Aother idea would be escalating benefits. The longer you wait to retire a toon, the better the benefit is. For example
at 50 1% increase to base stats at character creation only
50 and 6 months 2% increase
50 and a year 5% increase
50 and 2 years 11% increase (max)
The longer you wait, the better it would be. But the amount of work needed to level a new toon after a couple years would be greater as well. Risk vs reward.
Still disagree with the concept of adding bonus stats to characters for progeny. There are so, so many ways of rewarding and incentivizing progeny that sticking with base stat increases seems like a deliberately stupid way of going about it. It's either so minor as to be superfluous or required, there's basically no middle ground.
Seems to me like Progeny is a reward system designed to make it easier for people to reroll characters they're bored with without making an alt. Why not structure the rewards to fit that? If the game has acclimatization, why not allow for retention of a minor amount it? Why not allow keys to dungeon entrances to be passed down? If such gating takes hours out of a new character people will gladly use the system, especially when new races/class come out.
The pledges have special portrait unlocks at higher tiers, which implies that they can change that. Why not just add more portrait versions like prestiging? Why not allow you to retain %s of your AA point unlocks proportional to the new character level, because at least then you'd still have boosted levelling stats but the end result is the same? Why not have a higher base skill level for crafts relative to your og character's levels?
In my opinion you could literally have Progeny reward all of these things at the same time and it would be a wildly popular system. No need to make min/maxing require levelling characters multiple times; if some of you had your way, you'd have to level the same character to max 3+ times! That's just ridiculous and would be universally reviled. Why not just nip this obvious problem in the bud by providing an excellent array of incentives from the development stage?
You'd lock AA behind Progeny systems? That's even worse! If AA was worth it you'd be consigning everyone who wanted to be good at their job to relevelling for arbitrary reasons. Why not just: unlock AA at max level. People can grind AA at max level or, if they so choose, be reincarnated and obtain free points to spend at AA from level 1. What possible advantage does gating the system behind Progeny provide except requiring it in the most slavish way possible.
Jimmayus said:You'd lock AA behind Progeny systems? That's even worse! If AA was worth it you'd be consigning everyone who wanted to be good at their job to relevelling for arbitrary reasons. Why not just: unlock AA at max level. People can grind AA at max level or, if they so choose, be reincarnated and obtain free points to spend at AA from level 1. What possible advantage does gating the system behind Progeny provide except requiring it in the most slavish way possible.
I would like there to be character progression and then "ultimate" character progression for those inclined to obtain it. The longer it takes to become fully "dynamic" the better. Since we know that Progeny is going to be a part of the game, and nothing has been confirmed about AA's, Progeny could more or less end up something like that anyways. My understanding is that you will be able to continue entering the Progeny cycle as many times as you wish ... until I hear confirmation of a limitation, I'll continue to assume that.
With that being said, it's also my understanding that when you complete a Progeny cycle, you'll be "noticeably" stronger. Rinse and repeat that 5x and whether it's through raw stats, new abilities/spells, or some other form of min/maxing, it will basically be the same thing as an AA system even if it's just in micro incremental upgrades. I really like the idea of the same players having an incentive to continue rerolling their characters because it can keep all of the zones bustling with activity through all stages of the game. The only thing I don't like is how we have to retire the original character. I would prefer if we could just pull a Michael Jordan and bounce in and out of retirement whenever we felt like it. We can advance "upwardly" through raiding, dungeons, epic quests, etc when those opportunities are available, and when not we can advance "outwardly" by working on our Progeny. Having one or the other is going to make it difficult to justify utilizing Progeny since we would be trading potentially large and rapid chunks of progression through those same raids, dungeons, and epic quests for surefire yet small incremental upgrades over a longer stretch of time through Progeny.
I guess my point is that we already know that Progeny is going to be a part of the game. Having both Progeny and AA seems counter intuitive to me in every scenario I can imagine. My gut tells me that Progeny is just a fancy code word for an AA system that's already in the pipeline. If you have both, why would any end-game player choose Progeny over AA?
