The point was more a matter that this system leads to "active" roster turn-over rotation quicker than if a system of rerolling for bonuses didn't exist (which you describe) and is expected over time as people get bored and move on from the game, class, or whatnot.
To answer your questions, although it's early and won't know until specifics until more details are offered or through testing: Yes, potential policies are being discussed. Yes, potential pit crews/recruitment needs are being discussed. Yes, potential application requirements are being discussed. This way things are clearly spelled out as to what we expect of members and what they can expect of us.
I'm simply saying roster turnover will be accelerated beyond the normal ebbs and flows of population sticking with a game, class, guild etc.
Depending on the bonuses will largely dictate the turn over rate of catching people back up. It doesn't certainly mean they're done with the game or guild, depending on the mechanics, they may even play the same class only with these new bonuses moving forward. It really comes down to the bonuses and are they micro or macro bonuses (personal XP gain for micro or combat ability for macro as an example) and to what strength are the bonuses (to warrant wiping out a character).
If the bonuses are strong enough to warrant wiping out a character, they're going to be bonuses we'll be seeking and will have policies and catch up plans in place to address. If the bonuses are meh and they wipe out their main (instead of playing an alt), like you said they probably weren't reliable or would remain reliable for much longer anyways. This is certainly a valid point you make.
It's really somewhat speculation at this point and will just have to see how the bonuses work, the strength of them, etc.
spyderoptik said:The point was more a matter that this system leads to "active" roster turn-over rotation quicker than if a system of rerolling for bonuses didn't exist (which you describe) and is expected over time as people get bored and move on from the game, class, or whatnot.
To answer your questions, although it's early and won't know until specifics until more details are offered or through testing: Yes, potential policies are being discussed. Yes, potential pit crews/recruitment needs are being discussed. Yes, potential application requirements are being discussed. This way things are clearly spelled out as to what we expect of members and what they can expect of us.
I'm simply saying roster turnover will be accelerated beyond the normal ebbs and flows of population sticking with a game, class, guild etc.
Depending on the bonuses will largely dictate the turn over rate of catching people back up. It doesn't certainly mean they're done with the game or guild, depending on the mechanics, they may even play the same class only with these new bonuses moving forward. It really comes down to the bonuses and are they micro or macro bonuses (personal XP gain for micro or combat ability for macro as an example) and to what strength are the bonuses (to warrant wiping out a character).
If the bonuses are strong enough to warrant wiping out a character, they're going to be bonuses we'll be seeking and will have policies and catch up plans in place to address. If the bonuses are meh and they wipe out their main (instead of playing an alt), like you said they probably weren't reliable or would remain reliable for much longer anyways. This is certainly a valid point you make.
It's really somewhat speculation at this point and will just have to see how the bonuses work, the strength of them, etc.
Yeah, once we are able to release more info on this system I will be able to have a much more in-depth discussion with you about it and I look forward to it :)
DevonMeep said:While not to an unhealthy level mind you xD, I tend to get really attached to characters so the idea of it dying is'nt a thrilling prospect. And I would really dislike it if it was required to make more powerful characters.
It would never be forced onto you, ever. It would just be an option for those who wanted to make that sacrifice ;)
Kilsin said:It would never be forced onto you, ever. It would just be an option for those who wanted to make that sacrifice ;)
Realistically though, if there is a statistical advantage then it will practically be forced on anyone who wants to play at the highest level. Seems like elite players would be signing up for a miserable experience with a system like this that requires them to replay the same character through the same content X times to achieve maximum performance. Don't even get me started on alts.
I'm of the opinion that combat advantages should only be gained through combat.
Not trying to be cynical, I just can't see offering permanent statistical advantages as a reward for this system as being anything less than punishment for players who want to be the best of the best. It could become really boring, really fast. However, I think offering non-statistical advantages as a reward would be perfectly viable.
Maybe you get a cool exclusive appearance armor set. Maybe you get an illusion. Maybe you get a cool title.
Oh, I just thought of something cool. Every time you retire a character, you receive a permanent +Y% of permanent bonus experience earned for every character on your account. So many options that don't have to reward you with a permanent power advantage, just something cool and rewarding that doesn't necessarily affect your combat performance.
If it wasn't forced, I don't mind. However, most people who try to ''max out'' a character put a lot of work into it for best gear, max level, best spells best this and that...I would not want to be forced to age then die and lose it all. For an alt, I may do it once to see what it's like...if there were benefits to it. I may even do it for my main if it had benefits that you could only get by getting your progeny to go on for you as long as you could keep your gear, etc and use it if you were the same class. Farming the same gear again eithe rin dungeons or raids would suck.
