PvP, only PvP. My preference does not imply that PvP is better than PvE.
Honestly.. Don't try to balance the PvP in Pantheon. 1v1 balancing will never truly work as stated previously. Strength in numbers will always win out. Not only in numbers do I mean this, but it gives you diversity in abilities from having multiple classes in your party. EQ1 PvP was pretty horrible, but it accidentally ended up being a group PvP atmosphere (like the rest of the game *gasp*). I don't think it was designed to be this way, it was just more of the devs saying, "Yeah.. We'll give you PvP, but don't expect us to care much about how it pans out. Deal with it." I'm fine with that, too. Don't want to die or get ganked? Then don't travel solo or take precautions (maintaing invis, see invis, absorb shields, etc.). Down with pandering!
If you are a true PvPer, you'll find out what works and be forced to make friends.
PVE for me, i enjoy the social aspect, and the enjoyment of grouping and soloing. I enjoy to raid larger then life boss mobs, and i love to progress. I loved the way we had it in EQ, but i never enjoyed nerfing.
PVP is more for me when i play other games like OKAM or simply arma 3. I dont think this will make a great pvp game.
Kalgore said:Lodgedogg said: The absolutely best part about this thread for me is thinking when someone says I tried pvp in X game and some jackass ruined y experience, I can't hope to think and hope that said jackass was me and it makes it all worth it
:D Exactly
Honestly, this is exactly the point... PVP brings the worst out in people especially where little to no in-game consequences exist.
I prefer PVE because I like to play highly specialized roles in groups to cooperatively bring down challenging content. I look forward to playing a game that has a focus on group tactics and not just ability whack-a-mole. I'm glad that Pantheon is aiming to bring back the social aspects of MMO game play.
Lizelle said:Kalgore said:Lodgedogg said: The absolutely best part about this thread for me is thinking when someone says I tried pvp in X game and some jackass ruined y experience, I can't hope to think and hope that said jackass was me and it makes it all worth it
:D Exactly
Honestly, this is exactly the point... PVP brings the worst out in people especially where little to no in-game consequences exist.
I prefer PVE because I like to play highly specialized roles in groups to cooperatively bring down challenging content. I look forward to playing a game that has a focus on group tactics and not just ability whack-a-mole. I'm glad that Pantheon is aiming to bring back the social aspects of MMO game play.
I like how you assume so much yet you have never played it. I promise you my PVP groups were as speclized and social as most raiding guilds if not more. as for challange and content sorry but raiding PVE is much easier then raiding on a PVP server. pull that raid mob while a group of players are attacking you forcing to you fight both :)
My groups and raids were very social for several reasons. Unlike mobs that have scripts and always do the same thing over and over you have no clue what another group of player will do who they will target the buffs on incoming or how they will stagger for defense. group tactics are critical to winning against 6,12,24,48 people.
We were also social because we did not group with random people my PVP/raiding guild everyone knew everything about all the guildmates a lot of us even traveled to ireland for a real life meet and drink vacation.
As for consquences a PVP server is loaded with them. Piss off the wrong people and you will be griefed over and over. PLenty of players were on instalkill lists and couldnt go out into the open without stacked groups because a sitting would call down the wrath of a hit squad.
Kalgore said:Lizelle said:Kalgore said:Lodgedogg said: The absolutely best part about this thread for me is thinking when someone says I tried pvp in X game and some jackass ruined y experience, I can't hope to think and hope that said jackass was me and it makes it all worth it
:D Exactly
Honestly, this is exactly the point... PVP brings the worst out in people especially where little to no in-game consequences exist.
I prefer PVE because I like to play highly specialized roles in groups to cooperatively bring down challenging content. I look forward to playing a game that has a focus on group tactics and not just ability whack-a-mole. I'm glad that Pantheon is aiming to bring back the social aspects of MMO game play.
I like how you assume so much yet you have never played it. I promise you my PVP groups were as speclized and social as most raiding guilds if not more. as for challange and content sorry but raiding PVE is much easier then raiding on a PVP server. pull that raid mob while a group of players are attacking you forcing to you fight both :)
My groups and raids were very social for several reasons. Unlike mobs that have scripts and always do the same thing over and over you have no clue what another group of player will do who they will target the buffs on incoming or how they will stagger for defense. group tactics are critical to winning against 6,12,24,48 people.
We were also social because we did not group with random people my PVP/raiding guild everyone knew everything about all the guildmates a lot of us even traveled to ireland for a real life meet and drink vacation.
