fazool said:All of the arguments about maximizing efficiency and time and high end guilds are so incredibly mis guided.
That mentality is exactly the mentality that ruined the MMORPG genre.
If I want to play a game where the important thing is to thumb twitch maximally because it's all about DPS then I'll go play COD
Everybody is more than welcome to play however they want. My argument most certainly isn't mis-guided. I explained why parsers are used in almost every high-end guild, and this is even more evident in an open-world game that features plenty of contested content. We aren't talking about speed-runs through a dungeon instance that you can compare to other players. We're talking about guilds wanting to be as efficient as possible with their time so that they can better position themselves to experience more content on a daily basis.
I am not the kind of person that enjoys add-ons. I would agree that they water down the experience and have voiced my argument against add-ons in general and even DPS parsers earlier in this thread (check my post on page 4.) That said, if they aren't outright banned (they most likely won't be) then you either choose to leverage them or you do not. As someone who enjoys tackling challenging content, it's basically considered being irresponsible if you don't study performance and identify opportunities for improvement. At the same time, it's entirely possible for folks to use the tool irresponsibly. Knowing the difference is key.
Nay to addons.
As a guild leader for high end guilds in the past, I have required addons, because its really the only way to compete in games that have them. But I really wish I could go back in time, before addons, it was much more fun then. Addons just suck the fun right out of the game.
Razorbrains said:Nay to addons.
As a guild leader for high end guilds in the past, I have required addons, because its really the only way to compete in games that have them. But I really wish I could go back in time, before addons, it was much more fun then. Addons just suck the fun right out of the game.
Yeah, either DPS logs arn't on the players pc or there are no numbers but words like MUDS used to use.
You hit a honeybadger hard. (dmg 1-10)
You hit a honeybadger very hard. (11-50)
You annilihate a honeybadger. (51-100)
You DESTROY a honeybadger. (101+)
Course that may not work as it limits upward growth as each new damage range needs a new word.
Also HP and mana numbers would need to be replaced also.
Maybe a fun special rulset server lol
Porygon said:bobwinner said:Porygon said:but even in wow, actual raiders (good raiders) would still analyze logs to determine who was dpsing the boss when they should have been killing adds. Who was standing in fire to max dps when they should have been moving... good players look at these things. It's not just blindly following the number on the meter like you seem to think.
Excuse me, but as Pantheon isn't going to be a fast action game (korean games or WoW on mythic difficulty), people will be able to pretty much notice who did what wrong, by just looking at what is happening during the fight... unless you have tunnel vision and are only looking at your UI/cooldowns (which should only happen in fast action games anyways).
There is no need for a dpsmeter or any other addon for this. Look at the damn game.
/sigh
This is just wrong. 100%.
Please reread all of the posts in this thread for your answers.
To reiterate. EQ was MUCH slower combat than pantheon looks to be. And parsers were extremely beneficial.
It isn't wrong at all. Some people "get it".
They can make DPS meters bannable the same as FFXIV does. They mostly turn a blind eye to it until someone uses them to discriminate against other players.
They could also obfuscate the numbers of other players in the combat log which would (mostly) only allow players to parse themselves.
I was speaking with someone who plays FFXIV a bunch earlier and they basically told me the same thing, Iksar. They don't really enforce any sort of anti-parsing measure unless people are using them irresponsibly -- a good example would be linking parses and telling someone how bad they are at the game because they aren't hitting a certain number.
oneADseven said:Everybody is more than welcome to play however they want. My argument most certainly isn't mis-guided. I explained why parsers are used in almost every high-end guild, and this is even more evident in an open-world game that features plenty of contested content. We aren't talking about speed-runs through a dungeon instance that you can compare to other players. We're talking about guilds wanting to be as efficient as possible with their time so that they can better position themselves to experience more content on a daily basis.
I am not the kind of person that enjoys add-ons. I would agree that they water down the experience and have voiced my argument against add-ons in general and even DPS parsers earlier in this thread (check my post on page 4.) That said, if they aren't outright banned (they most likely won't be) then you either choose to leverage them or you do not. As someone who enjoys tackling challenging content, it's basically considered being irresponsible if you don't study performance and identify opportunities for improvement. At the same time, it's entirely possible for folks to use the tool irresponsibly. Knowing the difference is key.
I am of the same sentiment honestly. I played EQ way back before there was DPS meters, I knew I was on the hairy edge most of the time as a Wizard. My assumptions were usually cemented when I would get summoned during furious and my face got ripped off. I didn't need a DPS meter I had a feel for what I could do with my tanks. It took awhile to aqcuire that though. However when DPS parcers came out I was always eager to see what someone posted. I liked bettering myself and continuing to work at my craft. So while I never really ran one I did rely heavily on one eventually. And it was also an easy way to see who the slackers were and who was doing their job as far as DPS is concerned. This is all mostly raid content though. If you're going to bust someone's chops with dps reports in a group setting then it's probably going a little overboard.
One thing I liked about EQ was the raid leader exp. And unlocking health of targets target and MT rotation, things like that were always fun to look forward to, would have been a good addon to put it as a raid leader AA ability. I can function just fine in a game with or without them.
I guess i should clarify when i refer to "DPS meter" I am more or less speaking to programs like ACT. Where it not only shows DPS but i can take your paladin/rogue that is struggleing and actually see what he cast and when.
Is your rogue pulling aggro and causing the healer to spend a ton more mana? Look at the last 5 fights and what buttons he hit and in what order and say "hey, dont hit this after this and you wont pull aggro"
Cant stun a raid boss or cant cast a mana drain ability because it triggers a huge AoE? if you keep wiping from that boss because some idiot keeps casting one of those and no one takes responsibility(or may not even know that ability has a mana drain component)its as easier as looking at the breakdown.
Its very important for any cutting edge/high end guild. I also do not care if its in game or out of game, im not sure where that came from.
Also, as i said before, add ons that tell you when to joust in and out I prefer not to have. It puts that much more distance between the good guilds and mediocre if its left out.
While reading Aich's recounting of how MUD damage was displayed, I got back to thinking about how damage could be obscured from the player. It got me thinking that the perception system would be a great fit for learning to discern how much damage was done. This is the core concept - use perception to allow players to see more numbers progressively as they get better with that vein of the perception skill. The following is just the first implementation that came to mind.
Maybe you could use your perception skill to tune in to a mob type or other player? If you spend enough time (6 hours at a guess?) fighting a certain mob type or grouped with a player, then you could become attuned to them. Maybe some rare mobs or raid bosses that you would struggle getting 6 hours fighting could be learned about through quests or hunting down scrolls about that mob type.
Without any perception: Your damage output is known, but enemy mitigation is not taken into account. No other player's damage is known.
With perception and enemy attunement: Your damage output is shown taking into account enemy mitigation, but no other player's output is known.
With perception and enemey/ally attunement: Your damage output and the damage output of allies is seen with mitigation taken into account.
Hrmmm... I wonder if this post is too far afield from the OP now. Addons - damage parsers - damage information - perception.
I say Nay
The UI should be enough with key bindings and macros. In my experience most addons are usually just under the hood fluff to give information to stat grinders or makes game play lazy. Don't get me wrong, there are some helpful addons, but if it means giving the client more information so that some players can then use it exploit the game. Definitelt not.