Kilsin said:Krixus said:The progeny system seems like a shallow, fake, time sink mechanic. Until it has been defined, I'm thumbs down in a big way. It's not something the devs should be spending time and money on.
This is why making claims and speaking about a system before you actually know what it is about is a bad thing, you just completely wrote it off without ever knowing the details or trying it for yourself, which is not helpful at all.
*presses like-button*
-Todd
From what I see, the progeny system might be one of those "soft mechanics" that some keep bristling with resentment about. It's not a huge, mega impacting mechanic, but add a bunch of soft mechanics up and they begin to collectively help address a potential problem. This soft mechanic helps address the "high level players denying lower level players appropriate content" I think.
Here's how I see it:
VRI slightly "twinks" your new toon with something really cool and unique to a degree, because you've hit max level and paid your dues as a player and you deserve a little extra for completing the journey to max level and the willingness to retire a max level character for good.. So, if you are willing to not play that character again, you explore the progeny system. The soft mechanic aspect?
What I also see is it taking a high level character out of the game, and putting a new starting character into the game, giving the opportunity for the people exploring progeny to group once again with players who are not able to play as much etc and do not level as quickly due to time constraints. Might help people find groups more, who knows.
The incentive of sorts to keep exploring the server as a progeny and level with other people at appropriate content, see new parts of the world and familiar ones again, getting pixels along the way as opposed to sitting at a camp farming ITEM A over and over as max etc is appealing to me. Farmers are still gonna farm and find ways to do it effectively, but that's MMO life, welcome to it.
I like the idea so far
Edit - I also see the ability to farm at max level staying in the game, so rest at ease farmers, I am sure there will be lots and lots of farming!
Well I suppose for someone like me who gets super attached to their main and couldn't bear to "retire" them forever... but might want the bonuses if it was discovered they were super great.. I suppose they could start a "pre-main.. with the full intention of sacrificing it to the "main" they want to have in the end.... because that is now what I am thinking as my way around the progeny system, if the desired "rewards" are something I might want long term on my main... (but I don't want to feel rushed to level up a character to sacrifice it to the progeny system... so I honestly hope the reward isn't that great or tempting... because I don't want to go this route.. but I probaly would if it was "really cool".... )
RumorHasit said:
Well I suppose for someone like me who gets super attached to their main and couldn't bear to "retire" them forever... but might want the bonuses if it was discovered they were super great.. I suppose they could start a "pre-main.. with the full intention of sacrificing it to the "main" they want to have in the end.... because that is now what I am thinking as my way around the progeny system, if the desired "rewards" are something I might want long term on my main... (but I don't want to feel rushed to level up a character to sacrifice it to the progeny system... so I honestly hope the reward isn't that great or tempting... because I don't want to go this route.. but I probaly would if it was "really cool".... )
10/10 for honesty lol, great post
I think I would keep a minimum of one or two max level "main" non-progeny char's, mostly because we are not sure how future level limit raises etc will work with expacs etc, but as one of the people with a good amount of free time I'll definitely progeny some characters as well over time. Would be cool if there was some minor benefit to staying as a legacy character too maybe, over time
Very curious to see what the incentives to progeny will be though
patrick83 said:Just in response to Kil's ''small bonus/nothign major'', I don't think you know completitionist nutjobs like me. You could mail me a VR turd as long as it came in a nice box and I'd restart my char to get the small ''perk'' lol Well OK maybe not for a ...but you get my point. Even if a spell of your choosing could get 1% or 0.5% extra CHANCE at damage, I'd do it. As per some, I have problems, as per others, I have a lot of problems and as per me, I'm a completitionist ;p
Roflmaocopter!
RumorHasit said:
Well I suppose for someone like me who gets super attached to their main and couldn't bear to "retire" them forever... but might want the bonuses if it was discovered they were super great.. I suppose they could start a "pre-main.. with the full intention of sacrificing it to the "main" they want to have in the end.... because that is now what I am thinking as my way around the progeny system, if the desired "rewards" are something I might want long term on my main... (but I don't want to feel rushed to level up a character to sacrifice it to the progeny system... so I honestly hope the reward isn't that great or tempting... because I don't want to go this route.. but I probaly would if it was "really cool".... )
Folks. I don't think jumping the gun is a good idea at this point. Save the pitchforks and torches for when your concerns are brought to light in the feature's release. Not before.