As for consquences a PVP server is loaded with them. Piss off the wrong people and you will be griefed over and over. PLenty of players were on instalkill lists and couldnt go out into the open without stacked groups because a sitting would call down the wrath of a hit squad.
You and a few others in this thread are basically claiming that you get off by griefing real people. You and your kind are to blame for people hating what you guys call "PvP". It's funny and sad watching you guys gloat about being able to kill a group while they are fighting a raid boss... it must take a lot of skill to be douchebags to other humans. I find it rather easily accomplished on the level of some of your boasts with just a few words. That's because it doesn't take skill...
We have enough strife in the world today where people think it's okay to kill any creature they see and brag how they killed it from a mile away with a high powered rifle. And they did it just so they could claim they did and to take a picture. As if was some huge feat to kill a living creature that was most likely out numbered and out geared. Very similar to how a twink would go around destroying people and get the false impression that they are better than others due to their "skill". This might be an extreme example, however these extremes are the similar behavior of those few who think it's okay to take and kill because they can. The entire world is already at each other's throats with their selfish human nature with little or no regard for others. I'd rather not have more of that introduced into my gaming world where I come to escape from the shitty real world from time to time. I would go further to state that I believe breeding gamers into thinking it's okay to take or kill just because they can creates a gaming experience that is shallow and wrong for our future gamers.
I personally have played several MMOs with PvP (including EQ) and the only two that I ever thought got it right were two text based games with a small community. The reason being is that people didn't just kill people because they could or because they were rewarded for it. They killed for RP reasons or due to in game politics. In these games you could be what they called "souled" meaning that if you were killed enough times without healing at a healer (which was very expensive) your character would be permanently deleted. In todays games with todays mentality I feel this type of system would probably not work. However I do know that when there are severe consequences for people's actions it tends to help balance out the mindless/skillless killing that happens in the name of "PvP".
Either way I'm relieved to find that the griefers are the minority here.
Niien said:Kalgore said:Lizelle said:Kalgore said:Lodgedogg said: The absolutely best part about this thread for me is thinking when someone says I tried pvp in X game and some jackass ruined y experience, I can't hope to think and hope that said jackass was me and it makes it all worth it
:D Exactly
Honestly, this is exactly the point... PVP brings the worst out in people especially where little to no in-game consequences exist.
I prefer PVE because I like to play highly specialized roles in groups to cooperatively bring down challenging content. I look forward to playing a game that has a focus on group tactics and not just ability whack-a-mole. I'm glad that Pantheon is aiming to bring back the social aspects of MMO game play.
I like how you assume so much yet you have never played it. I promise you my PVP groups were as speclized and social as most raiding guilds if not more. as for challange and content sorry but raiding PVE is much easier then raiding on a PVP server. pull that raid mob while a group of players are attacking you forcing to you fight both :)
My groups and raids were very social for several reasons. Unlike mobs that have scripts and always do the same thing over and over you have no clue what another group of player will do who they will target the buffs on incoming or how they will stagger for defense. group tactics are critical to winning against 6,12,24,48 people.
We were also social because we did not group with random people my PVP/raiding guild everyone knew everything about all the guildmates a lot of us even traveled to ireland for a real life meet and drink vacation.
As for consquences a PVP server is loaded with them. Piss off the wrong people and you will be griefed over and over. PLenty of players were on instalkill lists and couldnt go out into the open without stacked groups because a sitting would call down the wrath of a hit squad.
You and a few others in this thread are basically claiming that you get off by griefing real people. You and your kind are to blame for people hating what you guys call "PvP". It's funny and sad watching you guys gloat about being able to kill a group while they are fighting a raid boss... it must take a lot of skill to be douchebags to other humans. I find it rather easily accomplished on the level of some of your boasts with just a few words. That's because it doesn't take skill...
We have enough strife in the world today where people think it's okay to kill any creature they see and brag how they killed it from a mile away with a high powered rifle. And they did it just so they could claim they did and to take a picture. As if was some huge feat to kill a living creature that was most likely out numbered and out geared. Very similar to how a twink would go around destroying people and get the false impression that they are better than others due to their "skill". This might be an extreme example, however these extremes are the similar behavior of those few who think it's okay to take and kill because they can. The entire world is already at each other's throats with their selfish human nature with little or no regard for others. I'd rather not have more of that introduced into my gaming world where I come to escape from the shitty real world from time to time. I would go further to state that I believe breeding gamers into thinking it's okay to take or kill just because they can creates a gaming experience that is shallow and wrong for our future gamers.
