I'm not a fan of add ons personally. I like DPS charts after a raid mob when I was DPS'ing and trying to be as good as I can. But to go so far as to implement a few of these programs I'd pass. That was part of the fun to me in early EQ was you never knew when you were about to pull aggro it just happened and your heart always skipped a beat.
Big no for me, UI costumization (resizing sutff, moving things around, new skins etc) I'm fine with DPS/HPS meters I don't care for but would preffer if they stay out, anything beyond that is a hard no for me, specially addons that make combat easier, like Boss mods and timers, healer helper addons, radar/range addons, roation addons, sound warning for standing in fire etc.
Everything that plays the game for you, or makes gameplay easier, by reducing the amount of attention and awereness required is terrible for the game and takes away the enjoyment of actually playing the game by yourself with no extra external helps.
Not to mention that most usefull addons is be required by 90%+ of the player base, because in a group focussed game where everyone is dependant of each other, no one likes to handicap themselves of play with player handicaping themselves on pourpouse by not using an addons that makes everything trivial.
I've been thinking a lot lately about what drove me to leave WoW, because originally I liked it enough that I moved there with a good portion of my EQ guild. After taking all of the floating quest markers, the railed progression from quest hub to quest hub, and any other thing I may mention about the game, I have to pin the reason I quit on the 'perfection' of DBM (Deadly Boss Mods).
At the point that I quit WoW (not sure if it's still like this), DBM was a WoW addon that basically automated boss fights to the point of flashing a big text warning and making a noise for each boss ability, telling you what you need to do and when to do it. It took almost all of the last bit of challenge out of the game, at least from my point of view. And it's not like it was optional, if you didn't have it you weren't raiding.
I don't see any harm in allowing something like UI reskinning.
But really, I find myself hoping that everything VR has said about informing us when Devastating Attacks are incoming comes to pass, we will have all of that kind of information that we will need to react, as long as we are paying attention. So we may have to learn a fight...that's the point! Give me that, and I'll be fine with a well designed UI with some robust ingame customization options...location, grid size (spells/abilities), transparency, scaling (seperate by window), maybe background color.
I use certain things like maps, music player, or whatever because they are available. If they aren't i will figure it out on my own. I have a printer or a pen and paper to create a rough map. I don't use parsing or dps tools because someone else is usually all over that and i can learn from thier information. As far as the voice triggers, no, hate that stuff, ruins the gameplay immersion value for me. I turn off streams that have those on or mute the audio to watch them.
Kilsin said:Do you use add-ons (Dps and Aggro meters, Healer helpers etc.) in other MMORPGs and if so, what do you like about them? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Twitter Poll: https://twitter.com/PantheonMMO/status/1008665715367280640
If it's a simple UI skin add-on and maybe a few other skin type helpers or very basic add-ons, fine. But I do not like, nor want, to see anything like Deadly Boss mods and such with Pantheon. I never liked those and it felt more like a game of watch the Add-ons that you pretty much are required to have to even play.
When it comes to add-ons in an MMORPG the less it affects gameplay the better.
Nay to addons. Especially DPS meters - the group I am in is supposed to be working together to defeat whatever we're fighting, and what it turns out to be is us all competing against each other trying to outdo the others. I don't think this is the type of game that wants to promote that mentality.
Rogue said:The poll responses look like they exhibit bias.
59%Yes, I use Add-ons
14%No, I don't use them11%Don't care either way16%Hate them with vengeancePoll should be:I love them with a passion
Yes, I want add-onsNo, I don't want add-onsI don't care either wayI hate them with a vengeanceUsing something is different than wanting something, it entices a Yes response.
I agree. I'm not sure what they were looking for but anybody that's raided HAD to have add-ons in some other games.... that doesn't mean we like or want them in pantheon.
Truthfully yes I use them... but no I didn't like it and don't want to see them in Pantheon.
Nay
I hope- if add-ons are available- the caveat is made or intuitively known that one, anyone, should never say "you should make sure your DPS meter is blah blah blah" as part required of strategy. I am all for nuance. I think nuance projects ability. you may use it, but you need to play as if no one uses it, and never mention it.
However- neat parsing tools are nice- maybe a raid-only feature.
I'm not a fan of addons. I have used them extensively in WoW and come to the conclusion they trivialize content. Perhaps with extreme restrictions addons could exist without trivializing content but then again is it even worth pursuing? I played EQ, VG, EvE, GW1 and GW2 without addons and did just fine. Let's be real about who the addons are for: the bleeding edge end game raiders. One of the biggest problems I saw in WoW was that certain addons were mandatory. Threat meters, dps meters, deadly boss mods, none of this stuff is necessary it is more of a convenience factor. I understand why people support addons I just think the cons outweigh the pros.
Rogue said:The poll responses look like they exhibit bias.
59%Yes, I use Add-ons
14%No, I don't use them11%Don't care either way16%Hate them with vengeancePoll should be:I love them with a passion
Yes, I want add-onsNo, I don't want add-onsI don't care either wayI hate them with a vengeanceUsing something is different than wanting something, it entices a Yes response.
