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The Progeny System - What Say You?

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    • 626 posts
    December 5, 2016 10:59 AM PST

    Questions I would have:

    - How big would the perks be? (5% Skillset boost?)

    - How many times can you do this? (If more than once do perks get better each time?)

    - Will I get a II or III by my name?

     

    The main thing is I don't want to see Progeny System impacting the game play.

    So make the Progeny System allow players to improve their crafting skills maybe, or maybe give them an expierence boost? IE - Progeny Players get a 5% increase on crafting skills, but thats a one time deal.. and Progency Players get a 10% exp. boost to help them level up again.

     

    • 1860 posts
    December 5, 2016 11:13 AM PST

    Saicred said:

    Questions I would have:

    - How big would the perks be? (5% Skillset boost?)

    - How many times can you do this? (If more than once do perks get better each time?)

    - Will I get a II or III by my name?

     

    The main thing is I don't want to see Progeny System impacting the game play.

    So make the Progeny System allow players to improve their crafting skills maybe, or maybe give them an expierence boost? IE - Progeny Players get a 5% increase on crafting skills, but thats a one time deal.. and Progency Players get a 10% exp. boost to help them level up again.

     

     

    Little is known but I can partially answer your second question.  There have been statements that it would be more than a one time option and that there would be a cap to how many times a certain character could gain benefits by restarting.

    • 42 posts
    December 5, 2016 11:20 AM PST

    I would not use the progeny system

    If my girls ever got to max level,I would make an alt.

    As far as *playing son or daughter*  I would buy the game for my own children and let them play themselves,as I did for EQ1 ,was a great way to stay in touch.

    • 626 posts
    December 5, 2016 11:28 AM PST

    philo said:

    Saicred said:

    Questions I would have:

    - How big would the perks be? (5% Skillset boost?)

    - How many times can you do this? (If more than once do perks get better each time?)

    - Will I get a II or III by my name?

     

    The main thing is I don't want to see Progeny System impacting the game play.

    So make the Progeny System allow players to improve their crafting skills maybe, or maybe give them an expierence boost? IE - Progeny Players get a 5% increase on crafting skills, but thats a one time deal.. and Progency Players get a 10% exp. boost to help them level up again.

     

     

    Little is known but I can partially answer your second question.  There have been statements that it would be more than a one time option and that there would be a cap to how many times a certain character could gain benefits by restarting.

     

    This would make the most sense, but I believe until we find out a little more about I would be unable to say I would use it or not. If it means I won't have the best character I can have without it, then of course I'll have to use it. I hope thats not what it means, but if so then so be it. If it means I might just be able to get a perk that impacts doesn't impact my raiding ability at all then I might never use it. 

    I've never enjoyed leveling, although I did have a blast with it in EQ. So who knows maybe I'll change my mind 10x by release haha. :)

    • 29 posts
    December 5, 2016 11:32 AM PST

    Alix said:

    As far as *playing son or daughter*  I would buy the game for my own children and let them play themselves,as I did for EQ1 ,was a great way to stay in touch.

    The idea was that the re-rolled character under the Progeny System would be like the son/daughter of the main you sacrificed.

     

    Personally, I'm on the fence for the same reasons as everyone else. What exactly are the perks and do they compound?

    • 137 posts
    December 5, 2016 11:47 AM PST

    Nothing about this idea sounds good to me. I'm all about the whole carrot on a stick idea that keeps us going, but I want that carrot to be new content, new experiences and new rewards.

    If there is any type of stat/combat ability increase tied to this system, it will quickly become a requirement for raiding. I would suggest instead of sacrifice that maybe we have an ability to create offspring along with our main.....but if that offspring has any additional ability or stat increase it will then also turn into a requirement in some fashion, which is just as bad of an idea as the original imho.

    I want to build a character or through alts a set of characters, that I can, over time, become more and more powerful. I am all for adding in new interesting content at all levels.....that in itself is enough for me to want to play an alt, but I have no desire to kill off a character that I plan to play for a long period of time.


