I used DPS parsing extensively in Vanguard. It was not an in-game meter per se. But I could watch it close to real time on a 2nd screen.
It helped alot allowing me to learn the class and more efficient use of attacks.
It also help in ways you might not think.
One patch made on test the devs either removed Epic attacks, or misplaced a decimal. My parsing told me no more Epic hits were occurring. I passed it on to GMs. here is the result of that.
Mod Edit: Removed image as per guidelines, please only post images if requested by a VR member.
I'm not going to have a DPS meter on my machine, instead I plan to offer 'rapid math tutoring' to math students, make them sit beside me while I play, have them add up all the damage I'm doing and provide me with verbal ques on what my DPS is... This way I can get paid to play and offer a valid, beneficial service to today's youth.
:)
Xxar said:That is a opinion , a dps parser has nothing to do with emersion. If you simply do not want to use one , do not use one.
It is simply a calculator that does the work , that I can do with a basic combat log for me faster.
A dps parser does not tell you when to do things , that is silly to even say. I think you are talking about some other type of addon ?
Also a dps parse is in a sense "pass tense" in the consideration that the combat action has already happend for it to be registered on the parse .
So once again , how does using a already in game mechanic Ie combat log , turn into a arcade video game approach ? Eq1 has a combat parser , combat meters and has since Kunark.
Quoting on these forums is a mess. I am trying to clean it up a bit forgive me if this goes horribly wrong.
There are modern DPS meters and other addons that help players with their 'rotation', telling them when to press what abilities so they play their characters 'right'. It's really the next logical step in dps meters.
In a MMORPG there are very few design decisions that do not affect the player base as a whole. Parsing and meters make the game purely about finding the absolute most effecient way to kill something, data is king. Parsing and dps meters allow players to deconstruct the systems of the game and alter their playstyle to work best within those systems for maximum effect. Players also tend to create data sets from parses which are used to lobby the designers in favor of an agenda i.e. buff x, nerf y, because my spreadsheet says so.
DPS parsing/meter bieng a part of the game will affect every player in the game regardless if they choose to use it or not. DPS parses and meters drastically shorten the learning curve for damage classes and abilities, developers then work off the assumption that players have attained that mastery in their design of content. DPS parses and meters also encourage the community to find the 'right', but really just most effecient and streamlined way to play a dps class or set of abilities. This removes all room for perosnal taste, personal opinion and role play in how people choose to play their characters. It boils everything down to a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way to play the game.
While I can understand the desire to know just exactly how much damage you are doing and how that compares to others I think the effect it has on the game and the culture of the playerbase far outwieghs those benefits. Players are always aiming to find the most effecient, effective way to complete a game (nothing wrong with that, it's what makes the game fun), the paradox of that however is that when they do, the game is at great risk of becoming unenjoyable to the player, as they have mastered it and unless new challenges can be found quickly that allow the player to excercise that mastery, and learn new skills, the game will likely be abandoned.
In short DPS meters contribute to player boredom by greatly reducing the amount of time it takes to master abilities. They also encourage cookie cutter builds, which also increase player boredom/burnout as player choice is dimished in favor of data driven consensus. And of course they encourage data driven nerf/buff campaigns by the playerbase, which can be very damaging to a community.
Here's a funny analogy: Addons do to a game what technology has done to our memories. There was a time when people actually memorized phone numbers and information that they read... in an actual book. Now its much easier to look something up instead of memorize it. Some schools are even getting rid of analog clocks because children don't know how to read them and are getting "stressed out". Adding more apps, widgets, and gadgets designed to make the game easier will remove the learning factor and likely be counterintuitive to the "old school" learning process that a lot of us are looking forward to in this game. Some may say that they don't need to learn math because they have a calculator on their phone but math is also about learning problem solving skills and logical thought processes that help in many other aspects of life. I'm not trying to say that not using addons will help improve aspects of your life but I think you get it. Being able to know how long 60 seconds is (almost an exact second) without even trying was something I passively learned from having to time spells or know exactly when my 20 sec cooldown was going to be up without having to stare at a flashing button. Not using addons will help people become immersed and become more skilled players (or not) in my opinion.
Lyyr said:...DPS meters contribute to player boredom...encourage cookie cutter builds...And...encourage data driven nerf/buff campaigns...
I assert that meters are a symptom, not the root cause. The root cause is presenting players with a quantitative core gameplay loop that includes positive reinforcement for making numbers bigger. Any loop that motivates players that way eventually perverts the motivation to play and results in "min/maxing" and all the other destructive behaviours that you and others have described.