I personally have played several MMOs with PvP (including EQ) and the only two that I ever thought got it right were two text based games with a small community. The reason being is that people didn't just kill people because they could or because they were rewarded for it. They killed for RP reasons or due to in game politics. In these games you could be what they called "souled" meaning that if you were killed enough times without healing at a healer (which was very expensive) your character would be permanently deleted. In todays games with todays mentality I feel this type of system would probably not work. However I do know that when there are severe consequences for people's actions it tends to help balance out the mindless/skillless killing that happens in the name of "PvP".
Either way I'm relieved to find that the griefers are the minority here.
EQ and EQ2 had reasons for it. One side was qeyno one was freeport they are enemies. Reason enough to kill a player honestly. Oh enemy guild is pulling a rare contested that drops uber leet gear. Better go PVP them because thats what happens in war you never let the otherside just gain an advantage. I staed many advantages to PVP and backed them up and yet you just spout of crap that really has no bearing. It a PVP world there is no griefing you made a choice to play against pvpers so you are fair game.
I do find it funny you talk about how bad and evil and mean PVPers are and yet you turn it into a person attack with some of your comments against pvpers....Hello Kettle have you met pot.
Kalgore said:I like how you assume so much yet you have never played it.
I have played PVP, I don't prefer it, which is the question this thread is posing. I listed my preferences and the type of play I enjoy. I was not commenting on what PVP does or does not offer to those who prefer it.
Kalgore said:As for consquences a PVP server is loaded with them. Piss off the wrong people and you will be griefed over and over.
I was referring to game design, not social repercussions. For example, if you killed your wife your her family might come after you but you also would have to deal with the police. In a similar way, game designers can have an impact on how people behave by creating limits, rules, insentives for incouraging or discouraging certin types of behavoir.
Lizelle said:I was referring to game design, not social repercussions. For example, if you killed your wife your her family might come after you but you also would have to deal with the police. In a similar way, game designers can have an impact on how people behave by creating limits, rules, insentives for incouraging or discouraging certin types of behavoir.
That could totally be implemented with a faction system and a forgiveness system. If a player was not at war with you and killed you, a dialog would ask you if you forgive the offense. If not, the player gets a faction hit. If the player was of a different race or one naturally at war with yours, they probably won't care. That would encourage friendly relations among people of allied races. Permitted there is a limited number of guilds a guild can declare war on, that makes it so they have to be careful about who they kill or it could come back and hurt them.
Not that I think that ruleset is necessary for every server, but I wouldn't be against it. It's actually realistic and your choices should have an impact on your standing with the world, just like your faction for killing NPCs.
Dullahan said:Lizelle said:I was referring to game design, not social repercussions. For example, if you killed your wife your her family might come after you but you also would have to deal with the police. In a similar way, game designers can have an impact on how people behave by creating limits, rules, insentives for incouraging or discouraging certin types of behavoir.
That could totally be implemented with a faction system and a forgiveness system. If a player was not at war with you and killed you, a dialog would ask you if you forgive the offense. If not, the player gets a faction hit. If the player was of a different race or one naturally at war with yours, they probably won't care. That would encourage friendly relations among people of allied races. Permitted there is a limited number of guilds a guild can declare war on, that makes it so they have to be careful about who they kill or it could come back and hurt them.
Not that I think that ruleset is necessary for every server, but I wouldn't be against it. It's actually realistic and your choices should have an impact on your standing with the world, just like your faction for killing NPCs.
I like this. However I should point out it would alienate the sandbox pvpers who are veterans of eq1 pvp. Do what you want, when you want, kill everyone however you want with whatever advantages you want and laugh.
To some, like the people who that one guy called griefers, that sounds fun, to others...horrid. I actually don't like it much myself, but the ones who feel it is fun need things that represent them.
For those of us who prefer things that are more...fair...there are games that actually enforce their pvp balance, and with very specific events even pve Pantheon servers could have pvp every now and again.
I'm most absolutely pro-PvP... when the systems in place for it are sound. What I don't quite comprehend is this frequent assertion of bad behaviour being nigh exclusive to that environ, though, oft as the prime counterargument.
This was a couple of weeks ago... during what was supposed to be a routine smash and grab raid clear in an ahem, primarily PvE game.
[MOD EDIT: REMOVED LINK]
The flavour details here: on our first pull we were well ahead of an average killing time, we failed not on the part of the attacked person so much as the flamer being greedy, the attacked healer left after being slagged off, we ended up wasting more time finding that exceedingly rare willing replacement. This is after a single wipe.
