level in our group, I hope it would be our groups new quest at that point to help him recover it, not throw him out. I wouldn't want to be in a group that thought anything less.
I think with deleveling, a contrasting DONG sound should be added to go along with the DING they have for gaining a level. Letting the group know a member has taken a loss and needs our help to recover (every bit as important as a corpse run)
Zorkon said:Sorte said:ijester said:Im just happy there is no deleveling xD
I'm actually sad they are leaning towards no deleveling. I think the risk of loosing the ability to use a new spell upon dying adds to the strategy and planning when playing. Also I feel it reduces rez spells. They kinda just function as a teleport spell back to the corpse, because I won't loose any abilitys etc. The only point I'd even worry about getting exp back would be when I'm close to the next level. And at max level deleveling would be the only thing keeping me from regarding death as anything more than a minor nuisance :)
-sorte.
Edit: Removed my statement about not being able to equip armor/weapon upon deleveling. With Pantheons scaling armor/weapons it would never be a problem :)I agree with Sorte here as I hope deleveling makes the final cut. As far as it "breaking a group" if the player lost the level in our group, I hope it would be our groups new quest at that point to help him recover it, not throw him out. I wouldn't want to be in a group that thought anything less.
I think with deleveling, a contrasting DONG sound should be added to go along with the DING they have for gaining a level. Letting the group know a member has taken a loss and needs our help to recover (every bit as important as a corpse run)
It all really depends like with the new stragedy and everything that they haven't even put inot the game deleveling could be something very easy to happen and if they stick with the exp debt instead that could be the better route, like with just pulling that one mob was a bit painful to watch with the tank losing health like he was and i bet anything he will gain a knockdown/knockback to go with it so positioning him would be even more important on him and not to include the caster using cover and such to limit taking hits and everything, exp debt might be the way to go, instead of loss of level i can see it working for one deleveling is hard to scale with everything else they are putting into the game ill let deleveling slide in my book.
Khendall said:@Feyshtey @Riahuff22
The point is to make it harder and harder in the zone you died in, not in other zones, that are still accessible without penalty, and it could be coupled to graveyards for less time consuming CR for example. The numbers I gave are illustrations and require to be tuned, but the principe is that the first debuff levels are not painful, but after a certain amount it grows quickly and the message should be clear.
When I read this topic, I got the feeling that many considered death being less acceptable when it concerns a more casual group trying a difficult dungeons, than when it concerns raid players. In my mind death should be equally painful for everyone, if a casual group gets X wipes in a dungeon, it should be considered the same way than a raid wiping X times before a boss, and so the message should be the same : go elsewhere. Perseverance cannot be considered as a virtue for a raid, and as a blind stubborness for a more casual group/player.
The kind of debuff I propose sends the same message to everyone : if you die to much, go elsewhere, no matter the type of player you are. And it also makes the 'corpse exploitation' far more difficult.
Another important thing is that too many tries on bosses are cut when something is not perfect or when a bad pull occured. There are too many 'evac, comeback, rez, rebuff' or 'wipe, comeback, rez, rebuff', and I think that players should be encouraged to fight to the death and not giving up too easily, we deserve epic fights, and I'm not satisfied when there are too many escape strategies because of wipe and CR fear.
I understand what your saying and since this game seems to alrdy be harder than original eq by a lot of means (mobs hit harder, have a ton more health, will be using strat, with other abilities), so im going to bring up a decent raid target in kunark which was just too easily to wipe on even trying your hardest til they found out where to fight him. Trak the undead dragon that had his poison aoe, simply wiped out players with ease if you weren't careful the dmg pre tick back than was huge especially for casters and was a huge stress for clerics to keep anyone up let alone they still have the tanks to worry about so most of this fell on the druids/shamans to help out and even then it was painful. Now i imagine somethign harder than this on Pantheon sense the normal mobs are alrdy hitting harder and everything else, so i can easily seeing the first raiding grp wiping possibily maybe 13 times-25 times to figure out what all is going on and what all his mechanics might be but if they get this penalty than they will simply just have to try a few times write down what they figure out, and in time try again and do it again and repeat, granted this does add a challenge but is it a nesscary one? imho it isn't and it could stop people from even wanting to raid these targets knowing it could take a few weeks or something to even down him once, and would be simply to stressful and not really all that fun just thinking baout it honestly.