I'm curious to learn more about this. Its sounds like something pretty different. Personally I like the idea of being "Meathead VI" but i would expect certain skills to level faster e.g if the Meaathead line were a family of crafters, since it is 'in their blood' for generation they should be skilling up much much faster upto 50%> Assume one is on the third generation they have levelled it twice already!
Lets think about what would motivate a player to do it a third time! Well... ultra rare crafting capabilities that come from generations of practice. This then ties the progeny system in nicely with the player economy and the longevity of the game. Becuase you can be sure by the time someone has had 4 generations of mastercrafting meatheads the game is going to have been out quite a while... Then suddenly bam someone discovers something completely new in Pantheon.
Now that would be a true terminus world first!
Additionally i hear the raid masters getting very worried, and i understand. From my point of view as someone thoroughly neutral on raiding, id happily hit max lvl then go on a procreation spree (did the box cover women from the original EQ ever master interdimensional travel and end up in terminus?) to create mini me's.
Id be quite content being a third generation toon with minimal raid experience while the tops guilds are downing the top bosses for a first time. In EQ the bit I enjoyed the most was lvl1-55. Though it would be nice if the character was not just deleted. Perhaps becoming incapable of combat instead? Progeny needs realism as well.
Bring on Progeny.
Liav said:I don't consider rewarding people with permanent combat advantages for arbitrary tasks to be acceptable, it's pretty simple.
Raiders deserve the best gear because it is the logical highest tier of gameplay. Giving away combat advantages for things as arbitrary as repeating the leveling process a second time just makes no sense to me.
We have no idea what the perks will be. As long as it's not a combat advantage, I don't care. If the level cap is 50 and you need to utilize the Progeny system to get the maximum potential out of your character, you might as well just make the level cap 100 and skip the gimmicky stuff.
I guess I have always taken issue with the idea that raiders *deserve* the best gear because it is the highest tier of gameplay. I think the best gear/BiS stuff should be spread out across a few different types of endgame and that the notion that raids are the be all end all of difficulty is kind of...odd. I'd contend that a well designed encounter for 6-8 players can be just as if not more difficult than a raid of 40+ people. There are more ways/it's much easier to tune small encounters than trying to account for all the variables of 40+. Should raiders see 60-70% of the best gear? Absolutely.
I think the general idea I have always seen is that large amounts of time invested is deserving of reward, so why not leveling all over again for minor bonuses should someone feel inclined? Because anyone *can* do it? Would giving someone who is leveling again something like a bonus 10 starting stat points really be the end of the world?
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
Way too early to tell. Would love to revisit this topic when there is more information available so that I could make an accurate assessment. As it stands now, we have this:
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
That's a pretty broad description of how it's going to work. If certain abilities are able to be retained, I would imagine that the 'progeny' would also have to be the same class as the original character. If that's the case, would it reset all of they quests they completed? If not, it would become increasingly more difficult for each future generation to level as the amount of available quests would continue to diminish. If the quests are reset, I can see how being able to loot multiple rewards from advanced quest lines as being pretty beneficial. Let's say there is a high end quest (not epic scale but still a high end quest) where a warrior has to choose between a really good sword or shield. Let's say the parent warrior chose the sword, and the 'progeny' opts for the shield. Now they get both rewards.
I remember in EQOA where you had the option to choose between multiple epic weapons. That would be pretty awesome if there was a way for a single character to have multiple epic weapons by completing the quest on both the parent and progeny. As cool as that sounds though, I would imagine it would contradict "(but not to the point that it unbalances things)."
It's a slippery slope when you get into all of this. Hopefully "etc." includes faction, spell upgrades (they have to be re-learned at the appropriate level, but if the parent had a master quality taunt, the progeny should have the master version as well as soon as they learn taunt) and maybe even access keys. Gaining access to certain zones or content can be really time consuming/redundant and I wouldn't want to have to repeat those kind of tasks every time I spawn a newer generation character through progeny.
I think the progeny system has a lot of potential benefits for both the community and the replay value of the game. I also see potential pitfalls when it comes to how it would be balanced. Is it meant to be a form of progression? If the progeny are going to be "noticeably" better I would view that as a form of progression. So when someone finally get's to level 50, they'll have to make a tough decision on which progression path to take; exploring all of the high-end content that is designed for max level, or utilizing the progeny system. Tough decision indeed, but it will be a whole easier to make that determination when we truly understand what exactly we would have to gain or lose when partaking in the system.