Any maybe therein lies a hint toward's Progeny's potential purpose? Maybe it's not designed for end-game players. Maybe it's a system for the non-raiding types to have an avenue of progression (with rewards similar to raiding albeit over a longer period of time) that doesen't actually require raiding? A leveling the playing field sort of thing?
I think any game that makes you forcibly retire a character (complete with all the quests they've completed that you now generally will have to redo) is doomed to ridicule and failure. It is not a system that has really been used in any game for basically that reason. You'd arbitrarily be forcing people to reset, forcing. It's like increasing the level cap by 50, except there is basically no new content to play through and you lose almost everything you had. How can you be ok with that?
There is a reason this thread has thousands of views: people are greatly concerned that such a system would be forced upon them. In your situation you would HAVE to, and you would be actively disincentivized from participating in quests and other content because you would just have to redo it some arbitrary time in the future. It's just a disgusting form of content recycling and there is -absolutely no reason- it has to work that way.
Jimmayus said:I think any game that makes you forcibly retire a character (complete with all the quests they've completed that you now generally will have to redo) is doomed to ridicule and failure. It is not a system that has really been used in any game for basically that reason. You'd arbitrarily be forcing people to reset, forcing. It's like increasing the level cap by 50, except there is basically no new content to play through and you lose almost everything you had. How can you be ok with that?
There is a reason this thread has thousands of views: people are greatly concerned that such a system would be forced upon them. In your situation you would HAVE to, and you would be actively disincentivized from participating in quests and other content because you would just have to redo it some arbitrary time in the future. It's just a disgusting form of content recycling and there is -absolutely no reason- it has to work that way.
I think allowing players to switch back and forth between their original character and the progeny (even under special circumstances such as only in home cities, or with time delays between switching) would alleviate the majority of those concerns. This would allow them to enjoy the progeny system without having to miss out on content appropriate for max level. I agree that forcing an ultimatum between the two would be a very difficult task in getting people to buy into it.
Here is a quote from Brad on another topic that I think sheds some hopeful light on how the Progeny system will be handled from a development perspective:
"I hear you, but that sort of thing is really difficult to plan and implement. If the plan is to implement an interesting but shallow system you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions. Will most people partake in this? Will most people enjoy it? How long will they enjoy it for? How long would it take us to implement and how many people on the team?
That all gets weighed together and, quite often, if it's not a system that has legs... has enough depth that people will be enjoying it for a long time and that it will appeal to most of your players, then it's just not worth doing. Time is better and more wisely and effectively spent elsewhere. That's why I was emphasizing how important the depth and longevity of new systems are."
With that being said, I'm going to assume that Progeny is being implemented because it passed the eye test on being enjoyable for a long time, and that it will appeal to most players. That brings me back to my point about Progeny being a fancy codeword for a pre-planned AA system. An AA system would appeal to most players, and be enjoyable for a long long time. As long as we aren't required to permanently retire our character in order to participate in the system.
That would ruin Progeny for me. I can't say for certain that I speak for "most" players but I know of a pretty easy way it can be determined. Create a poll for existing backers and ask them. Better to do that now than risk wasting time on a concept that wouldn't actually appeal to the majority of the playerbase. But wait ... this probably isn't necessary, because Progeny is pretty much all but 100% confirmed to be a part of this game. That means it WILL appeal to most players, and WILL be fun for a long time. Otherwise, why would it be listed as a core feature of the game?
I apologize in advance for my critical speculation but that's all I can do when presented with a question as broad as the title of this post. With little to no information to help me make an informed response, it turns into an uncomfortable game of teeter tottering between playing devils advocate and taking a blind leap of faith.
For the record, I'm still taking a blind leap of faith.