Unfortunately, designing these loops has become synonymous with "good game design," and people have been trained to expect it. It's so bad that people don't even know how to play (in the traditional sense of engaging in activity for enjoyment and recreation) anymore because they're constantly looking for the crank to turn so the game will dispense some of that sweet, sweet dopamine. Ding.
zewtastic said:... One patch made on test the devs either removed Epic attacks, or misplaced a decimal. My parsing told me no more Epic hits were occurring. I passed it on to GMs. here is the result of that.
Yep, in every game I've played, I've written my own parsers to validate spell / ability damage. In EVERY game, I've found bugs that the parser highlighted, passed them on, and they were fixed. Designers are human, they make mistakes. Parsing the log allows players to find those mistakes and get them fixed.
Lyyr said:Quoting on these forums is a mess. I am trying to clean it up a bit forgive me if this goes horribly wrong.
There are modern DPS meters and other addons that help players with their 'rotation', telling them when to press what abilities so they play their characters 'right'. It's really the next logical step in dps meters.
* This is not a parser then , you are trying to make a parser into a different addon.There entirely two different things period , a parser is a calculator. I am not talking about a program that does anything you are speaking about. *
In a MMORPG there are very few design decisions that do not affect the player base as a whole. Parsing and meters make the game purely about finding the absolute most effecient way to kill something, data is king. Parsing and dps meters allow players to deconstruct the systems of the game and alter their playstyle to work best within those systems for maximum effect. Players also tend to create data sets from parses which are used to lobby the designers in favor of an agenda i.e. buff x, nerf y, because my spreadsheet says so.
* Without the data , we are unable to "prove" broken content and or abilitys. There is nothing wrong with players that want to min/max , perfect there characters. Just because you are not interested in that type of game play , does not mean it is not a valid way to play the game.
DPS parsing/meter bieng a part of the game will affect every player in the game regardless if they choose to use it or not. DPS parses and meters drastically shorten the learning curve for damage classes and abilities, developers then work off the assumption that players have attained that mastery in their design of content. DPS parses and meters also encourage the community to find the 'right', but really just most effecient and streamlined way to play a dps class or set of abilities. This removes all room for perosnal taste, personal opinion and role play in how people choose to play their characters. It boils everything down to a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way to play the game.
* Those issues are core game design problems , if there is a right way or a wrong way to play the game. That has nothing to do with parse data , but has to do with basic class balance and design.
While I can understand the desire to know just exactly how much damage you are doing and how that compares to others I think the effect it has on the game and the culture of the playerbase far outwieghs those benefits. Players are always aiming to find the most effecient, effective way to complete a game (nothing wrong with that, it's what makes the game fun), the paradox of that however is that when they do, the game is at great risk of becoming unenjoyable to the player, as they have mastered it and unless new challenges can be found quickly that allow the player to excercise that mastery, and learn new skills, the game will likely be abandoned.
* That is personal opinion , you are trying to dictate what is enjoyable for another person. This once again has nothing to do with parse data , if I get bored of the game. I will quit with or without parse data , this boils down to game design and providing value and entertainment to be worth my sub.
In short DPS meters contribute to player boredom by greatly reducing the amount of time it takes to master abilities. They also encourage cookie cutter builds, which also increase player boredom/burnout as player choice is dimished in favor of data driven consensus. And of course they encourage data driven nerf/buff campaigns by the playerbase, which can be very damaging to a community.
* This again is personal opinion , just because you become bored does not mean everyone does. Also if the data provided can prove , there is broken content and or abilitys that is not damaging to the the community. It is simply allowing us to prove something is either unbalanced or broken period , what the game designers do with that information is entirely up to them.
This post was edited by Xxar at June 22, 2018 3:41 AM PDT
Hi,
a big YES to addons. But i prefer more UI changing addons like 3d portraits or round buttons etc. Combat log parsing addons like damage meters or aggro estimating addons are also OK for me. But it is better when things like aggro meters are already ingame. But i don't like addons which intefere into the game play like mana saving addons for healers. Those addons abort healing spells when the healing target has full hitpoints etc.
Greetings
vjek said:I've written my own parsers to validate spell / ability damage. In EVERY game, I've found bugs that the parser highlighted, passed them on, and they were fixed. Designers are human, they make mistakes. Parsing the log allows players to find those mistakes and get them fixed.
I hope you as well as other continue to do so as it will only benefit the community. Combat logs allow players to gather numerical data which can be validated. When players start to complain that their class is underpowered which we all know is going to occur, I'd prefer the community have access to quantitative data. This will allow us to see if their class really has an issue or more likely that they haven't mastered their class, are merely under geared or don't comprehend their class's intended role. Numerical data which can be verified provides the community with have fact-based reliable sources in addition to uncorroborated opinion.