    This post was edited by Riply at December 5, 2016 11:49 AM PST
    • 2886 posts
    December 5, 2016 11:56 AM PST

    Another thing: I don't think I'm the only one that gets attached to the characters that I create and play. I imagine them having their own unique personalities. All that time invested in them makes them feel like they are a living, breathing friend. Or some people even pour their own identity in their character to help escape from the real world. For many, it is more than just a game and more than just a character. Why would we ever just want to throw that away? The pain of losing a loved one from dying of old age is probably best left to the real world.

    • 201 posts
    December 5, 2016 12:31 PM PST

    Personally I do not like this idea at all.  Basically my options are either, level a character up and then either level up another to stay competitive, or be uncompetitive by losing whatever boosts the progreny system gives, or the boost is so minimal as to be pointless anyway.

    • 74 posts
    December 5, 2016 1:20 PM PST

    As a power gamer and min-maxer by nature (as is most of my guild), I can assure you we'll be doing everything we can to blast our members through the Progeny bonus(es) as rapidly as possible to catch people back up (if sacrificing a main is required) unless there is an AA system offering equal types of gains.  If roster holes appear from any sort of system, you can be sure a focused effort will be dumped into rotating people through the bonuses.

    I urge they release some information regarding an AA system soon as a counter-option to the Progeny system giving two different playstyles an alternate way to advance. One where you redo old content and one where you do level appropriate content. For some people it's more about meeting new people (old content:Progeny) and for others it's more about staying with people you know (level appropriate:AA).

    I've already been in talks with officers and members in how we want to rotate people through a couple different Progeny mechanic scenarios should the bonuses be desirable. It's not going to be a lot of fun for truly new people with a pit crew following members to catch them back up. The new people aren't likely to get the same benefits (and likely don't want those benefits either). It's going to be worlds colliding likely more than what traditional PL of a friend or an alt would be when it comes to a guild member being raced back up with a pit crew attached. The resources available at a guild's disposal is more significant than one or two random people pushing somebody through levels.

    I think this system could serve a playstyle that tends to play alts pretty well whereas an AA system would better serve those who rather stick to fewer characters. Both playstyles would then have options to advance their characters in ways that fit their playstyles (beyond levels/gear/etc).

    Quite a bit about Progeny is speculation given how little specifics have been provided and that to my knowledge there's been no talk of an AA system as a different route for a different playstyle. 

    • 626 posts
    December 5, 2016 1:56 PM PST

    I think I would only like this If:

    The only reason you killed off your main was to reroll a new class or race, and you got nothing more then your name you love and an II or III beside it :)

     

    Maybe someone else can see a better vision of this, but I struggle with it added perks as then it becomes required for top teir players. Also means you could be in a weird place having a max level guy for raiding then having to relevel him due to a need for a perk. Could put you out of raiding for a few weeks as you level again, which may turn players away. Honestly though not 100% certain as who knows. I may love Leveling and this might be awesome! :)

    • 690 posts
    December 5, 2016 2:08 PM PST

    It seems like lots of people don't want to give up their character, either for attachment or because they don't like to have extra grinding to compete in a guild setting.

    Personally I probably would use the progeny system, possibly even for the same class, because I enjoy leveling up. In a previous post I stated my liking for a Progeny system that doesn't give any sort of competition based improvement, in favor of aestetic, balanced, and/or more short term benefits to make the system worthwhile but not necessary. In one of my favorite T.V. shows I watch characters I am attached to die horrible deaths... I aught to be happy mine would just be suffering from old age!

    And again, I would like to see this system as an optional thing. if someone likes their main and doesn't want to give him or her up no matter what then fine, traditionally twink/pl your alt. If you wanna Progeny then give up your character to maybe twink/pl your alt in some original manner, and maybe get some unique unrequired benefit.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at December 5, 2016 2:09 PM PST
    • 37 posts
    December 5, 2016 8:58 PM PST

    I would say no. I find a few classes i like and stick to it. i dont have an issue with back tracking to old content but the leveling up over and over would be more of a hassle than a benifit imo. If AA points are in game once i hit max level i want to have every single one of them i can get !

     

    • 189 posts
    December 6, 2016 4:40 AM PST
    I dont think I'm a huge fan of this idea yet. Too many unknowns and my concerns would be:
    1) I sacrafice my main, create my progeny and end up hating the class choice and wasting a lot of time and effort.
    2) I sacrafice my main and the level cap gets moved from 50 to 60 and Im now at level 5 with my new progeny.