I think if AA's are implemented in the future, that would add a very interesting dynamic to how progeny could work. The progeny could retain all of the AA's that were learned from the parent (can implement a level requirement on certain abilities if needed) while also trying to learn new ones as they relevel. It's a great concept and I can see the demand for progeny players to be really high when groups are looking to fill up their slots. On the other hand though, progeny players may choose to only group with other progeny players as often as possible for maximum efficiency. Otherwise they would get the feeling that they are "carrying" their group. Let's say the standard group size is 5 people, and the progeny players are about 20% stronger than the brand new characters. By forming a group of 5 progeny players you would essentially be adding a 6'th player to your group.
Looking forward to more information on this as soon as it's available.
If progeny works anything like real life a 1% combat advantage...intelligence advantage or pretty much any advantage you can think could be realistic. Think about this....athlete a marries athlete b...has child c....that offspring would most likely have higher aptitude for sports..... Then that child grows up and gets married to another athlete.... With selective breeding you can raise your traits and aptitude...just saying.
Edited because autocorrect strikes again
I think we're overthinking all of this. Progeny system is fine with literally any bonus as long as the caps for an individual character are uniform. Personally I'd just introduce an AA system that begins at max level, then allow you to just retire the character and spend exp proportional to what you spent to level it into AAs at level 1. Max level character is the same but the levelling process is expedited by having AA stats earlier.
Add to that certain non-story mode obtained zone unlocks (i.e. you make this key in a side questline to unlock dungeon backdoor) can be passed down hereditarily (such that you don't need to reobtain key from questline, redoing quest just makes redundant key) and you're good to go.
Maybe you have new portraits for progeny and bam, done. Literally all of that is enticing in one way or another over making a brand new character and none of it requires progeny. Hell I'd think such a system would be pretty great.
Jimmayus said:I think we're overthinking all of this. Progeny system is fine with literally any bonus as long as the caps for an individual character are uniform. Personally I'd just introduce an AA system that begins at max level, then allow you to just retire the character and spend exp proportional to what you spent to level it into AAs at level 1. Max level character is the same but the levelling process is expedited by having AA stats earlier.
Add to that certain non-story mode obtained zone unlocks (i.e. you make this key in a side questline to unlock dungeon backdoor) can be passed down hereditarily (such that you don't need to reobtain key from questline, redoing quest just makes redundant key) and you're good to go.
Maybe you have new portraits for progeny and bam, done. Literally all of that is enticing in one way or another over making a brand new character and none of it requires progeny. Hell I'd think such a system would be pretty great.
I would be okay with this implementation. I think it's a pretty great idea, actually.
Iksar said:I guess I have always taken issue with the idea that raiders *deserve* the best gear because it is the highest tier of gameplay. I think the best gear/BiS stuff should be spread out across a few different types of endgame and that the notion that raids are the be all end all of difficulty is kind of...odd. I'd contend that a well designed encounter for 6-8 players can be just as if not more difficult than a raid of 40+ people. There are more ways/it's much easier to tune small encounters than trying to account for all the variables of 40+. Should raiders see 60-70% of the best gear? Absolutely.
While I agree that content can be made that is equally challenging for 40 people as it is for 6, 6 man content is still far ahead in terms of availability. Getting 6 competent players together is much simpler than getting 24+ competent players together.
There are also practical limits on design complexity with small amounts of players. There's a limited number of roles you can give 6 players to accomplish to succeed in an encounter compared to 24+. The cooperation element and stakes are almost always higher with raid content.
Iksar said:
I think the general idea I have always seen is that large amounts of time invested is deserving of reward, so why not leveling all over again for minor bonuses should someone feel inclined? Because anyone *can* do it? Would giving someone who is leveling again something like a bonus 10 starting stat points really be the end of the world?
Yes. Investing time is not equivalent to challenge.
Anyone can hit max level twice given enough time. Not everyone can succeed in the highest end raid content. Comparing the two just makes no sense.
Liav said:While I agree that content can be made that is equally challenging for 40 people as it is for 6, 6 man content is still far ahead in terms of availability. Getting 6 competent players together is much simpler than getting 24+ competent players together.