Liav said:Kilsin said:It would never be forced onto you, ever. It would just be an option for those who wanted to make that sacrifice ;)
Realistically though, if there is a statistical advantage then it will practically be forced on anyone who wants to play at the highest level. Seems like elite players would be signing up for a miserable experience with a system like this that requires them to replay the same character through the same content X times to achieve maximum performance. Don't even get me started on alts.
I'm of the opinion that combat advantages should only be gained through combat.
Not trying to be cynical, I just can't see offering permanent statistical advantages as a reward for this system as being anything less than punishment for players who want to be the best of the best. It could become really boring, really fast. However, I think offering non-statistical advantages as a reward would be perfectly viable.
Maybe you get a cool exclusive appearance armor set. Maybe you get an illusion. Maybe you get a cool title.
Oh, I just thought of something cool. Every time you retire a character, you receive a permanent +Y% of permanent bonus experience earned for every character on your account. So many options that don't have to reward you with a permanent power advantage, just something cool and rewarding that doesn't necessarily affect your combat performance.
They are some good ideas, Liav (apart from the appearance gear lol) and I was just using my combat bonus as a fictional example, we have nothing in place for this at the moment, I just want people to give it a chance and wait for more details before hating on it or trying to find faults in something that isn't even near a completed state or fit to be judged. ;)
On the issue of highest level players and putting myself in that category when I play MMORPGs, as I know you are too and this would affect both of us, it is highly unlikely that any advantage we give will be the difference between dropping a raid mob or not, these bonuses, as stated in the brief description we give, will not be OP but for those who do min/max and want a very small bonus or possibly a % of something added, then they deserve it and for those who do not want to take the plunge, they miss out, I am a big fan of equality and everyone having a fair chance with everything in life but not everyone is equal and life isn't always fair, so not everyone will have the patience and stamina to grind from level 1 to 50 again, that would be the difference between an elite player/min maxer and everyone else.
It may sound harsh but my opinion is (not official stance) if you want it, take the risk and get it, if not, then bad luck, those players will miss out on a very small reward because they were not willing to sacrifice something in return but that reward will not be game breaking nor will it make guilds force you to do it to have the edge in a dungeon or raid, the reward will be very small and not always affect combat stats.
And again, when we have more information on this I will be able to talk in a lot more depth and explain it better but until then I can't really explain in a way that would make sense and as with anything, if the Progeny system just fails miserably, we will scrap it and it won't even make it out of testing, so there really no harm in just waiting for more information and giving it a go.
I think that there does absolutely need to be some in game benefit to the Progeny system, otherwise there won't be much point. If it makes it out of testing I plan to give it a go. I think being able to perhaps have a hybrid racial character where I could start in a different area and experience the game in a new way would be fun (VR has NOT said this is intended, I just think it would be cool). Yes, just making an alt would probably be the same thing, but the Progeny system intrigues me and I can imagine it being cool and different for many players.
Dying to trigger the progeny system - please no I hate having a character die. In fact one of my hobbies is getting a character to maximum level without dying and I've done it many times (never in FFXIV that game is dungeon-crazy).
A noticable but not unbalancing benefit to a new character once an existing character reaches maximum level, yes. Whether its slightly improved skills or attributes or gear or wider choice of race doesn't matter to me I've seen other games use all of these for progeny systems. Many people find leveling an "alt" though the same content tedious (personally I do not but I never claim to be sane). "Alts" are good for the game they keep people playing even if they don't want to raid and they produce new characters to keep the starter zones active and to give grouping partners for brand new players. The latter point is the most compelling of all - MMOs live or die based on new players!
An obvious example - long ago DAOC instituted the ability for 'alts" to start at a high level once a character on the account had maxed out. Didn't take all that long for them to deeply regret it because new players had fewer people to talk to in the starter zones or to group with.
This progeny system reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO). They have a reincarnation feature. You can reincarnate your max level char and you can start over with a new char. The new char can be a completely differenct class from the last life. You get to port over some special abilities over to the newly reincarnated char. But the new char will have a higher XP requirement to level up. In DDO, you can do this to try out all the different classes multiple times. And each time you reincarnate, you will gain abilities/bonuses from the previous life.
If pantheon does this, idk if it will cause the game to go unbalanced. I can just imagine the XP requirement if you wanted to try out all the classes. But hey! You will be one tough mother f***. :)
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
This isn't a tough call for me at all... redoing faction quests and level xps, likely in all the same areas. No thanks.
I think all its going to encourage is folks to go rush max level skipping all content, restart, rush max level skipping all content, and restart until max bonus is achieved and then play that character.