    Would have to be something spectacular to make me delete my main, like skipping 20 levels or keeping a spell from the main like rez, or ports, or clarity - a wiz with clarity??
    • 200 posts
    December 6, 2016 6:22 AM PST

    **Disclaimer - I still need to read the entire Progeny concept ***

    In the forms being discussed it almost sounds like a Prestige system used in CoD or Diablo III to put an extra * next to your name and let you replay content.

    In my pessimistic view of the world I could quickly see content developed for 2nd or 3rd Gen Progeny only in lower level areas, which will increase replay, but also alienate some others.  Since there won't be instancing...it invites additional hurdles in loot or chests... they could have a few chests at the end...one is the 1st gen..but the others are only for 2nd or 3rd Gen progeny..etc etc...

    • 323 posts
    December 7, 2016 9:12 AM PST
    Please read Spyderoptik's post above and take it seriously as a clear warning of the destructive potential of combining the Progeny system with game mechanics that allow Power Leveling. His post clearly describes a world dominated at ALL levels by hardcore gamers and their "pit crews" of boxed PLevel characters running roughshod through every good XP zone in the game, in order to zoom Progeny chars back to max level. Incentivizing and allowing that kind of gameplay would be awful for this game, and it should be prevented through good mechanics.


    Here is another idea: Instead of giving Progeny higher stats, give them an XP modifier that increases with the level of the sacrificed character. Combine this with the effective prevention of power leveling using "pit crews" and other totally trivializing mechanics. These two mechanics would enable players to re-roll a new class and level more quickly as a reward for already hitting higher levels on the sac'd character, but without incentivizing "pit crew" based power leveling that debases the value of organic character leveling and transforms every zone into the hardcore guild's Progeny PLeveling wasteland.

    • 172 posts
    December 7, 2016 10:32 AM PST

    I am interested in the progeny system.  Depending on how it is rolled out, I may go for it.  That said, I hope it is not "required" literally or effectively.

    Just brainstorming here:  What if certain pieces of loot (high and low level) required that you be or have been in certain classes.  i.e.  a bow that requires you were a rogue and a warrior in either your current or past life.  In other words, a rogue could use it if they were a warrior previously, and a warrior could use it if they were a rogue previsouly.  Or maybe the equipment works just fine for a simple rogue or warrior, but gets a bonus with certain ancestry.

    Also:  Tradeskill recipes that either have ancestry requirements, or are boosted by certain ancestry configurations.

    None of this should be overpowering, or give the player some massive advantage.  No one should feel compelled to do this.  It would be a way for someone to fill a niche, not gain a major advantage.


    This post was edited by JDNight at December 7, 2016 10:35 AM PST
    • 231 posts
    December 7, 2016 1:04 PM PST

    I can see myself doing it on an alt, but on my main that will have raid gear I can't. This is partially out of greed since I'd lose all those items. More important imo is that the guild loses those items. All the gear that could have gone to others and still be put to use, are gone. If I were a GL/RL I wouldn't run characters in raids that might use the prog system for that reason. I suppose at launch you could burn through getting a prog done before worrying about raiding, but those of us who want to raid asap are going to run in to the issue of wasting gear. This is further damaging since they won't be instanced raids. When guilds are fighting against other guilds to get server/world firsts (or kills in general) they won't want to waste time/gear.

    The whole thing about people mass PLing characters for progeny (especially if it can happen to the same character multiple times) is also concerning. When zones are always camped because people are farming prog chars it's not welcoming to new players.

    The whole concept has always seemed odd to me in general though. If there are AAs to boost a char at max level then why do we need this extra way where you lose a character for a slightly buffed alt/new one? What I think you'll run in to in the end is that situation where people bot/PL/whatever alts for the prog system and then turn them into their mains later on pending raid/guild situations. The only good thing I can see in terms of raid/guild is if you start losing healers or something a dps could re-roll healer and get a boost towards drops (retain dkp or something) so they can re-gear quickly - pending guild/raid rules etc etc.