I don't see anything in Brad's post that necessitates forcing people to retire characters to have greater than max stats. I don't see anything fun about forcing people to level twice. I don't see anything in your logic that requires people to level twice to make the progeny system worthwhile. People raid for thousands of hours in games like GW2 for shiny weapons that don't give bonus stats. I see no reason why you couldn't do everything I've suggested to incentivize it. I just find your argument completely unpersuasive. Nothing about the Progeny system that's been described implies that retirement is anything but permanent, I just can't agree with that unfounded optimism.
Fundamentally, the idea is not abhorrent. But (as I’m sure VR will do) it has to be implemented so that subsequent lives don't become a repeat of the first life. I love rolling alts but hate completing the same content over and over.
As for faction stuff. I don’t see a problem with inherited factions. After all, as you are growing up in the real world, the actions of your family do influence how you are perceived. So, sure, inherited faction is fine. As long as it is not difficult to change faction if you want to play differently. Again, in RL, it’s easier to lose good standing than it is to gain it.
I guess a side effect of this would also mean that the level cap would not need to change, and so any new content would be all about the experience and less about having to raise the level cap. So, this should mean that content would be more detailed and less about accommodating level creep.
So all in all, as long as playing a descendant doesn’t become tedious and it remains fun, interesting and challenging, then yes, I would give it a go.
Jimmayus said:I don't see anything in Brad's post that necessitates forcing people to retire characters to have greater than max stats. I don't see anything fun about forcing people to level twice. I don't see anything in your logic that requires people to level twice to make the progeny system worthwhile. People raid for thousands of hours in games like GW2 for shiny weapons that don't give bonus stats. I see no reason why you couldn't do everything I've suggested to incentivize it. I just find your argument completely unpersuasive. Nothing about the Progeny system that's been described implies that retirement is anything but permanent, I just can't agree with that unfounded optimism.
Except leveling multiple times is literally the entire idea behind the Progeny system being implemented? Nobody ever said that Progeny would be "required" ... it's entirely optional. I think it's a great idea to incentivize people to level multiple times because it's a good way to keep all zones and tiers of content bustling with activity, throughout all stages of the game. This is where FFXI did things right ... it didn't matter where you were or what you were doing, there was probably someone nearby leveling one of their subclasses. Compare that with EQ2 ... once you get multiple expansions into the game, try finding a group to run Runnyeye with. The reason you're going to have a hard time is because most people are at max level and there isn't really an incentive for players to roll alts. Who wants to learn every language, repeat every access quest, and redo every heritage quest, knowing that there will be less players to quest with this time around? Some people will do it out of sheer boredom, but most people will not continue to reroll alt after alt. They become a stagnant piece of the max level population that otherwise NEVER revisits the lower level areas of the game. That's when half the game or more ends up becoming a wasteland with minimal player presence ... and without player presence, how are people supposed to group? WoW managed to avoid this problem by constantly maintaining a massive active player base and influx of new or returning players.
As far as my unfounded optimism goes ... there is a pretty obvious reason for that too. That quote from Brad reinforces the idea that when it comes to deciding on whether or not an "interesting system" is going to be implemented in the game, it has to pass the eye test on being appealing enough for most players to want to partake, while also being an enjoyable aspect of the game that can stand the test of time. Everything about that quote reinforces my sense of optimism. A system like this can do wonders for the community of the game as long as it's implemented correctly. In my opinion, Progeny becomes much less worthwhile if we have to permanently retire our original characters in order to participate. So the question is this ... do most other players share that sentiment? If so, we need to make that crystal clear. If it's obvious to the development team that creating this system will cause more harm than good, it can always be tweaked to be more user-friendly.
Just to be clear, I'm not asking for the development team to conform to MY ideas or personal preference. What I would like to see, however, is a poll to be put up regarding this sensitive topic. Kilsin posed a great question at the beginning of this thread. Many people have come on here to respond and share their thoughts. From what I have seen, most people want to know more about how the system works before they can commit one way or the other on whether or not they would participate. Most people also share my sense of optimism in figuring that at the end of the day, VR will get things right.
