Do you use add-ons (Dps and Aggro meters, Healer helpers etc.) in other MMORPGs and if so, what do you like about them? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Twitter Poll: https://twitter.com/PantheonMMO/status/1008665715367280640
When Addons and mods first arrived in EQ1 there was a great deal of enthusiasm surrounding their use. DPS meters, maps, UI tools etc were really popular. However it wasn't long before addons were developed which could tell you the loot each raid boss was carrying. These were quickly exploited by large high end guilds resulting in some bans.
Having experienced some of this I feel the raw EQ build, no maps, no target helpers etc is the best way forward. It isn't the easiest way, but the challenge forced group work. I believe this is the ethos of Pantheon and welcome a return to a game where addons are prohibited.
Blood
Nay.
I use add-ons, but only because they end up mandatory. A well designed interface modular enough shouldn't require add ons to be functionnal. Most of the time, lazy developpers bring no work in interface as long as lua coders are doing it for free, and the complexity and hand-holding of thoses add-ons make the game reshape around them, boss mods, warnings, questhelpers all pushed games into the void of fastfood mmos.
I know that this is a touchy subject for lots of people, but I do personally like addons to a certain degree. My take is as long as it allows the player to adjust how information is displayed without giving him a way to automate gameplay then Addons do add a lot of value. Some people feel that addons help people too much by creating a whack-a-mole situation: the addon tells you what to do and when to do it. But I think that in any MMO there is going to be timing situations where you do something at specific times: When the target is stunned, use your "Bonus to stunned targets" ability. The game is going to give me that information in some way regardless, so if an addon lets me see this kind of info in a configurable way, then it is good. As long as it doesn't make the decision for me.
As for DPS/Aggro meters I think that these are polorzied for a very different reason (not dependent on Addon), since it creates a situation of "I am better than you!" syndrome. People feel that if they are high on the dps meter, this makes them a better player than those at the bottom of the dps meters. It also can be used as an excuse by raid leaders to purge themselves of less useful players who can't keep up with others with dps. Or it creates Class envy when one Class seems to always be ahead of the other classes on dps. So while some people feel this is a good thing so that your raids are at peak performance, others see that it means that less proficient players will get excluded or even some classes will get excluded until they are rebalanced to compete better on the dps meter.
Some people will agrue that "If they can't see how bad I am on a dps meter, they won't exclude me from raids, therefore dps meters should not be in the game."
Yet of course dps meters are going to exsist no matter what, since people will just create tools to parse combat logs outside of the game. The game may delay combat log so as to not have real-time data available but the dps meter is still going to exist after the fact where people can still see who is high on the list or low on the list. So this kind of problem will be there even without an in game realtime addon dps meter.
Bloodfire said: However it wasn't long before addons were developed which could tell you the loot each raid boss was carrying.
You are thinking of external data-sniffing programs which are not addons to the game and worked by parsing the data that the server sent to the client. These were totally 3rd party programs that had nothing to do with the game and were not loaded in the game client in any way. VR has already said that they will be creating the system so that data sent to the client will be as minimal as possible so that this kind of data-sniffing will not give players the type of advantage it may have done in past games.
On a side note, in EQ1 you could often tell some of a bosses loot simply by seeing what he was weilding. ie Monsters decided their loot at spawn and would equip these items and they could show up on his avatar. The items effects would trigger as well when you fought them, so even if the item didn't show up on his avatar, if you saw the effects proc'ing during the fight, you knew he would drop that item when you killed him.
Yay
I like the limitless potential that addons bring. Whatever devs can't prioritize or maybe nobody even thought of can in some manners be supplied by creative people making addons. I remember there was an addon in WoW that let me play chess vs. somebody else with the addon for example :P A more useful though still quite unique addon is one called consoleport which adapts the whole warcraft UI to work with a gamepad controller. It all works quite nicely to be honest and I think its something that wouldn't have been on the top prio list for the devs at all.
Oh and I guess I just like to change the looks of the UI to my preference as well.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Yet of course dps meters are going to exsist no matter what, since people will just create tools to parse combat logs outside of the game. The game may delay combat log so as to not have real-time data available but the dps meter is still going to exist after the fact where people can still see who is high on the list or low on the list. So this kind of problem will be there even without an in game realtime addon dps meter.
Yes I imagine you are right. DPS meters will happen regardless of the developer. Still, I stand by what I said earlier, I believe addons are counter intuitive to group based social gameplay. They either avoid the need to talk to others to get information or antagonise people through elitism.
That said, I'm happy to be persuaded to the contrary, can anyone think of a positive addon that does not impact social interaction.
Blood
Bloodfire - go re-read my post as I edited and added a responce to your previous post.
Bloodfire said: That said, I'm happy to be persuaded to the contrary, can anyone think of a positive addon that does not impact social interaction.
One addon that I really found useful in WoW was powerauras (later came weakauras that was very similar). This allowed you to create visual queues for things such as when a buff or debuff was active or inactive. This wouldn't create any button, or actually do any actions for you. It simply created a visual effect on your screen when the criteria was matched. For example if you setup a criteria that said "When my target is stunned... show me a big flashing Skull". Since the game will have some sort of display or text that tells me when a target is stunned it's not as if this is cheating and giving me information that I shouldn't have... it just gives me a bigger and noticable Icon that I can see even in the heat of battle when lots of spell effects are going off and I may not be reading the text log to see that "Target is stunned" message.