Twitter only allows for 4 poll options, knowing the community as well as I do, I stuck with the ones I knew most people would want to reply with, man.
Kilsin said:Do you use add-ons (Dps and Aggro meters, Healer helpers etc.) in other MMORPGs and if so, what do you like about them? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Twitter Poll: https://twitter.com/PantheonMMO/status/1008665715367280640
In a word. No.
Nay. I can see something like a UI cosmetic change, but add ons should not be needed in a game like pantheon.
DPS meters are just plain dumb in a game like this. As a wizard in EQ. I could top DPS charts All the time. In fact, as long as the healer could keep me alive, I could do insane DPS but that is the problem.
If i Max DPS, I get agro and will likely die. DPS meters are for Epeen and nothing else.
if I do 90DPS I get agro. if I do 60DPS I'm not doing my job. What about the tank, what if HE isn't doing his job and THAT is why I get agro at 90DPS. Maybe if he knew how to do HIS job, I could do 100DPS and not get agro... see where this leads???? nowhere....
I hate addons that tell me where bosses and rare mobs are (and what loot they are carrying). addons are 100% bad news.
If an addon makes you NOT need skill, it's useless. stuff like click to heal Vuhdo or healbot. no.
I understand and agree with Rogue's sentiment. Sorry Kilsin. By default, many players will select option 1 because they have indeed used add-ons in MMO's. It's quite likely that the majority of people who chose that option also hate them with a vengeance, or at the very least don't want to see anything beyond minimal UI based configuration or basic damage parsers in Pantheon. If you put out a poll asking the community whether or not they use fast travel in MMO's the majority of them would say yes.
The four options I would have used:
I would like to see a large variety of add-ons in Pantheon.
I would like to see a limited variety of add-ons in Pantheon.
I am indifferent.
I don't want to see add-ons in Pantheon.
Add-ons change the game from the developers' design. They should be unnecessary. They can be harmless fun, but they can also become exploits. While the community in this forum is civil (mostly) and cares about the integrity of the game, one cannot say the same about the add-on community. There will be some that are harmless fun, and others that attempt to unbalance the game in favor of the user. Once add-ons are allowed, screening and limiting them will become cumbersome and time consuming for the developers. One thing I have admired in these forums is the attitude of learning from previous games. In my experience, and those of many previous posts, those experiences with add-ons are negative.
In Mr. Ed's immortal words, "Neigh."
I probably would not feel add-ons are necessary if the client is robust. Can I organize my bags the way I want to? Can I reconfigure my UI the way I want to? Does the client offer the information I desire such as rolling combat log? Yes, I love all the data in the world and I love it in my face on my UI. I want my screen cluttered with data. If the game gives me what I need then I don't feel add-ons are necessary. If the game is downright barren in terms of what the UI displays then I need add-ons. Case in point; during beta of ESO the devs sided with the folks that came from single player Skyrim and gave no thoughts to the mmo attributes that are really a norm. We ended up with a very sparce UI (not much information at all was able to be on the screen). I hated the lack of data and how I had to click 2-4 dropdown menus within dropdown menus to get anywhere.
I won't jump on any bandwagon but I do lean toward agreeing hesitantly with those statements about raids; if there are add-ons, they will become mandatory if they effectively make a person without them less efficient in any way. However, add-ons are not evil, they are just a tool. I will not fall into that camp that wants to always blame a tool (inanimate object) instead of the human being using the tool (animate object). Nor, will I ever claim a tool should not exist because a few bad apples that will misuse the tool.
An example: A raid leader is going to a place that requires everyone to be keyed. The raid is 3 days out. He has an add-on that shows that 39 of his 40 raiders are keyed. He arranges to help the one person (who didn't know about some key or other) get keyed pre-raid. That's a good use of a neutral tool. The same in a bad way: the raid leader chooses to instead disinvite the player because it is everyones own responsability to meet all the raid pre-reqs. It's just a tool, but, how it gets used is the contentious part of "add-ons".
I'm going to say Nay.
I remember raiding in Vanilla WoW and my guild couldn't understand how I could participate and raid without using them. Eventually having 'certain' add-ons became a requirement for raiding. I'm certain many guilds had/have that requirement.
I would prefer if that did not happen in Pantheon.
Big nay.
I know some people, myself included, want to theory craft or just plain know the differences in spells or gear or classes for no ulterior power gamer purpose, and we can do that outside of the game providing it.
On the negative side, people will use this to judge others, and that is, imo, very unhealthy for the game. Don't encourage DPS superiority crap as part of the game itself. Let's just play, and if someone is REALLY BAD, don't group with them anymore. You won't need a DPS meter to tell you. And if you're AAing, or whatever, and trying to wring every last bit of effciency out of your group, well hopefully you're having a blast playing with friends where an extra 5% an hour doesn't matter. If it does, then go ahead and base who you group with on the logging that you've done and be "that guy".
And we don't really even have to touch on things like "healer helper" or aggro meters, do we?