So ... to Kilsin, I propose the following question.
"The Progeny System - What Say You?"
One Brad posted is a developer's aspirational goal when implementing new content. I agree with that aspiration, but nothing about it informs us as to the specific qualities of the Progeny system.
I agree with your assessment of the general issues of low levels in a post-launch environment. I thought FFXI's response to this was similarly excellent, allowing you to level all jobs on one character. Personally I would prefer such a system in lieu of progeny or, if not in the cards, would prefer that the benefits that progeny recieve be similar. Note that this does not mean that progeny would be superior in the endgame, but would be inherently superior with an expedited levelling process by virtue of retaining faction/some crafting skills. The reason I bring up AAs all the time is because I believe it to be an easy-to-implement, excellent solution to a variety of issues, especially the ones re: low levels. For example:
With such a system in place, players would have several options: run max level dungeons for exp, or pass on some of the exp you've earned to progeny. Let's just say that they do it the quasi-FFXI way and it's more like a job change: you could start with as much as 25% of the AA points already earned, ready to be allocated. On top of cosmetic rewards like a prestige portrait or title and allowing people to keep certain types of quest progress people would be way more willing. Say Progeny allows you to obtain exp and bonus AA exp. I think such a system would appropriately incentivize players while making the idea of progeny much more appetizing. I believe that making people perceive it as mandatory is a poor way.
oneADseven said:Here is a quote from Brad on another topic that I think sheds some hopeful light on how the Progeny system will be handled from a development perspective:
"I hear you, but that sort of thing is really difficult to plan and implement. If the plan is to implement an interesting but shallow system you have to ask yourself a bunch of questions. Will most people partake in this? Will most people enjoy it? How long will they enjoy it for? How long would it take us to implement and how many people on the team?
That all gets weighed together and, quite often, if it's not a system that has legs... has enough depth that people will be enjoying it for a long time and that it will appeal to most of your players, then it's just not worth doing. Time is better and more wisely and effectively spent elsewhere. That's why I was emphasizing how important the depth and longevity of new systems are."
With that being said, I'm going to assume that Progeny is being implemented because it passed the eye test on being enjoyable for a long time, and that it will appeal to most players. That brings me back to my point about Progeny being a fancy codeword for a pre-planned AA system. An AA system would appeal to most players, and be enjoyable for a long long time. As long as we aren't required to permanently retire our character in order to participate in the system.
That would ruin Progeny for me. I can't say for certain that I speak for "most" players but I know of a pretty easy way it can be determined. Create a poll for existing backers and ask them. Better to do that now than risk wasting time on a concept that wouldn't actually appeal to the majority of the playerbase. But wait ... this probably isn't necessary, because Progeny is pretty much all but 100% confirmed to be a part of this game. That means it WILL appeal to most players, and WILL be fun for a long time. Otherwise, why would it be listed as a core feature of the game?
I apologize in advance for my critical speculation but that's all I can do when presented with a question as broad as the title of this post. With little to no information to help me make an informed response, it turns into an uncomfortable game of teeter tottering between playing devils advocate and taking a blind leap of faith.
For the record, I'm still taking a blind leap of faith.
My understanding is that Progeny is something that they really can't do much with until we get into testing. If they take a poll now, they'd just get our opinions, which are currently based on what we know of the system (almost nothing) and our past experiences in MMORPGs. I don't like the idea of Progeny right now, but once I'm able to see it in action I may feel differently about it. I definitely wouldn't say it's 100% confirmed. If they can't figure out a way to make it work in testing, I'm sure they won't cram it in just because it's listed in 'The Pantheon Difference'.
As I mentioned earlier, I believe Progeny is one of the small, non-intrusive and soft mechanics meant to help encourage more grouping through re-leveling, as well as a few other things to benefit the game. Many small soft mechanics added up impact no one's gameplay negatively to a large degree, but add all the soft mechanics up and they help. There will never be any "perfect MMO solution" however, that much is a given. Developers can only minimize negative experience and hope to do things right in order to maximize the fun and continued fun.