Bloodfire said:When Addons and mods first arrived in EQ1 there was a great deal of enthusiasm surrounding their use. DPS meters, maps, UI tools etc were really popular. However it wasn't long before addons were developed which could tell you the loot each raid boss was carrying. These were quickly exploited by large high end guilds resulting in some bans.
Having experienced some of this I feel the raw EQ build, no maps, no target helpers etc is the best way forward. It isn't the easiest way, but the challenge forced group work. I believe this is the ethos of Pantheon and welcome a return to a game where addons are prohibited.
Blood
OK thats not what Kilsin is referring too, your referring to a cheat engine that was developed behind the scenes. DPS meters are read from the log files only to parse the info needed for guilds. Please try not to confuse the two. Some really decent devs created those parsing tools for the use of only reading into info and whatever break down you wanted.
There was no way to read what mobs had on them from a simple dps tool parsed from the orginal EQ engine to the client.
I hope that clears it up without going into too much details as google is your best source to understand the difference.
Lyyr said:In short DPS meters contribute to player boredom by greatly reducing the amount of time it takes to master abilities. They also encourage cookie cutter builds, which also increase player boredom/burnout as player choice is dimished in favor of data driven consensus. And of course they encourage data driven nerf/buff campaigns by the playerbase, which can be very damaging to a community.
Lets not dewl into this too deep as we do not know why nerfs are always done. Ill tell you from a dev mouth the reason why some of the mage nerfs where done.... exploiting with AE PB being a fast to cast spell that cost little to no mana. Allowing zones to crash when you pulled too many mobs. The nerfs also hit pets, due to the mitigation being maxxed out and they needed to downscale the pet but upscale other things. Which instead of just having a merc, you now needed to heal your pet more... It effected all of us through all classes. The dps has to be on par, they do not need external parses to the client to tell us what needs to be adjusted or not.
It boils doing to 1 thing only and that is a Dev will nerf if they simply screw up... short term game ? np at all, long term game like EQ... total mess eventually capping all stats making it hard to determine what or why they needed to nerf.
This has nothing to do with external client data such as DPS, Healing, or whatever parses. The devs parse all the time, and chart what they know works and if they fell into thier own guidelines.
Example Kilsin 1000 backstab.... Needs a nerf...
I get where you are going with this, and i fully understand what you mean. I do, i get it... we as players start demanding nerfs to specific classes and the devs dig into this deeper. Well that is something we will not be able to control. The devs do what the devs do best... Good for one bad for another.. Its the nature of the game, but we can not really for sure agree that dps meters and healing meters cause nerfs for sure... Not enough proof or data on this, it is merly speculation at this point.
I would have to ask a dev themselves do you really listen to our gibberish on forums about this dps and that dps because we can read it?? or do you do your own parses within the tool guidelines and see what needs adjustments.
Some video commentary featuring the originator of this thread, the man with the sweet sweet voice, Kilsin himself, can be viewed at the following link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EyoahxPeT8
UI and addons are discussed at approximately: 1:04:40
Louden said:Some video commentary featuring the originator of this thread, the man with the sweet sweet voice, Kilsin himself, can be viewed at the following link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EyoahxPeT8
UI and addons are discussed at approximately: 1:04:40
Awsome find, well that settles that then:) UI manipulation, skins and dps meters are in, add ons that tell you what to do out.
Blood
Bloodfire said:Louden said:Some video commentary featuring the originator of this thread, the man with the sweet sweet voice, Kilsin himself, can be viewed at the following link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EyoahxPeT8
UI and addons are discussed at approximately: 1:04:40
Awsome find, well that settles that then:) UI manipulation, skins and dps meters are in, add ons that tell you what to do out.
Blood
"dps meters are in"? That's not how I heard it.
From the video: -
Q: (Brahn) "Is that going to be available in the future: the ability to manipulate the UI on the screen?"
A: (Kilsin) "Yes... changing the UI around and resizing and stuff is definitely a plan for us. Reskinning it as well?... absolutely. The only thing we're not sure on yet and we're pretty kind of against is like add-ons that'll do something for you: so you know, aggro meters, DPS meters, things like that.
Obviously people still can parse combat logs outside externally, which is something we can't really control, we'll dumb-down the client as much as we can to limit the available information, but no matter what some guilds and raiders like that information...
We don't want to allow any kinds of add-ons at the moment that give you a hand. We don't want something telling you to move..."
Sounds to me like they really don't want DPS meters and are going to try and restrict them as much as possible and they don't want to open the game to modder add-ons at all.