I have similar concerns as many of you have but I was thinking....
What if the content your progeny goes through is completely fresh? What if quests fork in new ways? What if you accumulate additional faction leading to new gear, recipes, content? What if the class epic is altered, adjusted or even improved? New spells? Better mounts? Who knows at this point.
We don't have all the facts yet. So relax and put those torches and pitchforks in the closet for a while.
OakKnower said:The discussion was "the progeny system- What say you?". And Kilsin's question directly asked if we would utilize the system. People are honestly answering. None of your "what ifs" address how I feel, which is that I like to get attached and stay attached to my main.. and therefore I do not perceive myself liking or ever wanting to retire it, no matter what. but that is just MY PERSONAL answer to Kilsin's question, which is what he asked for..... please do not accuse people of pitchforks and torches when they are trying to honestly answer questions they are asked with an open dialogue.patrick83 said:Just in response to Kil's ''small bonus/nothign major'', I don't think you know completitionist nutjobs like me. You could mail me a VR turd as long as it came in a nice box and I'd restart my char to get the small ''perk'' lol Well OK maybe not for a ...but you get my point. Even if a spell of your choosing could get 1% or 0.5% extra CHANCE at damage, I'd do it. As per some, I have problems, as per others, I have a lot of problems and as per me, I'm a completitionist ;p
Roflmaocopter!
RumorHasit said:
Well I suppose for someone like me who gets super attached to their main and couldn't bear to "retire" them forever... but might want the bonuses if it was discovered they were super great.. I suppose they could start a "pre-main.. with the full intention of sacrificing it to the "main" they want to have in the end.... because that is now what I am thinking as my way around the progeny system, if the desired "rewards" are something I might want long term on my main... (but I don't want to feel rushed to level up a character to sacrifice it to the progeny system... so I honestly hope the reward isn't that great or tempting... because I don't want to go this route.. but I probaly would if it was "really cool".... )
Folks. I don't think jumping the gun is a good idea at this point. Save the pitchforks and torches for when your concerns are brought to light in the feature's release. Not before.
I have similar concerns as many of you have but I was thinking....
What if the content your progeny goes through is completely fresh? What if quests fork in new ways? What if you accumulate additional faction leading to new gear, recipes, content? What if the class epic is altered, adjusted or even improved? New spells? Better mounts? Who knows at this point.
We don't have all the facts yet. So relax and put those torches and pitchforks in the closet for a while.
Thanks
Rum
@ RumorHasit.
Wow. I'm really sorry. I couldn't quote everyone. My post was really meant for all the critics. I never meant to single you out at all. And. I wasn't assuming you had pitchforks and torches. I was attempting to make light of all the criticism (some of which I honestly share). I also would not want to forgo a main I have spent hours upon hours working on but I must be fair in speaking about something I know virtually nothing about yet.
So for that please, please, please accept my apologies.
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
I see, and just "WHO" will be the mother of my level 1 son or daughter? Would I be able to court this purported black widow NPC mother, and thus breed my level 1 son or daughter to create a hybrid class? Lets be more specific, less action pics, I'm a horny warrior and my hot female mate is a wood elf Druid therefore my level 1 son/daughter is to be a born ranger....or wait, better....how about only certain special classes would be available through breeding? For example, I am a Warrior and my hot NPC female mate is a Mage, therefore and only through breeding, can my level 1 son or daughter be.....YES! A WAR MAGE! (war wizard not gonna happen)This should not unbalance the game....much, but I still don't think it's worth sacrificing a character, that I spent so much time bonding with. However, if for nothing more equitable, I like the idea of reintroducing into the game experience a nostalgic aspect that was once imagined by heirlooming in EQ2. It would be a more genuine form of "Heritage". Devs can scale this flexibly as it becomes more interesting to player subculture with further support of the breed features to grow entire lineage, class aristocracy, maybe even royalty....wow this coffee is great!
