Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Add-ons - Yay or Nay

    • 159 posts
    June 19, 2018 12:55 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Do you use add-ons (Dps and Aggro meters, Healer helpers etc.) in other MMORPGs and if so, what do you like about them? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    Twitter Poll: https://twitter.com/PantheonMMO/status/1008665715367280640

    I did use add-ons heavily in other games. That said, I had a love/hate relationship with them. Let me give you the example of the game I was most involved with, ESO.

    At launch I didn't use any add-ons at all. The issue was discussed in the game's forums and my stance was that add-ons shouldn't be necessary because in most cases they either covered for some shortcoming of the official UI and incentivized the developer waiting for the community to fix them rather than put in the work themselves, or they granted an undue advantage to the user. This went on for maybe six months after the game launched.

    In the mean time some of the mentioned UI shortcomings started to become painfully apparent. For instance, you might be able to carry a few hundred items in your inventory, but they would always display as an unsorted mess in a list. Finding something, especially if you were unsure of the item's name or icon, was an aggravating and unnecessary chore. Similarly, finding something at player-owned stores was an uphill battle, as you not only needed to go to the store, but you had to navigate its entire contents with hardly any way to filter the content and no way at all to search for an item by name.

    Also, while you could open a menu to check your combat skills and progress in them, there was no way to check your crafting skills - which styles, pieces of equipment or traits (bonus modifiers) you could craft - without actually going to a crafting station. This became messy due to game systems that for instance required you to "study" a piece of equipment in order to learn how to craft it or its trait, added to the fact that the time to study a given trait would increase exponentially up to something like a month for the last trait in a given piece of gear. There were so many combinations that it was a pain to know whether you should save something to study or not, yet the developer never bothered adding a crafting skills overview.

    Another issue was that you could only have six skills on your main bar and another six on your back bar. If you wanted to switch some skills around in order to adapt to specific situations, like for instance single-target versus AoE combat, let alone switch between differently-statted gear, you had to do everything manually. This meant losing a lot of time searching for every piece of equipment to switch and going through all the combat skills looking for the right ones to put in the right place on your bars.

    Yet all the issues above were easily solved by add-ons, meaning the means to do it were there all along, and accessible to players through the game's APIs, but the developer didn't have to do the work themselves. At some point I gave up bitching and moaning about the UI needing improvement and started installing these add-ons. Obviously, after I had installed the ones that fixed actual problems I saw in the game, I started experimenting with "convenience" add-ons: DPS meters, buff timers, player store filters, add-ons that went through the entire inventory of every player store you visited and spat out average prices and even trends... In essence, add-ons became tremendously powerful, the official APIs gave add-on developers access to huge parts of the game, playing without them felt like you were gimping yourself, and the developer could basically ignore any UI-related issues because they knew someone would step in.

    After this wall of text, I'd like to say I hope Pantheon has a pretty limited set of player-accessible APIs, if any, and that add-ons will not be a thing. I hope VR will keep improving the game even after launch, listening to the community and evaluating whether things are missing from the UI that should be added, rather than offload that work to the community.

    • 55 posts
    June 19, 2018 1:21 AM PDT

    Yes I use add-ons and Yes you should have some in the game, but limited. 

    I don't want to see any add-ons that play the game for you by telling you when to do anything.

     

    Add-ons that should be in Pantheon, DPS meter, threat meter and Healing meter.

     add-ons to help you configure UI to move/re-size things on your screen as well, if that's not already built into the game.

     

    Add-ons that should not be in the game, things like DBM and that ilk. (That tell you what to do and when to do it.)

     

    I see a lot of people in here hating on DPS meter, and it really does not make much sense to me, it's just a tool that gives info so you can make better decisions.

    Hating DPS meter is like hating scales in real life, the DPS meter didn't make you have bad DPS, just like the scales didn't make you fat. Don't hate the tool or the info, use the tool and info to better yourself.

    I would like to see a guild event calendar built into the game to help guild leaders/ raid leaders coordinate with guild members so that they can more easily get together and do fun stuff, like raid a boss, or have a player wedding. Also, help organize mentor groups so that vets can help other members be the best that they can be.

