Gossamer said:Could certain high end items have more than one graphic option? Or perhaps a (hard) quest that could be done once you have a certain item, to give that item a new appearance? At the end of the quest you can pick from a few select skins for that item. The one item may have three or four looks but those looks would always relate to that one item. It's extra work for devs but so is making a ton of appearance skins.
Everyone would know know you worked hard to get X item, and then people can know you put the extra oomph in to get a different appearance.
Good thoughts. Provokes me to wonder if it could be a crafting thing to alter an items appearance. You could make it as difficult or hard as you like. Perhaps it's as simple as presenting the two, perhaps you have to destroy one to have the other look like it.
I like how FFXIV handles dying and the glamour system (to a point). With the xiv system you can glamour over a higher level piece to any other lower level piece that you can actually equip. So I can glamour my super awesome blm cowl which happens to be ugly with a nicer looking blm noob gown (dyed purple of course). You must have both items in your possession to do this so no glamouring something to look like something you never owned.
The inspect functions by showing both the base item and the glamoured item.
Do content, not superficial wardrobe systems. Focus on the game, not the flowery parts.
There are parts of an MMO that, if implemented, will deter me from playing that game. Cosmetic systems such as these are NOT one of those parts. Is anyone here saying that, if being able to customize your wardrobe is not a part of the game, you will not play?
On the other hand, a lack of content, shoddy mechanics, things like that most certainly will.
I'm all for putting the focus on the parts that make the game, not giving me a way to hide my goofy looking pair of pants.
I still remember in EQ2, near the beginning. Grouping in Runnyeye. Killed some named mob near the end, getting a Rogue only pair of pants. I was excited! They even had a neat name! Put them on, and I swear they were purple spandex. I looked like a medieval richard simmons. I was both devastated and laughing my nerdy butt off. And you bet your ass I still wore those pants. With pride. They made my posterior look outstanding.
-Tralyan
I like how all the big.. strong.. (?) males need re-assert themselves by calling wardrobe systems and appearance mechanics in general 'flowery' :)
It's really amusing ^^
I've done two special forces tours. I can jog more than you can walk in an entire day. I am very straight. I also happen to like wardrobe systems. They give depth. Depth. Hunting pixels all day long is fine, but some of us (the flowery ones, lol) need occasionally have tertiary activities. Outside pew pewing. If you think pew pew pewing all day long at the exclusion of everything else is a sign of a healthy gaming community, i strongly urge you to reconsider :)
Now, should you have the kindness to do so, i would ask you to read some of the previous posts here. You may come to find how adding this system to the game can benefit those that (apparently at least) like you, only care for the pew pewing. And it can be made so.
If you lack the patience to read prior to ridiculing the wants and desires of others, that is fine too. I fully respect your opinion, wrong as it is. A very good evening to you Tralyan!
Ha. Fair enough. I can concede your point, and offer this in my defense.
I say content. To me, content is a wide array of things. This includes housing and even decorating those houses, excellent lore, story driven dungeons, immersive quests, detailed overland areas, comprehensive crafting, a thriving economy, wind that rustles through the friggin' trees, anything that can suck me into the game harder. And yes, pew-pewing.
To me, part of that content is the gear that you find, equip, and realize it looks silly. That to me, is content. Having the ability to change your appearance, to me, is NOT content. Just like having GEMS in the game to play on your downtime is also not content to me. It's filler. It's something that I feel should take a back burner to every other thing mentioned above. Changing my appearence at will does not immerse me. It does the opposite of that. Simply because it just doesn't make sense, and I say that knowing full well that "This is a fantasy video game, it's not supposed to make sense!". That's a tired argument.
I would take your assumption and strongly urge you to re-consider your assessment of myself, and those of us who may have good reasons for not wanting the same mechanic as you, regardless of whether you agree, or whether you happen to *think* we're wrong.
So I suppose the only part I will concede is that, you're right, using the term "flowery" may have been in poor taste. Just like your assumptions might have been.
-Tralyan
zewtastic said:I am definitely a fan of extensive customization function. I think it has become almost a game within a game.
What would be cool would be players being able to sell their unique outfit designs to others like a crafting option.
If there is customization, it should be a game within a game and more than just a personal quest to obtain items of a certain look. It should be something offered through tradeskills, not your UI.