This is becom-... nay, has become a remarkably commonplace spectacle, in an area advertised as being pretty pristine amidst the jaded. The pressure to produce godly parses and building an asinine intolerance to failure is turning people into monsters regardless; PvE is not spared. I'll admit that on the whole etiquette is iffy-er when PvP is thrust into the equation when compared to PvE. This does in no way automatically convey saintly status among PvE purists in the face of that, however.
I know in myself that I uphold a pretty choice code of conduct whilst I'm prowling in open world outside of large-scale wartime – and in pit- fighting i.e. arenas where anything goes. I won't attack anyone below my level unless my safety is threatened by sheer numbers. I won't immediately jump in to assist a faction ally that I feel should be able to win in a bout of mano a mano, since I don't wanna contribute myself to a gang-mobbing. It's just not my idea of fun, so I'll do my bit of observing first. There are my exceptions o' course, as well as there are finer nuances with every engagement – if I have "guff" with this person compounding the situation, for instance.
I dislike the notion of attacking people while on a raid boss... hoooowever... I openly invite that cast to attack me and our lot while doing that. It's such a thrill! Especially when you, the victim, wind up trouncing them. It's a good slapping on the cheeks for being cheap, "Better luck next time old chap(s)." ;) I don't know where I'd be without that threat in an open PvP climate. Light will always cast a shadow, as they say, it'd be dull without it.
Open world PvP'ers are not satanspawn, being found out with that-which-is-not-milk staining your upper lip; that you know the taste of "fellow" player character blood doesn't make you some drooling degenerate. It's an unfair label to be sure. Griefing is not "the way of it", there are some real black knights out there; that dole out their macabre brand of justness. We police each other the same way baddies are policed by the white caps of that community for jarring conduct during PvE.
It is possible to be a sporting predator, but I've blatantly digressed. The original topic was of PvE or PvP without the moral dilemma. I choose PvP. I love quality PvE too, near enough just as much; that's why I'm here! Thus if PvP wasn't an option I don't even care, as I'm muchly aware this is a PvE centric game; but it'd be the icing on the cake if it was any good. In the end, I enjoy variety; I dislike being stuck in the ways of one mould and never alternating for that change of pace. Now to tally on ho~.
Mod Edit: Removed link for including language that is against forum guidelines, please be more careful in future.
EQ1 PvP was the most gratifying, emotional, and challenging gaming experience I have ever had.
Someone said PvP brings out the worst in people. Yes it does. But it also brings out the best in people. I have been "PK"ed by someone, only to have them rez me back and thank me for a good fight. Bad things happen, but it makes the good things more meaningful.
I am still friends with the people I met on Tallon Zek. We still talk about the times we had PvPing, or PvEing in a PvP charged atmosphere where everything matters.
PvP isnt for everyone, but people who enjoy it are passionate about it.
Greattaste said:EQ1 PvP was the most gratifying, emotional, and challenging gaming experience I have ever had.
Someone said PvP brings out the worst in people. Yes it does. But it also brings out the best in people. I have been "PK"ed by someone, only to have them rez me back and thank me for a good fight. Bad things happen, but it makes the good things more meaningful.
I am still friends with the people I met on Tallon Zek. We still talk about the times we had PvPing, or PvEing in a PvP charged atmosphere where everything matters.
PvP isnt for everyone, but people who enjoy it are passionate about it.
Agreed. I think everyone should at least try the PvP servers in a game like EQ, Vanguard, and now Pantheon. You might surprise yourself and really enjoy it.
PvP servers in a PvE community centric game is a COMPLETELY different experience than the PvP you expereince in themepark MMO's or PvP full loot Sandboxes/Survival games.
Lovecraft said:The constant churning of "PvP Balance" and "PvP Flavor of the Month" ruins PvE. Unless the game is designed just for PvP, I perfer MMORPGs to be PvE in nature.
Correct, it does ruin PvE. That's why they won't be balancing the classes around PvP in Pantheon.
PvE games in nature that allow FFA PvP servers, create the best PvP experiences IMO.
BeaverBiscuit said:I like this. However I should point out it would alienate the sandbox pvpers who are veterans of eq1 pvp. Do what you want, when you want, kill everyone however you want with whatever advantages you want and laugh.
To some, like the people who that one guy called griefers, that sounds fun, to others...horrid. I actually don't like it much myself, but the ones who feel it is fun need things that represent them.
For those of us who prefer things that are more...fair...there are games that actually enforce their pvp balance, and with very specific events even pve Pantheon servers could have pvp every now and again.
Yeah, there could be different rulesets for PvP, but there were 4 PvP servers in EQ originally, and only one had total free for all like you describe. The other's had some sort of realistic faction system with hardcoded teams.