     

    Tal

     


    This post was edited by Talonguard at June 19, 2018 1:23 AM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    June 19, 2018 2:17 AM PDT

    Wow has also many add ons that highlighted things you didn't have to know (PVP ennemy cooldowns, buffs and such), or to silently communicate throught hidden chat channels for data transmission.

     

    While it was great for Roleplay add-ons that would send character sheets to each others, that also lead to automated add-ons for instant grouping, non official matchmaking. Some add-ons on teso, having no access to channels, use a data connection with a centralized server to list wares and allow for automated trades throught the ingame mail system, making it an unofficial global auction house.

     

    The slope is slippy, surely.

    • 159 posts
    June 19, 2018 2:24 AM PDT

    Talonguard said:

    I see a lot of people in here hating on DPS meter, and it really does not make much sense to me, it's just a tool that gives info so you can make better decisions.

    Hating DPS meter is like hating scales in real life, the DPS meter didn't make you have bad DPS, just like the scales didn't make you fat. Don't hate the tool or the info, use the tool and info to better yourself.

    I don't think it's the meter, rather it's what it enables. The min/maxing mindset, the constant balancing of classes because one outdoes all others in raw damage - or the shunning of certain classes because they lag behind. You can say that it's the developer's job to balance all classes so that they are all appealing to someone. But given the possible combinations of gear, skills, training, bonuses, etc., it's unrealistic to assume that classes will ever be perfectly balanced. In this situation, not giving you precise numbers can keep the inevitable drama down.

    Mind you, I'm not against optimizing your gameplay and trying to be as good as you can possibly be. But sometimes it's good not to have everything spelled out for you. You'll know if your DPS is decent, knowing that you did exactly x while someone else did y can actually be detrimental to the game as a whole.

    • 67 posts
    June 19, 2018 3:24 AM PDT

    I don't mind a DPS Parser. But no to Add-ons and yes to UI-Mods.

    • 643 posts
    June 19, 2018 4:15 AM PDT

    Talonguard said:...I see a lot of people in here hating on DPS meter, and it really does not make much sense to me, it's just a tool that gives info so you can make better decisions....

    This is the fundamental difference and everything that Pantheon is about.  It let's you make better twitch-based video game decisions.

    A DPS meter is a tool that lets you operate a video game better.  The problem is that it separates the player from the character and impedes immersion.  The human behind the character is focusing on the controls of the video game, not living, immersed, in the virtual world.

    A DPS meter is great for a COD-type video game but not for a virtual reality world.

    I think the pro add-on folks are generally the folks passionate about playing video games and the anti add-on folks are those who are passionate about a virtual reality life.

     


    This post was edited by fazool at June 19, 2018 8:24 AM PDT
    • 411 posts
    June 19, 2018 6:31 AM PDT

    fazool said:This is the fundamental difference and everything that Pantheon is about.  It let's you make better twitch-based video game decisions.

    A DPS meter is a tool that lets you operate a video game better.  The problem is that it separates the player from the character and impedes immersion.  The human behid the character is focusing on the controls of the video game, not living, immersed, in the virtual world.

    A DPS meter is great for a COD-type video game but not for a virtual reality world.

    I think the pro add-on folks are generally ths folks passionate about playing video games and the anti add-on folks are those who are passionate about a virtual reality life.

    I actually completely agree that dps and threat meters are immersion breaking. If you really want to go for the immersion argument though, then why not go the whole way and say that providing the player with numbers at all is immersion breaking. If I fight a goblin with 100hp and I see in my combat log "you hit the goblin for 10 damage" and repeat that 10 times, then the goblin dies, isn't that immersion breaking? Why would a complex living world follow such raw, predictable numbers? And more to the point, why do our characters perceive the world in numbers?

    I would love to play a game where numbers were obscured, had significant error, or were not provided to the player. There are even lots of half-measures that could be employed like only obscuring/altering others' damage/healing in the combat log. You could accurately track your own dps, but not another person's.

    • 612 posts
    June 19, 2018 6:39 AM PDT

    fazool said: This is the fundamental difference and everything that Pantheon is about.  It let's you make better twitch-based video game decisions.

    A DPS meter is a tool that lets you operate a video game better.  The problem is that it separates the player from the character and impedes immersion.  The human behid the character is focusing on the controls of the video game, not living, immersed, in the virtual world.

    A DPS meter is great for a COD-type video game but not for a virtual reality world.