Just in response to Kil's ''small bonus/nothign major'', I don't think you know completitionist nutjobs like me. You could mail me a VR turd as long as it came in a nice box and I'd restart my char to get the small ''perk'' lol Well OK maybe not for a ...but you get my point. Even if a spell of your choosing could get 1% or 0.5% extra CHANCE at damage, I'd do it. As per some, I have problems, as per others, I have a lot of problems and as per me, I'm a completitionist ;p
patrick83 said:Just in response to Kil's ''small bonus/nothign major'', I don't think you know completitionist nutjobs like me. You could mail me a VR turd as long as it came in a nice box and I'd restart my char to get the small ''perk'' lol Well OK maybe not for a ...but you get my point. Even if a spell of your choosing could get 1% or 0.5% extra CHANCE at damage, I'd do it. As per some, I have problems, as per others, I have a lot of problems and as per me, I'm a completitionist ;p
Believe me, I do, I am one as well :D
But that is the sacrifice we, and other crazy min/maxers and completionist people like us, will have to make if we want tiny bonuses that are not game breaking but are a small reward for being a big help by populating lower to mid levels all over again and helping to keep towns, cities, and dungeons alive for new players and other Progeny victims enthusiasts, but again, it's way too early to discuss properly without all the details.
Kilsin said:Believe me, I do, I am one as well :D
But that is the sacrifice we, and other crazy min/maxers and completionist people like us, will have to make if we want tiny bonuses that are not game breaking but are a small reward for being a big help by populating lower to mid levels all over again and helping to keep towns, cities, and dungeons alive for new players and other Progeny victims enthusiasts, but again, it's way too early to discuss properly without all the details.
Yes. It's hard to tell right now. Keeping up with the posts so I get the info as it comes in. This isn't even close to being one of the most important things/info most of us are waiting for but whenever any answers come out, we're happy.
I don't think I like the idea of the Progeny system.
On one hand it sounds cool, on the other it doesn't. I don't want to give up a character for a bonus to a new character. I also don't want to miss out on making my character as strong as possible.
With this system in place, I am going to feel obligated to rush to max level and ignore the world around me multiple times to reach maximum 'bonus' - and this will likely take months and months - and then on the maximum bonus, actually pay attention to the world you guys have created for us. At this point it feels less like a game and more like a chore.
I honestly feel like if this system is added at all, the only bonuses have to be cosmetic or simple things that are benefits, but don't make your character outright stronger than another.
Cosmetic things like :
Your player name is a different color each time you do it. Kinda like prestige in other games.
Special hair styles for progeny characters.
Auras.
Special cloaks.
Special Tattoos.
Special emotes.
Non-cosmetic things I'd be sort of okay with :
Inheriting faction changes.
Starting in a new city, complete with faction change as if you were the race that starts there.
A recall ability with a long cast time that takes you 'home' that can be used once a day.
Say your first 50 was a Cleric. The progeny you roll a Summoner. You're allowed access to low level Cleric spells when you hit 50 again.
Slight - SLIGHT runspeed increases.
It just feels to me that the sacrifice is way too great, why would I spend the time to go 1-50 again to get a small bonus to something that as you have stated. won't be OP, when i could spend that time leveling a new character with all new tradeskills and a new role I can play in groups and fun new abilities to play with... and keep my old one to swap to.
The benefits of having 2 seperate characters seems to heavily outweigh the benefits of having one charater with +3%crafting success chance or something.
I don't see how progeny is going to encourage people to play in low levels, especially if you allow power leveling mechanics because anyone who plays hard enough to warrant doing a progeny run (you have already stated its pretty much for hardcore players and min/maxers) will probably be guilded and have friends and everyone will simply choose to bypass content anyway with their friends help, just like any MMO ever.
The people who repopulate the low levels zones and do quests there are going to be the same crowd of people that enjoy making alts... and they will simply make alts, because it has more benifit than a progeny character. Lets not forget you have to sacrifice that character.. If you look at it in terms of 'would i rather have 2 max level charaters or 1" I really feel like it makes Progeny obsolete.
Unlike a progeny character, having a second character seems much more beneficial to a player to me. I would rather have double the tradeskills and all the other benefits that having another max level alt bring to the table, than put in that amount of time for something which is "not OP" or "significant"
To change that you have to make the reward for Progeny more significant, but once you do that you are going down a slippery slope of forcing players to replay content (on the same class no less, its not like people would change their class) in the same manner again.
Is there going to be a limit to the system? What happens when one person does a progeny character for 10 years through 5 expansions and has like +200% whatever to some stat because he has re-leveled 40 times and its game breaking? If he couldn't acheive that +200% because the reward for months of re-leveling is "small" or " not OP" then why do it at all when he could of had 20 alts all at max level.
Im skeptical
Sorry if i touched on topics that have been talked about its a really long thread
Would the quality of the original character impact the benefit you gain by sacking yourself to the progeny system? If not, you can quickly farm up a character to a 3rd or 4th prestige and not bother focusing on skilling up or actually playing the game if your character gets sacked to make your next gen.