This also can be used as a reminder when longer cooldowns become available. For example I could setup a criteria that says: If I am in combat and my 3 minute long cooldown BigBaddaBoom spell is available (not on cooldown) show me the word 'BOOM' in the center of my screen. Then, in the heat of the battle I'm pew-pew'ing away with my normal spells, then suddenly the word 'BOOM' appears I know ok my big spell is ready and can decide if I want to use it right away or save it for an important moment.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Bloodfire - go re-read my post as I edited and added a responce to your previous post.
Thanks Goofy, I understand your point of view and respect it. I still maintain though, addons add functionality to the game which otherwise would have resulted in more social interaction. As I said I'm happy to have the debate and even change my mind, but I honestly cant think of a single addon that didn't impair social interaction or incite elitism. (Chess and ordering Pizza in RL apart, they are in a different league :p) I realise I'm setting myself up for someone to post a list of addons that I havn't considered, but that's ok. I'm not being 'precious' about this, it's just my opinion thus far, happy to learn more.
Blood.
disposalist said:I'd like it if VR somehow stopped it from being possible to parse logs even, at least until well after real time.
I've played MUDs that didn't even use 'numbers' to indicate damage or stats etc. It was all based on phrases such as 'critical hit, powerful hit, glancing blow'.... Armor was designated as, 'sold armor, flimsy armor, mediocre armor' etc. Really made it fun messing around with items to work out which was better and which was similar but had other neat perks associated with it.
Numbers and min/maxing can sometimes just be a downer.
I'd say nay, only because it gets to be too much and can be incredibly overwhelming with the amount of options, and then your screen gets cluttered and ugly and (as someone mentioned before) it becomes too exploity. I miss playing an MMO where the screen was set to how the screen was meant to be set, and everyone was -- more or less -- the same. It makes me feel like, "Oh my god, is his set up better than my set up?" or "Oh, do I have to have this plugin to be better?" If it were up to me, I'd make everyone play with the classic EQ screen where like 75% of it was taken up with chat, abilities and spells and one little tiny window for seeing. LOL.
I am against the NEED for add-ons. Add-ons usually come in three types: input organization, output organization and bling.
If an add-on is needed in order for a player to properly recognize information input from the game then that in game input either needs to be changed or the difficulty to read it is part of encounter balance that should not be circumvent able.
Output organization add-ons that streamline button clicks and tell you when it is time to do something tend to become mandatory and contribute to managing your UI rather than playing the game. I would be against any UI add-ons that can send any sort of command to the server. This also will prevent some of the client issues that end up causing CSRs headaches chasing bugs not caused by VR.
Bling add-ons are kinda fun and can be a way to personalize the organization of your outputs and the in game inputs that come to the client rather than world environment inputs that must be player observed. Most of this category is just a function of a skin able, scale able, configurable UI. I would also put most meters in this category as they are mostly vanity tools.
It would be interesting though if your DPS meter actually was able to tell you things in a dynamic fight that might be hard to notice one combat line at a time. This would also be an example of how I would prefer any information to either have a key word flag in the combat text or better yet some in game visual that would tell you it was time to switch from cold damage to fire damage.
Trasak
NO.
If add-ons are a thing, they will be required. Then the game will be the same **** WoW is. A game of UI watching.
Make it hard to parse. If someone wants to parse soooo bad then they can built an app to do it. I'm all for no combat logging output to make it that much harder.
Down with Add-ons.
Down with DPS meters.
I am against add-ons for a different, strategic, reason:
Add-ons like DPS meters change the focus of the game and suddenly it beomces about DPS numbers and not the content. THis is one of the many small, insidious things that degrade the immersion of the game world. Instead of living the battle through your character, you are playing a DPS video game.
It's hard to describe but these "real world" tools detract from the ":virtual world" experience. and build a wall between the player and the character.
No from me.
I will only pay for a game long term if I feel everyone is on an even playing field. The more add ons you throw in the more one person has an advantage. All the add ons can get pretty ridiculous. It is definitely not limited to only the few that Kils listed in the OP.
It's one of those things where if you give players an inch they take a mile. I feel that it needs to be heavily restricted or it will be taken advantage of.
vjek said:Looking forward to writing yet another log analyzer for yet another MMO. :)
I really do wish that VR would not allow combat logs to output from the game. I'd love it if no information left the client at all.
If people want to parse, force them to write a more complicated program that reads memory. Make it HARD to do. I know it can't really be stopped, but make it DAMN hard.
I am 100% sure this won't happen, but I can dream no?
I am not sure why, but I have never used any add-on for any game. That being said, I am not against them in any way. There are a lot of folks out there with health difficulties that actually DO need these in one way or another and I applaud the efforts of those that are out there making these for those that need them. If you don't actually need them - I am not against you either. I love when a DevTeam makes it so that an end-user is able to make small adjustments to his client that allows them to enjoy a game more fully. I just prefer to enjoy the game through the eyes of the developer.