It has been made clear that they are still considering options and how to implement the mechanics as to how progeny will work and that they still hope to see more ideas from us. It has also been stated that progeny will never be forced on any player for any reason. It will be optional, and for those willing to take go the Progeny route, things are a little better it looks like for them, but what if they were only different?
Here is my idea for VRI, and if someone else mentioned this, apologies for not seeing it, I do try to read a great many posts, but admittedly, I do not read all the posts on the forum. I can see how the progeny system could seem a little odd to some though.
Instead of only Progeny as an option, a potential of three systems.
1) Legacy
Legacy players gain legacy bonus/benefits that are different and unique to players choosing Legacy. Potion recipes could last longer, or players that tiny bit more resist vs. something. Whatever works, just throwing ideas out there at random.
2) Progeny
As per Progeny that we know fo so far, and might gain their own unique to Progeny benefits. Progeny could be also about the unlocking of new unique recipes and crafting ideas, only through progeny, though maybe be slightly unstable, not always reliable? New population, new ways of thinking? Again, just random ideas, in the end, it's up to the devs.
3) Vanilla
Vanilla could be a form of challenge mode once chosen, so to speak and would represent choosing neither Legacy nor Progeny, with maybe a slightly lesser bonus or different benefit of some kind, a convenience, whatever, but maybe something to make them slightly more grisly and hardened. Vanilla would also be about bragging rights for solo personal achievements as well as it would be kinda cool seeing guilds of all Vanilla players seeking to equal or even better the achievements of Legacy or Prodigy type guilds... all voluntary of course, very little impact on the actual game, but but a little more balanced feeling in terms of getting something for efforts maybe?
Accessing any one of the three would open up sets of armor, weapons, trinkets, magic items, recipes etc unique and useable only by them? Can make using the three systems in a very simplified way with a small bonus and nothing more, or use it in a more complex way over time to introduce things to make everyone's experience a little more unique for making their choice?
Any ideas/suggestions on if this system might work favorably for Pantheon, or ideas on what might help it work better?
As always, if the devs cannot see this working then no worries, just trying to throw ideas out there
So I've been giving the Progeny system more thought, and really we can't give a good solid decision, til we've done some testing and feedback. I still stand with the idea, that if I have put a year's worth of time (or more) into my main character, I'm not about to kill her off or put her in the old folk's home. If anything I would do it with a secondary character...that's my thoughts for now. I have a 17 year old main character on Xegony in EQ. hehe So I think you can see where I am at. :) Personal view only of course.
I'm worried if I'll ever be able to level alts if Progeny makes it into the game.
Do I want to level another character, or level the same character a thousand times to get irreplaceable benefits? Sounds like a horrible choice no one should ever have to make.
If it makes it into the game, I foresee it killing alts to a large extent as well as basically just being an extreme way of making the "journey more important than the destination". I can actually think of zero ways that a Progeny system could be implemented that wouldn't ruin the game for me unless the benefits didn't improve combat power.
Liav said:I'm worried if I'll ever be able to level alts if Progeny makes it into the game.
Do I want to level another character, or level the same character a thousand times to get irreplaceable benefits? Sounds like a horrible choice no one should ever have to make.
If it makes it into the game, I foresee it killing alts to a large extent as well as basically just being an extreme way of making the "journey more important than the destination". I can actually think of zero ways that a Progeny system could be implemented that wouldn't ruin the game for me unless the benefits didn't improve combat power.
Yeah the "benefits" aren't clear to me yet. Which means until I understand it fully, I won't be motivated to implement it on one of my characters.
I would first like to applaud those here who have maintained a relatively civil debate on this topic. This is one of the better long threads in the forum here.