Honestly I think the whole "sandbox" term gets misused. Just because something is sandbox does not, in any way, suggest that there it shouldn't be dictated by logical rules. Sandbox only means you can kill anyone, it doesn't mean that you should be able to do so without drawbacks. Those drawbacks should, however, be constructs of the players, meaning they determine the punishment. In UO, that mean deciding what level of lawless or lawfulness was acceptable in a particular region.
I always chose PvP on any MMO. I loved the PvP in EQ. I honestly dont even care if they dont even balance PvP at all with Pantheon which I am sure they wont. The constant sense of the possibility someone just coming to gank you out of nowhere makes the heart pump, makes you way more cautious as to what parts you are traveling. I find the PvE in MMO's you just run around anywhere with very little fear. I feel like the one problem with them somewhat not balancing the classes is you may not see alot of warriors on a PvP server because they "suck" at PvP, which could make it that much harder to find a tank for your group.
If I could wear one set of gear for both, sure. But few things suck more than to be geared out for a raid and have to deal with other players that came to harass you in their PvP gear.
I would be willing to do more PvP if there were specific open-world areas I could go to for PvP, but be able to concentrate on PvE when I want to.
Since the will probably not happen, it's PvE for me.
Maybe after I have done all the PvE I want, I might create and alt on a PvP server, if they are even still around.
PvE is more engaging and memorable in terms of experiences with your friends.
PvP is only really fun for me when in a controlled environment (arenas or battlegrounds).
Open world PvP is so degenerative towards gameplay, it is fun in the moment for a cheap thrill (ganking someone while they regen). But no one ever engages in a fair fight in open world PvP and someone always gets griefed because of it.
dauthi said:PvE is more engaging and memorable in terms of experiences with your friends.
PvP is only really fun for me when in a controlled environment (arenas or battlegrounds).
Open world PvP is so degenerative towards gameplay, it is fun in the moment for a cheap thrill (ganking someone while they regen). But no one ever engages in a fair fight in open world PvP and someone always gets griefed because of it.
Not true at all. DAoC is entirely open world PvP and ganks do happen, but finding relatively honorable 1v1's is very easy to do. The same can be said of EQ2. Ganking happens, but it's not the majority of gameplay.
Open world PvP is really the only PvP I enjoy in MMOs. Arenas/Battlegrounds are too sterile. There's no element of surprise, no terrain, etc.
PvE. Creates a healthier community. This means a game that lasts for the ages. PvP games tend to devolve into a lot of toxcity and hate unless you spend a lot of time balancing the game from the ground up in an open-PvP environment such as DAoC did. Open world PvP is a lot of fun, but it's entirely designed differently than a cooperative PvE game. Once you throw in PvP into the mix, it often taints PvE balance and ends up being a frustration. Either go PvE for a game, or open-world PvP. Trying to do both ends up causing more harm than good.
dauthi said:PvE is more engaging and memorable in terms of experiences with your friends.
PvP is only really fun for me when in a controlled environment (arenas or battlegrounds).
Open world PvP is so degenerative towards gameplay, it is fun in the moment for a cheap thrill (ganking someone while they regen). But no one ever engages in a fair fight in open world PvP and someone always gets griefed because of it.
Have you actually played a game where you had to battle content and players at the same time? Like competing over a dungeon or a raid, or trying to fight off a raid mob while also surviving a player onslaught? It's actually a pretty amazing way to make the world more dynamic and feel more alive.
Also, DAoC wasn't technically completely open world in the traditional sense, because there were limitations as to what areas you could access as a particular faction. You could pretty much raid dungeons completely uncontested, which was what ultimately made it less compelling than EQ pvp to me.
RpTheHotrod said:PvE. Creates a healthier community. This means a game that lasts for the ages. PvP games tend to devolve into a lot of toxcity and hate unless you spend a lot of time balancing the game from the ground up in an open-PvP environment such as DAoC did. Open world PvP is a lot of fun, but it's entirely designed differently than a cooperative PvE game. Once you throw in PvP into the mix, it often taints PvE balance and ends up being a frustration. Either go PvE for a game, or open-world PvP. Trying to do both ends up causing more harm than good.
As I stated earlier, having played on both EQ PvP and PvE servers, I can testify that this was certainly not the case. The environment on Rallos Zek was far more cordial than that of Tarew Marr. At least beyond level 20 (a lot of people from RZ and other servers had newbie ganker characters). I can't speak to how it worked on the other PvP servers, but you would be surprised, in a game with a serious death penalty, how powerful of a motivator being able to kill another player is when it comes to player respect and a positive environment.
Games that allow players to gank without repercussions is a different story though.