Ive read this entire thread all the way through, and honestly jumped back and forth a few times deciding what I would really want in my ideal game. I of course used past game experiences as a reference of what kept me playing, and what may have turned me off. I played early EQ for a couple years and EQoA until it died. I have detailed memories of my times in those games, and one of the most memorable adventures I partook in was not one of a quest created by devs, but of my own creation.
I was a mid level SK in EQoA; there was a set of all black plate armor that I was finally able to start using, the appearance though is what truely did it for me. This stuff was rare though, and each piece came from different areas/zones, there was no defined lines of how to obtain a full set, all I knew was that SK I saw and talked to a couple months back had it all and I wanted it damnet! There so started my own epic quest of obtaining this gear. I remember before school checking to see if certain pieces we for sale, I would also do that at lunch, after school and until the wee hours of the night, religiously. Some I had to hunt down through mobs. I still remember when I got the last piece, the pair of gloves, I could not believe that someone was actually selling them after searching for months, I instantly snatched it up (I saved all my money so I would forsure have enough regardless of price).
I was so proud of that set of gear, It was actually useable for 10 levels or so and after that it was now my appearance set. I never ever felt like that gear lost any value, I truely felt that every minute of putting it together was worth it. I showed it off in the main areas even at max level with all the best raid gear,I chose to rather show that old black plate mail, even when I had the CV robe (nerfed robe that all classes could wear, was the main item everyone wanted)....
which leads me onto my next tid bit, which is that in EQoA, the most sought after item was not a best in slot raid item, it was a robe with low stats that was all for show, AKA appearance. The amount of time and focus put on these items was so only because of there difficulty to obtain, not because they also happened to look badass, that was just the incentive. Human beings are wired in such a way; do you think that if gold was now as easy to obtain as copper that it would keep its value? It sure wouldnt, the demand would greatly decrease hence driving down the appeal. The same goes for a game in which an item is ultra rare, everyone wants that item (because it looks cool yes, but because its rare moreso, Just like gold).
If all of a sudden the devs made that item a cash shop item that anyone could buy, instantly you have a large percentage of the people that previously wanted that item, who now could care less to have it. To show it off now is almost like a joke, who cares. So am I for appearance gear, of course I am, but if its going to be like EQ2 where anyone can get the coolest looking gear without much effort and then worse so, be able to put it into an appearance slot and cover up whatever items should really be showing, NO WAY! Id be okay with a quick change tab so we dont have to individually click and drop every item in and out to switch gear, but thatd be it. If the gear is weak for your level, or even stricly appearance gear (which im still okay with), then you must suffer to consequnces of wearing it in battle, simple, oh so simple. =)
I want to be able to walk up to someone and recognize certain items, I want to also feel proud when I can show off my cool items as well. It contains the realism within the game world, as in, the wand with that special glow from the gods, that wand must be off of a deity god raid boss or something, not off some silly quest or a cash shop. There has to be a level of difficulty in obtaining these items that isnt conducive to, oh you have an account, well you can get this item. It must be much much harder then that, so much so that many might not even attempt to try, or many will and will fail. The generation of wanting everything, and wanting it now is not going to like this game if things go in the direction in which I envisioned. Quite frankly, from what Ive read of the devs comments, things will be close to what Im talking about, so Im confident they will get it right. It really does though depend on the item graphics, they gotta get things right to where in general, the high end raid and group loot wont be less appealing then, lower tiered, easier to get items.
Eek! Wall of text! I did read it though ;) Always like personal MMORPG stories!
I think we would still see people questing like you did just to get items that look really good, which is great!
But to have to 'manually' switch in those pieces when you're not fighting? Not so keen. It's one inconvenience that doesn't have an up-side as far as I can see. To be forced to display the item that is functionally great, but you hate the look of? I don't see the good in that.
I too totally dislike the idea of buying a ridiculous cash-shop look. You should earn your look, but as much as some people love to show off an item that is a undoutably 'cool' because of the difficulty in obtaining it, others prefer to tailor their look to something more subtle and understated.
Beauty is possibly the most subjective concept there is. Coolness is a close contender. Options are the best thing to cope with something so subjective, surely. To let me keep the look of something I was wearing before is surely not going to upset anyone and would be greatly desirable to me.