There are also practical limits on design complexity with small amounts of players. There's a limited number of roles you can give 6 players to accomplish to succeed in an encounter compared to 24+. The cooperation element and stakes are almost always higher with raid content.
...
Yes. Investing time is not equivalent to challenge.
Anyone can hit max level twice given enough time. Not everyone can succeed in the highest end raid content. Comparing the two just makes no sense.
Yes, however a well tuned and difficult 6 man boss encounter can be punishingly hard and require all six players to be on top of their game respectively. When you have the large numbers for raiding, there tends to be much more leeway and foregiveness of mistakes made by members. It is not uncommon to see guilds selling out slots in a raid to make money which implies there tends to be plenty of room for error. In my personal experience the hardest part of raiding is often just getting the bodies together, watching an explanation video, and a handful of hours getting the dance right. But who knows, maybe they will make the raid bosses dynamic so that it isn't just the same song and dance of Phase 1, Phase 2, etc where you know what happens and when.
I guess all I am saying is I think there is plenty of room for top end content/gear to be outside of raids. Be it incredibly difficult quests that have to be solo'd to small groups to whatever else. Difficulty can be found anywhere with a little thought and creativity. But this all feels terribly off-topic.
As for the progeny system, we just have to wait and see what they have in store for us before complaining or cheering. I'm okay with small boons for the time investment leveling again, others are not. Let's see what they have in store.
I can never agree with Liav re: raiding being the sole purveyor of the best gear. I believe this to be precisely the reason FFXIV's non-raid content is considered a joke, why mythic+ dungeons are considered a success in wow, and why FFXI is to this day one of the best games ever in terms of delivering a variety of content.
I believe putting all the best rewards behind raiding creates a stigma within the community that nothing but the latest raid is the most important thing to be doing. This attitude permeates player decisions, i.e. people will begin to take shortcuts through the "secondary" content because why care about anything except the raid. This trickles down even into levelling. I just think it's a fundamentally poisonous mentality to view endgame content with.
The idea of 'raids are the best because they are the most difficult' is not even a truism within the community: FFXIV's 24-man raids are easy compared to their 8-man raids and thus provide weaker gear. Even WoW agrees with this system, it's why they've produced things like Karazkhan and voiced a desire to do larger, large scale dungeons. I really, really hope the Pantheon devs do not turn into yet another raid-a-thon as the only thing to do, it's so uncreative and limiting.
Don't agree either, I never found raiding very challanging, stand here, move here, click spells for 15 minutes. The only challange was for the person/people managing it. I think a balanced combination, of quests, solo encounters, group encounters, and raids should all offer some of the best items. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of this progeny thing, i just wish it was more of a continuation of my characters development, instead of just killing him off.
Honestly, after thinking about it I am find with the progeny system giving something superior to a character that hasn't been "retired". I can't go off what games have been doing as a benchmark because after Vanilla WoW, I really haven't had a good time in MMOs. Why should I use those games as the benchmark? I am all for change, since what is out there right now isn't working for me.
Can we please just drop the idea that raiders "deserve" the best rewards. Raiding is just a concept. You can put a label "raid" on anything. Like a timed event of gathering flowers by 100 people, which eventually kills a big bad flower hating boss(based on numer of flowers gathered). Its only hardest if the game is implemented to make raiding the only and the hardest endgame. Raiding on its own is not the hardest part of the game and raiders have no "right" to best or any rewards. If alternate endgame path is suggested, it usually means that time/risk/reward would be balanced to other endgame options (ex. raiding) and hence would deserve comparable rewards. These rewards may not come in same or equivalent gear, they may be rewarded in stats or other valuable things in the game. But at the end those rewards should be of equal value.
For the love of god, devs, find a way to create multiple end game paths that have rewards of equivalent values and allow a balanced options for people to take. Even raiders would benefit from this.
moszis said:Can we please just drop the idea that raiders "deserve" the best rewards. Raiding is just a concept. You can put a label "raid" on anything. Like a timed event of gathering flowers by 100 people, which eventually kills a big bad flower hating boss(based on numer of flowers gathered). Its only hardest if the game is implemented to make raiding the only and the hardest endgame. Raiding on its own is not the hardest part of the game and raiders have no "right" to best or any rewards. If alternate endgame path is suggested, it usually means that time/risk/reward would be balanced to other endgame options (ex. raiding) and hence would deserve comparable rewards. These rewards may not come in same or equivalent gear, they may be rewarded in stats or other valuable things in the game. But at the end those rewards should be of equal value.