    In the end it just seems troublesome. Both to players/guilds and for the Pants team. You guys will have to constantly keep yet another game aspect balanced - this might be a good xpac feature though. We want Pantheon to stand out and have new features, but not at the cost of extra problems at launch, constant balance changes, or launch delay. Those things can hurt how fun a game is and thus impact building the player base when the game launches as well as growing/keeping the population.


    This post was edited by tanwedar at December 7, 2016 1:08 PM PST
    • 2886 posts
    December 7, 2016 4:00 PM PST

    Do we know for sure that we'd lose the gear on the toon that is retired? There's a difference between retiring and being vaporized lol. Why not allow gear to be passed on to their children like an heirloom sorta thing?

    • 334 posts
    December 10, 2016 12:50 PM PST

    I wish we could get more info on this sytem. Hearing it mentioned in the stream makes me nervous. It's neat in concept, but there are so many valid concerns mentioned in this thread that give me doubt about its actual implementation. If the perks are not something obtainable by the original character through some means, I think it should be left out.

    Plus, I don't necessarily want any connection between my alts and my main. They deserve their own stories and origins, not to be restricted to being my main's offspring or having to be connected in any way at all other than being created on my account.

    • 2886 posts
    December 10, 2016 1:03 PM PST

    Sicario said:

    I wish we could get more info on this sytem. Hearing it mentioned in the stream makes me nervous. It's neat in concept, but there are so many valid concerns mentioned in this thread that give me doubt about its actual implementation. If the perks are not something obtainable by the original character through some means, I think it should be left out.

    Plus, I don't necessarily want any connection between my alts and my main. They deserve their own stories and origins, not to be restricted to being my main's offspring or having to be connected in any way at all other than being created on my account.

    Agreed. I'm trying not to think about it too much lol. If anything, the little bit they said about it in the stream only added to the confusion. I suppose it's just too early to really go into exact detail :(

    • 9115 posts
    December 10, 2016 5:10 PM PST

    Sicario said:

    I wish we could get more info on this sytem. Hearing it mentioned in the stream makes me nervous. It's neat in concept, but there are so many valid concerns mentioned in this thread that give me doubt about its actual implementation. If the perks are not something obtainable by the original character through some means, I think it should be left out.

    Plus, I don't necessarily want any connection between my alts and my main. They deserve their own stories and origins, not to be restricted to being my main's offspring or having to be connected in any way at all other than being created on my account.

    This is one of the systems that is just too early in development to give more details on, it is not on the top of our list right now as we have a few big things to implement and get right for testing but it is a very interesting system that can be used to fix a number of common MMORPG issues lie bottleneck top end content, ghost town low top mid levels/cities, low to mid groups hard to find, unused paths to max level with horizontal progression and picking one path are just a few problems this can mitigate/resolve but we have multiple systems, features and mechanics in mind to work with the Progeny system and they would all be finely tuned to work together, this wouldn't just be a throw together system for the sake of it, it can solve a few very big MMORPG problems and if wedecidee to go ahead with it, it will be tweaked to work well in the game, not against it :)

    Quote from my previous reply on this subject:

    "I am speaking very generally here for everyone that reads this post, so please do not take offense to my words but I will try and help you understand our position a bit better if I can.

     

    I understand your thoughts but these are premature fears that a lot of people have, we have given a small description of what we would like the system to be but as with anything, it is not set in stone, it is just an idea that we had to help keep low to mid game populated and fun but systems like this don't get thrown in without thought, we have a fine balance in mind for this system and how it works with the rest of the world and all of the systems, mechanics, and features we have included (some of which you folks still have not heard about), if there are any issues with it in testing, if we decide to go with it, it would be altered or removed but I just hope people are not against it strictly due to the idea that if someone makes the ultimate sacrifice to retire their character and then start fresh as that character's son or daughter with a very small benefit to doing so, just because they don't want to give up their main character but also don't want to miss out on the small benefit, which is what I have been hearing a lot.

    Not everything is going to be equal in-game, we will balance things to the best of our ability but in cases like this, the small benefit would be very much deserved, even if it is a small % exp gain to crafting (if your mother/father was a master crafter, for example) as they would have had that ability/skill in their bloodline, it may even help unlock some tougher recipes or blueprints earlier than normal but again, that person would have already unlocked them the first time around the hard way, so this should not be an issue for an outsider who is worried they are missing out, they have the option to retire their characters for similar benefits too.