    I think the pro add-on folks are generally ths folks passionate about playing video games and the anti add-on folks are those who are passionate about a virtual reality life.

    I think that this actually is a very interesting point here.

    I think that many people here have totally different viewpoints about what Pantheon actually is. Is it a Video game? or is it a Virtual World? Do you play MMO's because you want to be immersed in a virtual world, or do you play so you can hack and slash some monsters? And I'm not talking about Roleplay here. That can be found in both. I'm just talking about Virtual world vs Kill some Creatures type of game.

    To give people some perspective... EQ1 and Vanguard were both "Kill some Creatures" types of games. The advertisements may have thrown around that "Virtual World" title, but they were not in any way virtual world type games. They had a 3d world you played in, but it was all about killing the monsters. Even the non-killing monsters aspects of the game such as crafting and such were just a complement to helping you kill monsters. Sure there are a few cosmetic stuff you craft, but mainly you are crafting tools to help you kill monsters better (weapons or armor or potions, etc...)

    Virtual world games were things like The Sims or Second Life. Minecraft (which does have some killing of monsters) is also more of a Viritual World type of game.

    So that brings us to Fazool's point:

    People who want a viritual world may not want addons because they just want to be part of a world and the UI is just something that gets in the way.

    People who just like to kill some monsters may like addons because the UI helps them manage killing the monsters.

    So the question is... what kind of game are you expecting from Pantheon? and what kind of game is VR expecting to make with Pantheon?

    • 411 posts
    June 19, 2018 8:00 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:People who want a viritual world may not want addons because they just want to be part of a world and the UI is just something that gets in the way.

    People who just like to kill some monsters may like addons because the UI helps them manage killing the monsters.

    So the question is... what kind of game are you expecting from Pantheon? and what kind of game is VR expecting to make with Pantheon?

    I agree with what you've said, but I think the point you made is relative in a sense, which makes me want to explore the concept more deeply. Pantheon is X kind of world and regardless of what X is, addons let the "monster killers" do their monster killing job a little bit better. Pantheon is X kind of world and regardless of what X is, addons make X seem like more of a first to the top, competitive, and unimmersive monster killing game. However, I don't think Pantheon has to be either a virtual world OR a competitive monster killing game. I think it can be both.

    Generally the competitive monster killers are fine competing and working for success in whatever world is provided to them. If you take away their tools, they will attempt to replace them. If you take away their information, they will seek out other ways to inform themselves and create useful data sets. In order to satisfy them you just need to have depth of combat and progression, while avoiding arbitrary restrictions. Providing players with numbers and then saying "Oh, no, don't count those! That's playing the game wrong! We just wanted to give you the numbers for... umm... no reason whatsoever" is absolutely arbitrary and downright confusing to me.

    The virtual worlders want an immersive world in which they can dive into. If you're constantly being bombarded by the suggestion that you should be competitively killing monsters (dps meters do this), then that runs entirely counter to their immersion.

    If you want to satisfy the virtual worlders, then provide a game that restricts how in-your-face the monster killing competition is. If you want to please the monster killers, then make those restrictions sensible instead of arbitrary.


    This post was edited by Ainadak at June 19, 2018 8:03 AM PDT
    • 81 posts
    June 19, 2018 8:21 AM PDT

    Some really interesting posts here. I can definately see why someone would want to use a DPS meter. I used them myself in several games. I still maintain though that addons in every form impact on social interaction. Take the DPS meter addon itself, you could argue:

    • People posting DPS scores into chat incites elitism and negativity.
    • It measures players based on dps and not on their ability to play well in groups, react to challenges, play as a team, to motivate others etc or even to lead.
    • It provides an unfair advantage to those who don't have it.
    • It encourages some to exclude people from groups beacuse their gear isn't quite as good as others would hope.
    • It takes something away from immersion, and leads the game closer towards a race to the top, whatever the top is.

    For other Addons the list would be different, but they all, in some way, negatively impact on social ineteraction. When I started reading the Panthoen website, reviews and this forum I understood, rightly or wrongly, this game was going to encourage and reward group based social interaction. I believe Addons to be counter intuative to this aim.