Parsing those (dumbed down) logs they can't stop, but in-game, real-time DPS meter add-ons? Nope.
disposalist said:Bloodfire said:Louden said:Some video commentary featuring the originator of this thread, the man with the sweet sweet voice, Kilsin himself, can be viewed at the following link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EyoahxPeT8
UI and addons are discussed at approximately: 1:04:40
Awsome find, well that settles that then:) UI manipulation, skins and dps meters are in, add ons that tell you what to do out.
Blood
I suppose I could have expanded a bit, sorry for that. When I said DPS meters are in, I meant there was an aknowledgement they couldn't be stopped and would therefor make it into the game.
Blood
"dps meters are in"? That's not how I heard it.
From the video: -
Q: (Brahn) "Is that going to be available in the future: the ability to manipulate the UI on the screen?"
A: (Kilsin) "Yes... changing the UI around and resizing and stuff is definitely a plan for us. Reskinning it as well?... absolutely. The only thing we're not sure on yet and we're pretty kind of against is like add-ons that'll do something for you: so you know, aggro meters, DPS meters, things like that.
Obviously people still can parse combat logs outside externally, which is something we can't really control, we'll dumb-down the client as much as we can to limit the available information, but no matter what some guilds and raiders like that information...
We don't want to allow any kinds of add-ons at the moment that give you a hand. We don't want something telling you to move..."Sounds to me like they really don't want DPS meters and are going to try and restrict them as much as possible and they don't want to open the game to modder add-ons at all.
Parsing those (dumbed down) logs they can't stop, but in-game, real-time DPS meter add-ons? Nope.
disposalist said:Parsing those (dumbed down) logs they can't stop, but in-game, real-time DPS meter add-ons? Nope.
So... I keep seeing people saying that they don't want dps meters that show them what to do... well this confuses me. Since a dps meter is just that... I meter that breaks down your dps. It doesn't give you any indicator on what you should be doing.
In reference to "real time" parsing. Even GamParse for eq1 has the ability to real time parse. It's not something they can stop unless the fundamentally change how logging works.
But honestly, most people don't even look at dps meters until after the fights. As an analyzing tool. They should absolutely be available.
Also, skill in eq was 100% based on recognizing what's going on. But as a necro, being able to keep track of 7 dots was some of the most fun in the game. Knowing I was doing 89dps didnt change what i needed to pay attention to. There wasnt alot of options available for "rotations" since you knew what spells were the most dps. The only time "rotations" were going to be important was maximizing fps AND mana at the same time. Figuring out your max dps without running oom before the boss dies.
I think many people are confusing a standard DPS Parser program with a more sophisticated Log Parser program like Advanced Combat Tracker, where you could have it real-time parse and tell you when to move. (Because the big bad just did his special pre-attack dialogue that you now don't have to pay attention to because someone else created a trigger event for it in the parser.)
I'm all for being able to track my damage output as I mess around with my combat abiliites/gear and try to find a good personal rotation. Anything else... eh... I don't think a game should need it to play. (EQ2 fell down this horrible programing rabbit hole when they just assumed that ALL raiders will be using ACT and so made the encounters extremely difficult to do if you weren't running one. Blah.)
I use most of them as a necessary evil. At the end of the day the elitists depend on my download of their dumb addon before I can play with them, and the elitists make up an unfortunately large part of the fanbase.
That said, I would love a good journal or mapper addon that lets me put my own notes on it if those aren't in the game. Something about it makes it more fun than the web page or note pad on the other monitor strategy. And personal-only UI/clothes changing addons don't really hurt anyone even if I rarely bother.
Xxar said:There is nothing elitist about having the information and being uninformed.
I agree completely and totally. Having too much data is far preferable (personally) than being starved for it. Having that data present on my UI vs having to dig through multiple drop down menus to get to it is also highly preferable (Huge mega ESO failure IMO).
It is when you take that data to the next level and start telling others they are not worthy to be with you or your fellow elitists if their DPS is not up to snuff, that is what is Elitist about it. If the data does not put your nose in the clouds then there is nothing wrong with it. Some people in this thread are confusing something that tells you what to do like DBM (Deadly Boss Mods) with Damage meters. If DPS meters was broken down further to meters that only told you your own "what and how much" and left out the rest, "the who", then I think there would be less negative reaction by the logical thinkers here. Those that think it was in WoW hence it is evil, well I discount them and their thoughts anyway.
I also think that if you get right down too it, Add-ons can be broken down into Combat and Non-Combat. I see not nearly as much opposition for non-combat add-ons. I personally want all kinds of data in my face 24/7. If the client can give it to me on my UI- great. If it cannot, then I want add-ons so I can get it there.