For the love of god, devs, find a way to create multiple end game paths that have rewards of equivalent values and allow a balanced options for people to take. Even raiders would benefit from this.
There is an inherently greater risk when it comes to raid content compared to group content.
End-game raiding has always been at the top of the food chain when it comes to progression.
And the more people it's shared with, the greater the sense of accomplishment!
I'm fine with there being multiple facets of end-game content, but at the end of the day, when it comes to Progression, raiding is going to be the final step. There may be instances where the hardest group content is more technically difficult than some of the easier raid content, and that's fine. You know what isn't fine though?
"Man, I'm so glad my entire guild beat all of the raid content in the game. Now we can finally progress through that group dungeon!"
Now something like this might be acceptable very rarely, but it would be the exception, not the norm.
"Man, I'm so glad my entire guild beat all of the raid content in the game. Now we can finally progress through that group dungeon!"
I never heard anyone say ohh i finished all that group content now I can raid. They are completely independent experiences. I did not do every group dungeon before I started raiding, in fact in EQ I was raiding content before I could even take on some group dungeons, I don't understand this argument.
I like Raids and think the idea of bringing a large group together to take on a task is pretty cool, but I don't see why all the best gear has to come from raids. I think some should, but not everything, just like I don't think all the best gear should be crafted or quested. It should be balanced, I don't want an epic quest for every peice of gear on my character, and I don't want to raid for every peice of top gear.
You can make solo/group content even more difficult than raid content. As a mage getting the pegasus cloak and charred something or other were the 2 items I never never got for my epic and they were both solo mobs. All the raid content was taken care of pretty easily.
This is why I'm warming up to progeny it's just another method off attaining a stronger character. I just really hope they go more of a "shining force" route than this kill off character route and find a way to regress my character in order to become stronger instead of having to play a brand new character.
oneADseven said:moszis said:Can we please just drop the idea that raiders "deserve" the best rewards. Raiding is just a concept. You can put a label "raid" on anything. Like a timed event of gathering flowers by 100 people, which eventually kills a big bad flower hating boss(based on numer of flowers gathered). Its only hardest if the game is implemented to make raiding the only and the hardest endgame. Raiding on its own is not the hardest part of the game and raiders have no "right" to best or any rewards. If alternate endgame path is suggested, it usually means that time/risk/reward would be balanced to other endgame options (ex. raiding) and hence would deserve comparable rewards. These rewards may not come in same or equivalent gear, they may be rewarded in stats or other valuable things in the game. But at the end those rewards should be of equal value.
For the love of god, devs, find a way to create multiple end game paths that have rewards of equivalent values and allow a balanced options for people to take. Even raiders would benefit from this.
- An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
There is an inherently greater risk when it comes to raid content compared to group content.
- A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
End-game raiding has always been at the top of the food chain when it comes to progression.
- A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
And the more people it's shared with, the greater the sense of accomplishment!
I'm fine with there being multiple facets of end-game content, but at the end of the day, when it comes to Progression, raiding is going to be the final step. There may be instances where the hardest group content is more technically difficult than some of the easier raid content, and that's fine. You know what isn't fine though?
"Man, I'm so glad my entire guild beat all of the raid content in the game. Now we can finally progress through that group dungeon!"
Now something like this might be acceptable very rarely, but it would be the exception, not the norm.
I understand and agree with what mass is saying. I understand VR is building a MMORPG not a battle areana, so why would a Raid be the end all to beat all, seems to me the Role Play, or the Story should.
Who's to say a raiders 4 hour raid and possable 1 or 2 deaths with a Cleric standing there is a greater risk than a role player's or crafters weeks of collecting and training and camping multiple mobs that could have included countless deaths? 40 ganging up on one boss is simply simply a matter of relitive numbers of 20 on a mob half as bad, or 10 on one 1/4 the size.
Same with this, a 4 hour raid is trivial compared to a epic type quest. Say one that requires a 3rd generation crafter to complete. Tell me that's not "earned" compared to one that PL's through to level 50 then gangs up on a boss with 40 others.