    For RP purposes, those players will be unlikely to retire their main character but it wouldn't matter anyway, as we can turn the Progeny system off or disable it on the RP servers, same with PvP servers, we could even just dedicate a few main PvE servers to Progeny, all of these details are still being discussed, but to pass judgement on this system with such little information is not only a waste of time, it tarnishes the entire system with a negative incantation that other read and instantly dislike which can render a very interesting and immersive mechanic unwanted without it even being explained, this system in unison with other systems/ features and mechanics that we have in mind, can solve a lot of problems that MMORPGs have today with bottlenecking top end grinds, ghost town low to mid level gameplay, hard to get groups etc. it is ok to express concern but it would be better to wait until we actually release our full intentions and explain the system in full before judging it, though.

    Please don't think this is directly targeting you either my friend, I really need this message to get out to everyone reading as the Progeny gets a bad name and no one actually knows what we have planned for it yet, so once we release those details feel free to judge and criticise but until then, I ask that you all please keep an opened mind as we don't implement things like this without thinking them through first."

    • 2 posts
    December 10, 2016 6:04 PM PST

    I'm very leary towards this Progeny system without knowing what the end game goal is?  Will it restrict how many times you can sacrifice yourself?  What benefits are there to this system?  I would like to see what the devs train of thought is behind this system and why it's a must.  Having played tons of MMO since their early inception, there is one tool from EQ2 that I felt should be borrowed for this game and it would be the mentoring system.  I really loved introducing my friends to their game and leveling with them, even though I was already at max level, and still working on my own alternate advancement system while they were learning their own class.  Yes I believe the penelty was not quite as harsh as it should have been when mentoring, often times I felt way too overpowered for the scaling of myself to the level of the mobs, however it was still a great way to keep people playing together in lower content.

    • 74 posts
    December 10, 2016 7:40 PM PST

    Kilsin said:
    I just hope people are not against it strictly due to the idea that if someone makes the ultimate sacrifice to retire their character and then start fresh as that character's son or daughter with a very small benefit to doing so, just because they don't want to give up their main character but also don't want to miss out on the small benefit, which is what I have been hearing a lot.

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features

    Carry on your legacy with progeny—retire a character and have his or her child resume the adventure

    The only request is that given this information, consider the impact it has on revolving guild roster/raid holes it could potentially create.

    I know you guys are thinking of these things because very few characters/players exist in a vacuum. 

    • Just consider, your main or secondary tank decides to "reroll" (for lack of better terms) How is this going to impact a guild that spent a considerable amount of time working to gear this person which may impact other's ability to complete content (missing a key tank or tanks)? Hand off gear assuming it's tradable to a second or third tank? Hang onto it until caught back up? This decision can affect many people indirectly and may not be as simple as a singular person's decision to use a retirement system. If the bonuses are good enough to warrant retiring, wouldn't you want your main tank(s) to have these bonuses if those bonuses include combat effectiveness?
    • What if your raid leader wishes to reroll and now can't be present because they're having to level back up? Should they be forced to not participate in this system from the pressure it'll put on others not maybe being able to do some content while they're gone? Sure others can step in to fill that role, but this key person now can sit out while their friends raid because they're leveling back up in a low level zone. Again, others could be affected by one person's decision.

    • You build a raid/roster setup and it's based pretty close to the number of people needed for the content, buffer for people who may not be on, etc. You have a number of a key classes looking to use the progeny mechanic, say a bulk of your healers, it's going to be a political headache denying people when they can do this, having to rotate people so it's more staggered, having to pit crew them back up, etc otherwise you could greatly impact a guild's ability to do things as people are missing while catching up.

    This is as much as a micro (per player) thing as it is a macro (guild, friends, community, etc) thing. Some players who don't wish to retire their character may find themselves indirectly affected by those who do.

    I know you can't answer the bullet points above, but just consider them in desiging said system is all I ask and I know it's too early to say either way if they have been considered.

    This is not trying to "poo poo" the system, rather these are legit and clearly described concern points based on wording such as "retiring a character" that has been provided through official means (see feature list). If this is considered speculation, the term retiring should be changed since that indicates the person retiring at least for a time cannot participate in things they previously could.