Also, you have a 2nd (or 6th) account that you use to power level with. Each game has it's own mechanic, but if this game is going to follow the EQ framework a bunch...what is stopping a high level from just throwing a huge Damage Shield (DS) on a player and if they do at least 1 point of damage before it dies they get all the exps...or will any buff cast on a low level scale to that lower level version of the same spell? I only use DS's as an easy example, but it can be any mechanic that becomes effective at Power leveling. 5 pet classes + 1 Character being leveled to slaughter to the progeny system.
Also, don't get started on the NO DROP gear discussion...if I spent weeks farming an epic (or any other drawn out quest arc or chase item) for someone only to send them to the progeny system I'd quickly black list them as they view my time only as a "small boost" instead of something long standing.
Guild discussions also get interesting, be it a smaller group event or a raid drop, it would require significant thought before taking an applicant and could also become a guild requirement... Only accepting 6th Gen progeny gnomes with Aunts named Jimmy, Jeffery, Bob.....5th Gen's need not apply....
I am not too excited about the progeny system. I tend to be a min maxer and I feel that I would have similar feelings with the progeny system as I do with WoW's current legendary item system. Both are slated as a "choice" to pursue but It really isn't if I want to squeeze out every bit of my character. On top of that, I feel like I lose all investment in my character when I have to essentially reroll. I am not interested in having a kid in game etc.
I am not looking forward to choosing to hault my or guild's progression to level up all over again, or accept not having the "slightly better but noticeable" perks. I'd be ok with passing out on cosmetic rewards; however, I'd feel forced to "retire" my toon just for combat benefits.
* Hoping to be persuaded when more info is released.
The progeny system seems like a shallow, fake, time sink mechanic. Until it has been defined, I'm thumbs down in a big way. It's not something the devs should be spending time and money on.
I’m intrigued by this, but I don’t like the idea of killing off my characters even for a small bonus. In order for something like to to work with out causing a “forced” participation by Groups/Guilds ect.. There would need to be multiple ways to achieve the “bonus”, maybe thats sacrificing the current toon for a bonus in a new one as mentioned, or maybe thats though interaction's with another player (be that traditional means :) or magic since this is a game) to play as the new toon, ect..
I don't play alts, I’m a one character and done kinda of player, but I could see playing as another toon if it was my son, then his son, and his son ect.. But I would never want to loose access to the previous character(s), even if i did have to retire them, i would still want to go fishing, maybe shake a stick at the young lads or something as them.
I think the only reason this system is in place is the devs are scared that new people down the line that join the game will feel alone in a game that focuses on group play. Seems like the only way really to not turn off new players as the game ages, which makes sense 100%. I mean imagine joining the game 8 months after release and really struggling to find a group of people the same level.
Now onto whether I like the idea or not. It wouldn't bother me if we didn't lose bank items or lose no longer unobtainable titles/cosmetics. I like holding onto certain items and going after things early on that most likely will end up unobtainable in future as a nice reminder down the line. I played WoW since release until 2009 and I had very rare unobtainable titles and epics/legendary that you could not get anymore and if they had this system in place there and I was forced to sacrifice all of it for a small bonus that would be very depressing for me......but why you may ask? Because I'm also a min/maxer and missing out on even a small 0.5% would annoy the hell out of me so I would have to do it.
@Kilsin ---- I know you said you can't talk much more about it but are you able to confirm if we lose titles/items that we got that are no longer obtainable if we so choose to sacrifice for the bonuses?
Krixus said:The progeny system seems like a shallow, fake, time sink mechanic. Until it has been defined, I'm thumbs down in a big way. It's not something the devs should be spending time and money on.
This is why making claims and speaking about a system before you actually know what it is about is a bad thing, you just completely wrote it off without ever knowing the details or trying it for yourself, which is not helpful at all.
Stephen said:I think the only reason this system is in place is the devs are scared that new people down the line that join the game will feel alone in a game that focuses on group play. Seems like the only way really to not turn off new players as the game ages, which makes sense 100%. I mean imagine joining the game 8 months after release and really struggling to find a group of people the same level.
Now onto whether I like the idea or not. It wouldn't bother me if we didn't lose bank items or lose no longer unobtainable titles/cosmetics. I like holding onto certain items and going after things early on that most likely will end up unobtainable in future as a nice reminder down the line. I played WoW since release until 2009 and I had very rare unobtainable titles and epics/legendary that you could not get anymore and if they had this system in place there and I was forced to sacrifice all of it for a small bonus that would be very depressing for me......but why you may ask? Because I'm also a min/maxer and missing out on even a small 0.5% would annoy the hell out of me so I would have to do it.
@Kilsin ---- I know you said you can't talk much more about it but are you able to confirm if we lose titles/items that we got that are no longer obtainable if we so choose to sacrifice for the bonuses?
Not yet sorry man, still to early and it is not implemented yet, we are focussed on other areas of the game at the moment but when we get to more info on this system I will share it with everyone.