    Blood.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Bloodfire at June 19, 2018 8:26 AM PDT
    • 793 posts
    June 19, 2018 8:40 AM PDT

    The only DPS I care about is what my current weapon DPS is, compared to something I just looted, add in the other weapon stats and that is how I decide if I'm going to swap out my current weapon for the new one. :)

     

    Other than that, I don't care, I'm playing to enjoy myself, not be #1 on some imaginary list of awesomeness.

    • 21 posts
    June 19, 2018 9:10 AM PDT

    Talonguard said:

     

    Hating DPS meter is like hating scales in real life, the DPS meter didn't make you have bad DPS, just like the scales didn't make you fat. Don't hate the tool or the info, use the tool and info to better yourself.

     

     

     This isn't my argument, nor do I believe it is the argument of other people against DPS meters. Yes, the DPS meter is a tool, however it is closer to a game designers tool than a players tool as it lets you see information in a context that is not presented to the player by the default client. DPS/Heal/Threat meters are tools that allow players to get a peek at the man behind the curtain. It undermines or even out destroys the carefully crafted illusion of the game world for the sake of player effeciency.

    The more of the internal workings of the game systems that Visionary Realms are able to secure away from the players, the greater sense of mystery, wonder and adventure players will be able to experience. That includes eliminating DPS/Heal/Threat meters.

    • 25 posts
    June 19, 2018 9:27 AM PDT

    Interesting that the Twitter poll shows 59% yes but what seems like the overwhelming response here in the forums is a resounding "NO" or a "yes, but limited"

    My personal take is No, I don't like them and never used them.  Never liked the feeling that I might not be as effective if I didn't use certain add-ons.  But then again I don't like telling people they can't do something that is legal and can help make them a better player...  I agree with @oneADseven that it takes away some of the challenge of the game, putting it on easy mode, but just my opinions and we all know about opinions, :) 

    • 49 posts
    June 19, 2018 9:30 AM PDT

    I've already voiced my opinion on add-ons in general on the second page. When it comes to min/maxing and things like the DPS meter, I'm kind of on the fence. In one aspect it does create another layer of skill and thought in being able to maximize damage output. However, on that same coin, it negates a perceivable aspect of skill in intuitively generating maximum damage output. My thoughts on DPS meters has nothing to do with immersion, and everything to do with hand-holding. DPS meters let a portion of the playerbase obtain a level of play not achievable on their own merit.

    • 159 posts
    June 19, 2018 9:52 AM PDT

    fazool said:

    I think the pro add-on folks are generally the folks passionate about playing video games and the anti add-on folks are those who are passionate about a virtual reality life.

    I can only speak for myself. I prefer no add-ons, for reasons I stated earlier. I don't consider myself a role player in the sense that I don't blur the line between myself as a player and my characters in the game world. It's not about immersion, it's about the effects on the game's mechanics and the game's community.

    TripleD said:

    Interesting that the Twitter poll shows 59% yes but what seems like the overwhelming response here in the forums is a resounding "NO" or a "yes, but limited"

    The question was actually something like "Do you use add-ons". It's not incompatible to use add-ons in other games and prefer not to have them in Pantheon. As I said above, I used them heavily in other games to better overcome failings in the game UI. I wasn't happy that I had to use add-ons, I wasn't happy that some add-ons would be abandoned from time to time and force me to look for alternatives, I wasn't happy with the effects some of the add-ons had in the game... So in the end I would very much prefer that Pantheon have no add-ons at all and any potential improvements to the UI be discussed within the community and ultimately implemented by VR if they choose to.

    • 191 posts
    June 19, 2018 10:23 AM PDT

    I'd like to suggest not thinking of it in terms of of add-ons or no add-ons.  Instead, ask yourself: what information do I want to make available to the player and how?

    For example, if you give your players quantitative damage information (i.e. numbers), then you've already trained them to think of damage quantitatively and effectively given them a DPS meter because they have access to everything they need - numbers and time.  If you don't want them to quantify damage, then present damage qualitatively.

    I guess I'm saying: control information, not how people use it.  You'll lose that battle every time.

    • 769 posts
    June 19, 2018 10:26 AM PDT

    Nevron said:

    When it comes to min/maxing and things like the DPS meter, I'm kind of on the fence. In one aspect it does create another layer of skill.

    This cried out to me. 