I’ve taken a long time to respond to this post because as so many have mentioned, there are so few details known. However, the criticisms presented by some are well founded and based on reasonable conclusions that result from what we have been told. The idea of deleting a max level character in order to start a new one is an unappealing notion for many that grow attached to their characters on an emotional level. This system also seems based on a cost for incentive system, where you pay for blessings on the young with the life blood of the old. If the incentives are too large, then players feel forced, but if they are too small, then the system will be underutilized. As usual for me, I would like to propose a different take on this mechanic that might avoid some of the listed issues.
Generational Progeny System: Upon reaching level 50 (assumed max) the character is allowed to procreate. This has no immediate repercussions, but as time (not literal) passes, the parent character will age. The offspring is born with situational advantages (e.g. a human child with a small amount of inherited dwarven cold resistance), but the parent will lose 1 level for each 5 gained by the offspring. By the time the offspring reaches level 50, the parent has aged and their combat abilities will have reduced to level 40.
The parent character is not a spring chicken and can’t do the roundhouse stun kick or control a pyrostorm anymore, but their mind is still sharp and their age has wizened them. The parent character’s 40+ abilities are removed and the effect of their armor is reduced (like in the mentor system). They are allowed continued progression in harvesting and crafting skills that applies to level 40 content. The level 40 metal nodes are (with practice and hard work) now able to mined for “pristine” ore. The level 40 boar npc named Hoglord can harvested for a “Hoglord’s pristine hide” assuming he has only been slain by those with the utmost care and appreciation for his bounty (other level 40 parent-characters). These crafting mats can be utilized for rare recipes that can be passed on to their offspring. The older generations can now aid in the war effort.
This process can be repeated, aging all the previous generations until you are left with a level 10 great great grandparent, a level 20 great grandparent, a level 30 grandparent, a level 40 parent, and a level 50 offspring. Each character will be persistent, each character will be able to participate in harvesting and crafting, and each character will be able to participate in level-appropriate combat content solo or with a group of similarly aged elders. The level 10 elder will retire and retreat to the safety of the forests of his home town, but his deft hand can work those tired woods in a way that no youngster ever could.
Here’s the bullet point sales pitch for the system as I see it.
1) Diversify the benefits of the progeny system. This helps to avoid any single benefit from being overpowered, but still providing incentive to utilize the mechanic.
2) Retain an emotional attachment to old characters. Not only is their memory preserved, but their unique skills can and will be called upon to help the younger generation.
3) Parent characters are effectively retired from max level content, but new and exclusive group dynamics are formed around old timers tackling pre-max content for crafting materials.
4) Offspring characters are benefited by having a genetic advantage, but are also assisted by their family support system.
I know this is just a top level mechanic idea, but I’m just in love with the idea that as a level 50 adventurer I could be asked to find a pristine green dragon whelp scale, and then call on the aid of my great great grandmother who is one of a small handful of those in Terminus who still knows how to harvest one.
One issues that I predict for this system will be for level cap bumps. I just don't know how to adapt this sytem to that at the moment.
That's definitely an interesting take on it. I like the idea of having Progeny help separate crafters from everyone else, but those crafters who most want to focus on crafting are probably the ones that least want to level five times so they can do that. Also, would you have a situation where people coming through the first time lose spots in groups to the elderly characters?
Shucklighter said:That's definitely an interesting take on it. I like the idea of having Progeny help separate crafters from everyone else, but those crafters who most want to focus on crafting are probably the ones that least want to level five times so they can do that. Also, would you have a situation where people coming through the first time lose spots in groups to the elderly characters?
I see your issue that "crafters" might not want to level five times. I would counter that the Pantheon devs stated in their most recent stream that crafters still have to level and play in combat and at least this isn't requiring them to raid. Also, I might argue that crafters are indeed likely to level five times. Most hardcore crafters in other games that I've seen had an alt for each profession. Perhaps crafting should not be allowed to be improved through the aging process, but just harvesting of materials. I feel like a much larger portion of the population is fine with harvesting materials and would actually use that benefit.