Mod Edit: Image removed as per forum guidelines.
I see, and just "WHO" will be the mother of my level 1 son or daughter? Would I be able to court this purported black widow NPC mother, and thus breed my level 1 son or daughter to create a hybrid class? Lets be more specific, less action pics, I'm a horny warrior and my hot female mate is a Druid, therefore my level 1 son/daughter is to be a born ranger....or wait, better....how about only certain special classes would be available through breeding? For example, I am a Warrior and my hot NPC female mate is a Mage, therefore and only through breeding, can my level 1 son or daughter be.....YES A WAR MAGE! This should not unbalance the game, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing a character, that I spent so much time bonding with. However, I like the idea of bringing into the game experience a nostalgic aspect that was once imagined by heirlooming in EQ2. It would be a more genuine form of "Heritage". You can scale this further as it becomes more interesting to game subculture, and support the breed culture to grow entire lineage, class aristocracy, maybe even royalty....wow this coffee is great!
What if that was the only thing no known, but permanent. and where not only class but also race played a part. in your example a human warrior and a half elf druid may produce a wood elf ranger, a dwarven warrior and a half elf druid may produce a.....halfling thief? (shunned by both parents!) and once done, cannot go back.
a skar shaman and an Ogre shaman ("meeskites" from Musical cabaret) produce a high elf crusader?... put some truth in the song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_PANCU9oQ
:D
OakKnower said:Throw in cookies and its a deal!! :D@ RumorHasit.
Wow. I'm really sorry. I couldn't quote everyone. My post was really meant for all the critics. I never meant to single you out at all. And. I wasn't assuming you had pitchforks and torches. I was attempting to make light of all the criticism (some of which I honestly share). I also would not want to forgo a main I have spent hours upon hours working on but I must be fair in speaking about something I know virtually nothing about yet.
So for that please, please, please accept my apologies.
SyriusNorthstar said:Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
I see, and just "WHO" will be the mother of my level 1 son or daughter? Would I be able to court this purported black widow NPC mother, and thus breed my level 1 son or daughter to create a hybrid class? Lets be more specific, less action pics, I'm a horny warrior and my hot female mate is a wood elf Druid (*see attached) therefore my level 1 son/daughter is to be a born ranger....or wait, better....how about only certain special classes would be available through breeding? For example, I am a Warrior and my hot NPC female mate is a Wizard, therefore and only through breeding, can my level 1 son or daughter be.....YES A WAR WIZARD! This should not unbalance the game, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing a character, that I spent so much time bonding with. However, I like the idea of bringing into the game experience a nostalgic aspect that was once imagined by heirlooming in EQ2. It would be a more genuine form of "Heritage". You can scale this further as it becomes more interesting to game subculture, and support the breed culture to grow entire lineage, class aristocracy, maybe even royalty....wow this coffee is great!
Mod Edit: Image removed as per forum guidelines.
As I said, we have not gone into detail yet, we will speak more about the system when we put some more work into it, currently, we have other priorities, when we get back around to spending more time on the Progeny system, we will go into much greater details like we do with most of the feature releases that we provide.
I went ahead and removed your image for a few of reasons; we have explained that we won't have over-sexualized female characters, it is not Pantheon related and images are kept to a minimum on these developer forums, unless giving accurate visualisations of mechanics, features, systems etc. to help developers with ideas/feedback. (it was very nice, though :))
Manouk said:I see, and just "WHO" will be the mother of my level 1 son or daughter? Would I be able to court this purported black widow NPC mother, and thus breed my level 1 son or daughter to create a hybrid class? Lets be more specific, less action pics, I'm a horny warrior and my hot female mate is a Druid, therefore my level 1 son/daughter is to be a born ranger....or wait, better....how about only certain special classes would be available through breeding? For example, I am a Warrior and my hot NPC female mate is a Mage, therefore and only through breeding, can my level 1 son or daughter be.....YES A WAR MAGE! This should not unbalance the game, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing a character, that I spent so much time bonding with. However, I like the idea of bringing into the game experience a nostalgic aspect that was once imagined by heirlooming in EQ2. It would be a more genuine form of "Heritage". You can scale this further as it becomes more interesting to game subculture, and support the breed culture to grow entire lineage, class aristocracy, maybe even royalty....wow this coffee is great!