    My question is, how exactly is that skill? In EQ, skill was knowing the timers on your buffs and mezzes so well through constant repetitive use that you could keep them up or keep mobs on lockdown without a single break. Skill was knowing, through trial and error, which mobs can be single pulled and how they'll path to you. Skill was never failing to spin the mob while tanking, being able to cycle through all of your utility even while performing your major group function, and being so used to the patterns of your hits that you can tell when you're doing more damage. 

    But a DPS meter? That's just something telling you what to do. 

    To take the metaphor someone used earlier about a scale. If I'm trying to lose weight, stepping on the scale isn't part of the process of losing weight. It didn't help me to lose weight. What helped me was portion control, caloric intake, exercise. Things that took effort and dedication. The scale just told me what I needed to do. Lose more weight, or stop. 

    There isn't skill in reading a chart. Skill is in being so familiar with the issue that a chart isn't needed. 

    Nevron said:

    My thoughts on DPS meters has nothing to do with immersion, and everything to do with hand-holding. DPS meters let a portion of the playerbase obtain a level of play not achievable on their own merit.

    Agreed, and is that not exactly what we're looking to avoid in Pantheon? Hand holding and being able to achieve milestones not on your own merit? 

     


    This post was edited by Tralyan at June 19, 2018 10:28 AM PDT
    • 49 posts
    June 19, 2018 10:36 AM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    This cried out to me. 

    My question is, how exactly is that skill? In EQ, skill was knowing the timers on your buffs and mezzes so well through constant repetitive use that you could keep them up or keep mobs on lockdown without a single break. Skill was knowing, through trial and error, which mobs can be single pulled and how they'll path to you. Skill was never failing to spin the mob while tanking, being able to cycle through all of your utility even while performing your major group function, and being so used to the patterns of your hits that you can tell when you're doing more damage. 

    But a DPS meter? That's just something telling you what to do. 

    To take the metaphor someone used earlier about a scale. If I'm trying to lose weight, stepping on the scale isn't part of the process of losing weight. It didn't help me to lose weight. What helped me was portion control, caloric intake, exercise. Things that took effort and dedication. The scale just told me what I needed to do. Lose more weight, or stop. 

    There isn't skill in reading a chart. Skill is in being so familiar with the issue that a chart isn't needed. 

     

    Maybe "skill" is the wrong word to use, but it is another layer, as in you still have to figure out how to maximize your damage. The rest of my post that you left off essentially mirrors what you are saying.

    Also, being familiar enough with an issue where a chart isn't necessary is not exactly a skill, it's experience. You don't need skill to have experience. The two definitely impact each other, though.

    Like I said, you basically agree with my overall premise, you just got hung up on the semantics of a word I probably could have replaced.

    Edit: You edited while I was typing a reply. I think we're on the same page here.


    This post was edited by Nevron at June 19, 2018 10:38 AM PDT
    • 49 posts
    June 19, 2018 10:59 AM PDT
    I have no problem with addons of any type
    • 99 posts
    June 19, 2018 11:22 AM PDT
    Nay i like to see the game not the numbers game. To much stuff clutters the scenery.
    • 3237 posts
    June 19, 2018 11:53 AM PDT

    Add-ons are a slippery slope, I think most people would agree with that.  It always starts off simple and before you know it, players have access to various "tools" that directly affect not only their experience, but also the players they associate with and eventually the community at large.  EQ2 had a combat system where you always wanted to maximize your "auto attack" damage and the various "combat arts" had a cast time.  WoW did the same.  So if your auto attack was .3 seconds away from going off and you use an ability or combat art that has a 1 second cast time, you're losing .7 seconds from your auto-attack "up-time."  Mastering the "up-time" was considered a skill.  You learn your class, the timers, and combat animations.  Eventually there was a tool added that showed you a timer for how close you were to your next auto-attack and when utilized you totally lose your own personal sense of timing and coordination to keep an eye on contrived triggers.