Never been much for raiding, never understood the rush to "END"game, always thought those that don't care for the RPG in a MMORPG just dident make sence.
First, these are my opinions on what might be neat. I don't have an opinion on the system as a whole yet as I do know anything about the system yet other then the General possible retirement of a max lvl char for a fresh start. So here is my opinion on what I think might work with it.
Ok so again I don't have an opinion for or against the progeny system yet as I know too little about it. As someone who has hated leveling for many many years I can say I'm actually looking forward to seeing and hearing the ideas around this system. My first thoughts where just like many here with "No" "I hate it" "It sounds terrible", but the more I think about it the more I think I might like it. Can't wait to see what VR does with it, and hoping to see some more information on it this year.
All of this talk about raiding > all is a bit off the topic of the thread. I personally have done world first raiding in EQ and Vanilla WoW. Guess what I never did because it was too hard and too long to me? Do the Coldain Prayer Shawl quest in EQ. To me, the dedication and time that was spent to complete that question was much greater than any raid to me.
What I am getting at is that difficulty, progression, and accomplishment is all in the eye of the beholder. There is nothing that says raids are the end-all-be-all of progression because to me it isn't.
I am all for having multiple BiS items being achieved in multiple ways. Just keep an open mind about other types of gameplay.
Most likely I will probably end up doing the Progeny just because it is something new that I haven't done before. I think the possibilities are endless for what can open up with it.
Gnog said: The sidetrack discussion of raiding in this thread is just forum lawyering by monomaniacal raiders. You plan to raid, and so you are advocating for a loot system that puts raiding at the top of every table. But any experienced MMO player knows that large-scale raiding can be easy or difficult depending on the design, as can be true of group content. I agree that putting all the best loot in raid encounters has a toxic effect on the other content the game offers and, overall, makes the game feel more like a theme park. There seems to be no problem with having raid-quality loot be craftable (using rare mats or whatever) or droppable as an ultra rare drop in group content. Why would raiders complain if there are multiple ways to get BiS loot, so long as raiding is the most direct route? What is this thread about again? Oh right, Progeny. Jimmayus's idea is cool.
I've actually been in favor of a system that has ultra rare drops from group content that are near raid-quality and have suggested such on numerous posts. I've also said that I'm fine with multiple BiS pieces being obtainable outside of raiding.
Not sure why anybody is being labeled monomaniacal though. I plan on raiding, yes, but I also plan on crafting, grouping, releveling through progeny, and playing through as many other facets of the game as possible. I want ALL avenues to be enjoyable and rewarding.
Historically though, on average, the hardest raid content in an MMO will be more difficult than the hardest group content. There are multiple tenets for this game that seem to set a pretty solid foundation that progression and difficulty will be core aspects of a rewarding experience.
EQ2 actually did a pretty good job with incorporating high-level group content into end-game. I remember in T5 there was a hard-mode permafrost dungeon that came out. You could only bring 1 group in, but some of the bosses were designed for 2 groups. It was a great example of how non-raid content can still be considered end-game. It was done again later with Nektropos Castle.
When it comes to Progeny, I would also love to see Jimmayus' idea come into fruition. I have been advocating for AA's on launch for awhile now. It's a great way to encourage people to experience as much content as possible and would provide a great replay value for the game. Personally I like to invest all of my time into a single character rather than splitting it 70/30 between my main and an alt. The progeny system could be a means to that end. I wouldn't mind seeing 5 branches of AA's per class, and with each future generation, you unlock a new branch. It'd be pretty time consuming but with each future generation of your character you'd also be getting noticeably stronger and the grind wouldn't be quite as bad as the last one. I love the idea of long term and non-linear progression. I will always be a die-hard raider at heart, but would LOVE for there to be an epic journey through the game before raiding even begins.
Folks, we have several topics on raiding that are still very active, so please take the raiding discussion over to one of them, the Progeny system is very different and will not impact raiding if the guilds/guild leaders don't let it or work with it/around it, please bring this back onto the topic of Progeny.
This sounds like an interesting concept, but I think there should be requirements on how old a toon must be before he can be retired? Maybe something like 150 days game time (3600 hours). You shouldn't be able to retire a toon that isnt very old. I know that seems like a long time but people will leave toons logged in 24x7 to "age" them. Or maybe just a blanket "eligible after 6 months have passed since toon was created.