As to your second point, I don't think that overpopulation of lower level zones by level-appropriate characters is really a concern. I would think that by the time progeny system grandparents are around that underpopulation of lower level zones would be a much more pressing issue. But anyway, I had stipulated that harvesting of enemies for high quality materials would require that they only be killed by grandparents (rationalized by brash youngsters not taking the proper precautions and bruisings hides and such), thus disincentivizing the mixing of the youngsters and elders. However, as I said this is just a top level idea, so adjustments could absolutely be made on this point.
Gragorie said:This sounds like an interesting concept, but I think there should be requirements on how old a toon must be before he can be retired? Maybe something like 150 days game time (3600 hours). You shouldn't be able to retire a toon that isnt very old. I know that seems like a long time but people will leave toons logged in 24x7 to "age" them. Or maybe just a blanket "eligible after 6 months have passed since toon was created.
As I understand the goal of a system like this is to slow the rate in which your gaming population plays out of the lower levels, in an effort to sustain/maintain lower level populations and lower level grouping availability. I think that putting significant time delay criteria would defeat the purpose of the system.
I know that we have very limited information on the system thus far and so I'll reserve complete judgment until we understand more about it, but with the information that we do have, I won't be using the progeny system, and I think that a mentoring system is a better way to go.
Ainadak said:I see your issue that "crafters" might not want to level five times. I would counter that the Pantheon devs stated in their most recent stream that crafters still have to level and play in combat and at least this isn't requiring them to raid. Also, I might argue that crafters are indeed likely to level five times. Most hardcore crafters in other games that I've seen had an alt for each profession. Perhaps crafting should not be allowed to be improved through the aging process, but just harvesting of materials. I feel like a much larger portion of the population is fine with harvesting materials and would actually use that benefit.
As to your second point, I don't think that overpopulation of lower level zones by level-appropriate characters is really a concern. I would think that by the time progeny system grandparents are around that underpopulation of lower level zones would be a much more pressing issue. But anyway, I had stipulated that harvesting of enemies for high quality materials would require that they only be killed by grandparents (rationalized by brash youngsters not taking the proper precautions and bruisings hides and such), thus disincentivizing the mixing of the youngsters and elders. However, as I said this is just a top level idea, so adjustments could absolutely be made on this point.
I concede both of these points. Your plan is solid, but I still prefer the Jimmayus Early AA implementation out of the ideas here so far. It's beautifully simple, yet complete.
Thank you for the vote of confidence. My preference after reading so many proposals on this site are for ideas that are simple. People always propose these overly complicated systems that seem like a nightmare to implement. It's one of the reasons I don't like Ainadark's idea: it's overly arbitrary and punishes people for investing any time in a max level character.
Honestly one of the most important reasons that any plan for Progeny cannot provide stat boosts above those achievable by the parent is that the levelling process in this game is going to be considerably longer and require far more non-levelling stuff to do. You just cannot handwaive "levelling 5 times" to get benefits as if that's some non-issue. It is a big deal, especially when there is a whole realm of content designed around higher level characters. If it takes a player literally 5 2-month levelling processes to be considered at a baseline for gearing then the game is going to be laughed at.
I just don't see what advantage there is to be had. There are plenty of ways to incentivize retirement of old characters without creating something that will inevitably be considered a retirement. You cannot envision a system that actively punishes players for participating in high level content pre-retirement.
That's one of the reasons I harp on about AA-retainment and pre-flagging systems: if players knew that by retiring they could obtain a cool character sheet / party screen portrait by retiring then people will look at it. People who would not participate in retiring do so typically because the idea of re-flagging what is effectively the same character a 2nd+ time is just tiresome. By allowing people to retain at least some of the progress they've made it feels like less of a hard reset.
But regardless, this bears repeating: You cannot envision a system that actively punishes players for participating in high level content pre-retirement.
If the progeny system did come into play for crafters, maybe the things that come into play could just be slight alerations of the same thing, and anyone, progeny or otherwise can craft said item, it would just now come in different flavors depending on if crafted by progeny or otherwise?