    Before you know it, players are trained to play around a little visual indicator that tells them when they should attack.  Now everybody who uses that program is squeezing out extra damage and the game needs to be programmed around that which puts everybody else at a disadvantage.  Keep add-ons as far away as possible from this game, please.  They will only lead to players milking them for maximum efficiency and artificially raising the "performance" floor/ceiling by leveraging 3'rd party tools/programs.  Nobody wants to play a game on rails and when combat is ultimately "buffed" to compensate for those who do, it really messes everything up for those who want a more authentic experience.  We should all be playing the game the way it was intended to be played.  If VR wants to give us a visual indicator that tells us when we should attack then it should be hard-coded into the game with an on/off toggle.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 19, 2018 12:04 PM PDT
    • 209 posts
    June 19, 2018 12:09 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Add-ons are a slippery slope, I think most people would agree with that.  It always starts off simple and before you know it, players have access to various "tools" that directly affect not only their experience, but also the players they associate with and eventually the community at large.  EQ2 had a combat system where you always wanted to maximize your "auto attack" damage and the various "combat arts" had a cast time.  WoW did the same.  So if your auto attack was .3 seconds away from going off and you use an ability or combat art that has a 1 second cast time, you're losing .7 seconds from your auto-attack "up-time."  Mastering the "up-time" was considered a skill.  You learn your class, the timers, and combat animations.  Eventually there was a tool added that showed you a timer for how close you were to your next auto-attack and when utilized you totally lose your own personal sense of timing and coordination to keep an eye on contrived triggers.

    Before you know it, players are trained to play around a little visual indicator that tells them when they should attack.  Now everybody who uses that program is squeezing out extra damage and the game needs to be programmed around that which puts everybody else at a disadvantage.  Keep add-ons as far away as possible from this game, please.  They will only lead to players milking them for maximum efficiency and artificially raising the "performance" floor/ceiling by leveraging 3'rd party tools/programs.  Nobody wants to play a game on rails and when combat is ultimately "buffed" to compensate for those who do, it really messes everything up for those who want a more authentic experience.  We should all be playing the game the way it was intended to be played.  If VR wants to give us a visual indicator that tells us when we should attack then it should be hard-coded into the game with an on/off toggle.

    Wow. Yeah, I totally agree, and I think this pretty eloquently illustrates the case against add-ons for many of us. This is precisely why I think add-ons suck the life and the fun out of any game meant to draw the player into an immersive fantasy world.

    • 151 posts
    June 19, 2018 12:14 PM PDT
    URBAN Dictionary: Judgemental
    1.)A way of making ones self feel better, by hurting others. Usually caused by closed mindedness, and a lack of manners.

    2.)Feeling the right to judge, and doing so.
    Being judgemental will show people how tactless you truely are.
    • 1120 posts
    June 19, 2018 12:22 PM PDT

    I think the fear of people being called out for not dpsing to their classes max potential and being called out on raids is valid.   That's how people learn to get better.  If you're hitting 50dps every fight and nothing goes wrong you might think you're doing great... until you see the identical geared wizard hitting 70 dps... competition breeds improvement.  

    As far as classes being prioritized over others this will most likely be true for an extremely small number of guilds on each server that want to push endgame.  And even then  depending on how many players are in raids and the utility each class brings... you'll see the gap bridged.  I dont think most of the players in this game will ever experience being declined from a guild because of their class. 

    Again  I think these fears stem alot from WoW which is fundamentally a different game.  100% of the player base can raid.  That's just not the case in eq.  

    • 945 posts
    June 19, 2018 1:00 PM PDT

    I'm not a fan of 3rd party add-ons personally.  I am however in favor of complex macro systems (so long as they don't automate gameplay) as well as the ability to make extensive adjustments to user interface to include transparency and even having different templates like a general (square, color adjustable boxes), class specific (like it sounds will be the case) and the ability to save loadouts to be shared on other characters.

    Now if the devs allowed for requested features to be implimented, I think that would be amazing; but 3rd party add-ons can get janky.  If not strictly reigned in, they could circumvent game mechanics that are in place for specific reasons, like I'm sure there would be a 3rd party map addon created by someone...

    Although I hate addons, some games forced me to use them because they became the standard in the game's community and you were at quite a disadvantage if you did not have them.  One in particular was an addon that gave enemies HP bars in a game that you had to target the enemies to view the HP bars, which was very difficult when trying to tank 10-12 NPCs but needed to maintain your target and wanted to determine if you were losing threat on one because a DPS is bursting the wrong target.  The other addon I was forced to use was damage meters, which when playing a DPS role ended up being a game of staring at a little box and competing with other players instead of focusing/enjoying the game or even socializing.

    This is of course a personal opinion :)