    Concern does not equal dismissing a system. These two things should not be confused. Concerns are things that can be alleviated when said system is tested and proven incorrect, but concerns can also be verified when said systems are tested. They're simply things that will be watched and doesn't mean a system is good or bad until verified in either way. By saying a concern causes other people to dismiss a system (or give it a bad rep) is to confuse concern and dismissing. I'm going in open minded and hoping my concerns are proven wrong through testing or to put plans in place to address via policy, recruitment, etc. 

    This system has ripple/butteryfly affects beyond a single person's decision to retire their character is simply the point I'm making. I know you get that because by one person retiring, it repopulates a lower level zone and a lower level person now could have somebody to group with in a positive way, but it also affects their guild in possibly negative ways by losing this person at least for a duration.

    Another thought is whether a newly minted max character should get the same bonuses as a much older/more geared character. The incentive to start over could be much more difficult for a more geared/older character than one with less to lose and just recently hit max level. If the bonuses are small, a newly minted max character has less to lose and impacts less people by doing so than a more veteran/geared character who is retiring for said small bonuses. Think of it as a "wisdom" amount passed on.

    I also get that it's very early stages and things are subject to change, concerns could be proven moot, or concerns could be proven valid. Only time and testing will tell, but those concerns remain with me until more information and/or testing is done and every right to have those concerns based on the constructive and detailed points above.

    Please don't confuse this post as me dismissing Progeny, rather I have what I feel are valid concerns that I hope is proven unfounded through testing. If proven true, I'll just need to plan accordingly (policies, pit crews, etc) to address those concerns the best I can for my guild members so they're not negatively affected. I'm going into it open minded in general as I think the point of the system does try to address something seen in many games, new people not finding groups as easily and ghost town zones.


    This post was edited by spyderoptik at December 10, 2016 7:40 PM PST
    • 9115 posts
    December 11, 2016 1:48 AM PST

    spyderoptik said:

    Kilsin said:
    I just hope people are not against it strictly due to the idea that if someone makes the ultimate sacrifice to retire their character and then start fresh as that character's son or daughter with a very small benefit to doing so, just because they don't want to give up their main character but also don't want to miss out on the small benefit, which is what I have been hearing a lot.

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features

    Carry on your legacy with progeny—retire a character and have his or her child resume the adventure

    The only request is that given this information, consider the impact it has on revolving guild roster/raid holes it could potentially create.

    I know you guys are thinking of these things because very few characters/players exist in a vacuum. 

    • Just consider, your main or secondary tank decides to "reroll" (for lack of better terms) How is this going to impact a guild that spent a considerable amount of time working to gear this person which may impact other's ability to complete content (missing a key tank or tanks)? Hand off gear assuming it's tradable to a second or third tank? Hang onto it until caught back up? This decision can affect many people indirectly and may not be as simple as a singular person's decision to use a retirement system. If the bonuses are good enough to warrant retiring, wouldn't you want your main tank(s) to have these bonuses if those bonuses include combat effectiveness?
    • What if your raid leader wishes to reroll and now can't be present because they're having to level back up? Should they be forced to not participate in this system from the pressure it'll put on others not maybe being able to do some content while they're gone? Sure others can step in to fill that role, but this key person now can sit out while their friends raid because they're leveling back up in a low level zone. Again, others could be affected by one person's decision.

    • You build a raid/roster setup and it's based pretty close to the number of people needed for the content, buffer for people who may not be on, etc. You have a number of a key classes looking to use the progeny mechanic, say a bulk of your healers, it's going to be a political headache denying people when they can do this, having to rotate people so it's more staggered, having to pit crew them back up, etc otherwise you could greatly impact a guild's ability to do things as people are missing while catching up.

    This is as much as a micro (per player) thing as it is a macro (guild, friends, community, etc) thing. Some players who don't wish to retire their character may find themselves indirectly affected by those who do.

    I know you can't answer the bullet points above, but just consider them in desiging said system is all I ask and I know it's too early to say either way if they have been considered.

    This is not trying to "poo poo" the system, rather these are legit and clearly described concern points based on wording such as "retiring a character" that has been provided through official means (see feature list). If this is considered speculation, the term retiring should be changed since that indicates the person retiring at least for a time cannot participate in things they previously could.