What if that was the only thing no known, but permanent. and where not only class but also race played a part. in your example a human warrior and a half elf druid may produce a wood elf ranger, a dwarven warrior and a half elf druid may produce a.....halfling thief? (shunned by both parents!) and once done, cannot go back.
a skar shaman and an Ogre shaman ("meeskites" from Musical cabaret) produce a high elf crusader?... put some truth in the song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_PANCU9oQ
:D
haha i think you might be more likely to be making love and children with the "Create New Progeny Character" button than the elf of your choice, love the enthusiasm, but you never know though you could be right! ;)
I think the idea is intriguing and would not write it off. Much like what a lot of people have said, I become attached to my character. I wouldn't want to kill him off for a title.
Some ideas that I do like though is that I think factions SHOULD transfer to the progeny. How many times have we read about stories where the son of a person received the privileges of the father simply due to the relation. "Your father did so-and-so for my people, our home is your home" or something. I also think that would be a GREAT way to open up new quest dialog. Quests only available for progeny to complete. Something along the lines like "Your mother helped my parents fight during the Battle of (insert place), can you help me find (name of item) in the old battlegrounds?" That quest might only open up if the original character had reached a certain faction standing. I think it could open up a lot of fun possibilities.
Let us say that when you retire a character, you lose all of that characters equipment and bank. However the progeny could do a quest to retrieve one of the items from that character through a questline? Like finding your father's old sword in a crypt where he died? Personally I think that would be a blast to do.
I must admit that I have not read all the replies to this one, so forgive me if this has already been stated.
I love the idea. However the devil is in the details. Death/rebirth due to old age sucks. No one wants to be forced to delete their character. This would be terrible. I would love this idea if this was implemented as an Alternate Advancement system (or Alternate to Alternate :)). Once you reach a max level you have multiple paths of advancement. Both should be equally rewarding so you would choose the one that suits your play style best.
You either keep grinding for gear through raiding, etc to improve your character or you can "rebirth" your character, where you loose all your levels but have innate 1%(example) highest stats across the board. You never loose your gear when you reset. You may not be able to use them until max level, but you never loose them. This part is important. Otherwise you are forcing "rebirth" as default play style. What would be the point of choosing gear grinding when you know eventually if you rebirth you are going to loose it all. You may want to spend few months grinding for gear after reaching the max level than get bored and rebirth with higher stats. Some people will choose to just rebirth indefinitely because they hate raiding and still be on par with raiders due to higher innate stats. While others will just keep getting better and better gear and stick to the first lifetime.
The key is that it should reward your playstyle and should not be the only or the best path. I think I would enjoy restarting once in a while. Especially when you take some time off from the game, its hard to start at the top. Its nice to get used to the game and relearn the character again through lover levels while still knowing that you are improving your main character.
PS: Name (+jr, 3rd, IV, etc..), gear and class should definitelly stay.
Well, I've been reading this monster of a thread for parts of the last few days, and I have finally made it through. I want to preface my response by saying that I will assume that the PRF team is much better at developing systems like this than I am, and that I look forward to having my reservations alleviated when we get into testing. My reply to the original question is as follows:
Yes, I would let my max level character die and restart as a level 1 son or daughter, but I would definitely wish I didn't feel obligated to do it. As some others in this thread have already stated, any combat advantage at all is going to make Progeny feel mandatory for me. I would prefer an uncapped AA system to this, and I hate AA. AA ruined EverQuest for me by making it so you could never truly be finished with a character. Still, at this point, choosing an uncapped AA system over this Progeny system would be a quick and easy decision for me.
There have been some nice ideas in this thread. I think if letting a character die just gives you an experience bonus for an alt and maybe lets you keep your orginal character's factions, that could work pretty well. I dunno. As much as I hate the idea of Progeny right now, I'm almost positive that they have something up their sleeves that we haven't envisioned. So, I'll hope for that and take comfort in the fact that if it's terrible, it won't make it out of testing anyway.
Shucklighter said:Yes, I would let my max level character die and restart as a level 1 son or daughter, but I would definitely wish I didn't feel obligated to do it. As some others in this thread have already stated, any combat advantage at all is going to make Progeny feel mandatory for me. I would prefer an uncapped AA system to this, and I hate AA. AA ruined EverQuest for me by making it so you could never truly be finished with a character.
In fairness, you could cap AA in EQ, just like you could cap normal levels. Eventually you run out of AA to purchase.
Liav said:In fairness, you could cap AA in EQ, just like you could cap normal levels. Eventually you run out of AA to purchase.
All I know is that I took a break for a month or two and when I came back, I was hundreds behind and I never caught up. Hate Luclin. Anyway, I was just saying that I preferred the thing I hate most to Progeny there.
This is an intriguing topic. There is a lot to read in this thread, but I'll just throw in my opinion.
Taking the drastic action of killing off a character that required a lot of work to max out needs to be rewarded with something that is just as drastic. This is quite difficult as you don't want the player to feel as though they HAVE to kill off their first character in order to progress further. As a result of this, I do not think there is any way the developers can successfully balance out killing off a character and rewarding such an action fairly. It seems that whatever reward is given, the player will, no matter what, feel "obligated" to eventually experience the loss of their hard work. Such a reward would also have to be so good that it would seem unfair to the reset of the players as well. You do not want to stress out your players in that way.
Allow me to briefly mention something. I suggest possibly doing something similar to what Elder Scrolls Online has done, and that's what they call the Champion System. In their game, when you reach maximum level you can unlock the ability to gain what's called Champion points to allocate to a numorous amount of stat boosts (I'm talking very minimal boosts to stats). However, their game has a ridiculous amount of points that are possible to gain (potentially 3600). Each Champion point is gained when you gain enough experience to "level up". Even though your character's maximum level will stay the same, you will instead receive a champion point and the experience bar resets with a slightly higher EXP requirement to get the next point. Please look it up, as it is an involved feature and I would not do it justice with my own words. And by the way, this does NOT require the maxed out character to die.
Now I am of course not suggesting this system just be taken and used, but to use it as sort of a starting point of inspiration for potential content for players who reach maximum level in Pantheon.
I just do not think that there is any possible way of implementing this feature of killing off a maxed out character without getting some sort of backlash from the player base. I will say again... you do NOT want to impose that kind of stress on a player. I do not think a balance between this punishment vs. reward can successfully be achieved.
I am all for the system. Even if it has slight bonuses that make a character stronger. I've always heard hardcore raiders ***** and moan about "casuals" getting access to gear comperable to their own and they usually say something along the lines of they have put in so much time and effort so they deserve to have better things. Well what is wrong with someone wanting to put in more time and effort being rewarded for leveling again reborn?
Iksar said:I am all for the system. Even if it has slight bonuses that make a character stronger. I've always heard hardcore raiders ***** and moan about "casuals" getting access to gear comperable to their own and they usually say something along the lines of they have put in so much time and effort so they deserve to have better things. Well what is wrong with someone wanting to put in more time and effort being rewarded for leveling again reborn?
I don't consider rewarding people with permanent combat advantages for arbitrary tasks to be acceptable, it's pretty simple.
Raiders deserve the best gear because it is the logical highest tier of gameplay. Giving away combat advantages for things as arbitrary as repeating the leveling process a second time just makes no sense to me.
We have no idea what the perks will be. As long as it's not a combat advantage, I don't care. If the level cap is 50 and you need to utilize the Progeny system to get the maximum potential out of your character, you might as well just make the level cap 100 and skip the gimmicky stuff.
Nydan said: How about a more hardcore system? You can level to 50, but then a xpac comes out and raises the cap to 55... if your a progeny. Otherwise your still stuck at 50. Maybe have increased leveling speed for the progeny?
interesting take - but like all things - there would be workarounds to game the system. Guilds staying at 50 to power level the progenies back to 50 and then those guildies progeny'ing and rinse and repeat. I need more info, but it is definitely the proposed system I am most hesitant about.