    Concern does not equal dismissing a system. These two things should not be confused. Concerns are things that can be alleviated when said system is tested and proven incorrect, but concerns can also be verified when said systems are tested. They're simply things that will be watched and doesn't mean a system is good or bad until verified in either way. By saying a concern causes other people to dismiss a system (or give it a bad rep) is to confuse concern and dismissing. I'm going in open minded and hoping my concerns are proven wrong through testing or to put plans in place to address via policy, recruitment, etc. 

    This system has ripple/butteryfly affects beyond a single person's decision to retire their character is simply the point I'm making. I know you get that because by one person retiring, it repopulates a lower level zone and a lower level person now could have somebody to group with in a positive way, but it also affects their guild in possibly negative ways by losing this person at least for a duration.

    Another thought is whether a newly minted max character should get the same bonuses as a much older/more geared character. The incentive to start over could be much more difficult for a more geared/older character than one with less to lose and just recently hit max level. If the bonuses are small, a newly minted max character has less to lose and impacts less people by doing so than a more veteran/geared character who is retiring for said small bonuses. Think of it as a "wisdom" amount passed on.

    I also get that it's very early stages and things are subject to change, concerns could be proven moot, or concerns could be proven valid. Only time and testing will tell, but those concerns remain with me until more information and/or testing is done and every right to have those concerns based on the constructive and detailed points above.

    Please don't confuse this post as me dismissing Progeny, rather I have what I feel are valid concerns that I hope is proven unfounded through testing. If proven true, I'll just need to plan accordingly (policies, pit crews, etc) to address those concerns the best I can for my guild members so they're not negatively affected. I'm going into it open minded in general as I think the point of the system does try to address something seen in many games, new people not finding groups as easily and ghost town zones.

    For the record, I wasn't specifically speaking to you or any single person, my friend, I have to speak in very general terms for everyone that comes along and reads this thread 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year from now and for some who may have never heard anything about the Progeny system but are immediately turned off it from all of the negative discussion going on on what impacts it "may" have, I just want people to wait until we can give them enough details and information to make a reasonable and educated decision, that is all.

    To answer the guild question, as that is something close to my heart as well being a guild and raid leader, it would be completely up to the guild, a Progeny ban could be put in place for all the members on the raiding roster and when the time was right, the guild could Progeny together or you could level alts to take the place of your progeny mains prior to taking the plunge or you could ignore it completely and happily live your life on your mains without being affected by others using the Progeny system etc. they are three of many ways to mitigate it but as I said, there are not enough details to make an educated decision for or against this system just yet, I was skeptical at first for many of the same reasons but actually think it would benefit the game much more than it would affect it in any negative way.

    Once we have more information we will be able to talk more openly about it with you all and you will be able to better equip yourself with the right information and judge it properly and I really look forward to that. :)

    • 690 posts
    December 11, 2016 11:34 AM PST

    In response to Spyder's post:

    You have a concern that your important guildies will take advantage of the progeny system. It could certainly be detrimental to your guild if the wrong person "retires", especially if in Pantheon, gear and/or niche skill turn out to be particularly important.

    However, I feel this is no different than a concern that your important guildie no longer wishes to play his/her character, or play in your guild, for ANY other reason.

    • They could want to focus on their alt because they are simply done with their main
    • They could be done with Pantheon for a while 
    • They could be tired of raiding with your guild, ETC

    At the end of the day, if someone chooses to retire their main character forever, they are in theory completely aware of the choice they are making. They are aware they will no longer be able to raid with that character and their guildies will no longer be able to raid with them. Yet, if they progeny, they choose to do so ANYWAY. Unless your former guildie is doing it for some raid-related benefit, he/she is simply showing a lack of attachment to their main and your guild, which probably would have resulted in them ignoring their raid duties eventually anyways.

    If someone just leaves your guild for some reason, It's harsh to you, but what do you have in place to deal with that issue? Do you have an agreement with another guild to share important roles in emergencies? Do you level up your alts or redouble your efforts to recruit? Maybe you punish the leaver for their lack of enthusiasm some how, up to and including a perma ban from your guild.

    It's the same, IMO, with progeny.