There was a thread a few days ago asking about the use of the word "prestige". Well part of what makes that up is a character's collection of gear. When people can look at you and see you have certain equipment, your journey, your accomplishments, your power, are visually represented in manner in which others recognize, and that means something. That is part of prestige.
I love the idea my armor would look differently than others. If I went on a raid and got a chest piece I expect it too look differently from others. It helps us become more individualized. I like the idea to able to dye our armors just don't change the actual design of the armor.
Some of those MMO's out there dont even change the graphic style of the armor as the character progress through levels...personally I hate this it kills the immersion.
For me disposalist, It was the fact that there was always somthing to strive for. Once they let players show whatever they want inplace of the actual items they are wearing it takes away from alot of that. I can understand people not liking the look of the best in slot items, but the majority of people from my experiences do like what the devs have done in EQ/EQoA/Vanguard/EQ2 even, in terms of the top end items and the graphics asscoiated with those items. Again were back to the same problem that comes up in alot of these popular threads (instancing, mounts etc...); it is impossible to please everyone, and once you start trying to do that, you end up with the MMORPGs we have before us today (WoW best example).
There has to be a strict guide followed by the devs, one that keeps the game immersive, and takes away from as much immersion breaking as possible. IMO allowing players to fight battles with for example, plate armor, but as a joke they have on some ragged old clothes in the 'appearance slots', is totally rediculous and absolutely immersion breaking. Again, I understand people not liking the way some gear looks, and again though, it is impossible to please everyone.
The best games Ive played (eq/eqoa/vanguard/eq2) it seemed as if EVERYONE sought after the higher end gear (im talking stricly in terms of appearance not stats), it always looked better with more unique atributes to the graphics. The lower tiered stuff it supposed to not be as appealing, and even somtimes totally unatractive, this is to entice the player to work for the better, harder to get items. As soon as they take that away, or even minimalize it by adding appearance slots or cash shops etc..it ruins everything good about obtaining the best items. Why work for somthing when we can get somthing that looks as good much easier...
Another thing, Pantheon is not like the MMORPGS today where there is little to no down time, and everything is instantly right there for you. This game will have down time. It will have auction radius to where you have to be within a certain range of a player or auction house to see items for sale. Just that alone means people hanging out in main areas, trading, chatting etc...which means plenty of time to show off any appearance we please (a swtich appearance tab would sufice). Even hanging out with a couple of friends looking for more group mates, you could show off your appearances and do what you do. Once it comes time to fight though, we have a choice to make, switch out of the appearance gear or face the stat reduction if the gear is weaker then your best gear. I feel like this is the best way to make the largest percentage of people happy, without being immersion breaking.
Krix, this one I agree with you 100% bud, its all about prestige, if you didnt earn it, you cant some how fake it. I like when the truth is the truth and real is real.
(edited last post to space it out a bit, thanks for heads up disposalist)
No one talked about removing 'prestige'.. no one even bothers to analyse just how.. petty it is talking about prestige. If virtual, non-existing, inconsequential, non-real "prestige" is something of interest to you, it will still be there. Again, no one talked about removing it, in any way or form.
You do two things wrong:
- you do not read the previous comments, see if whether (or to what an extent) your concerns have already been addressed
- you allow for misconceptions based on specific implementations to distort a whole concept, even though you obviously have a limited experience or understanding of it
It is not about looking "better", or "cooler" from someone that earned his gear. Not in the slightest. And i do not blame you the players in this, no. Or rather, not just you. Even Brad seems to think like that, ie superficially. I am sorry to say so. Best excuse he could give me was one having no bearing on the reality of this, something which once i highlighted.. he's yet to explain further :)
This is a system that can be implemented without removing ANY, ANY aspect of the "carrot effect". Including the "work for my prestige" one. On the contrary, this is a system that if done right and with the correct limitations can boost multiple aspects of any MMO. Again, without removing aspects you all seem to worry about.
Now, knowing our species, a good 95% of you that were already against it will think "who are you to.." or something similar. I urge you to read back first, think afterwards. And then come back and see how you all repeat the same, same arguments, over and over, despite their being a non issue. Including Brad.
Am sorry if this is too.. polemic for some's tastes, but this mmo is supposedly directed at maturer, adult individuals. Seeing the Freudian Joy of Repetition in all its glory here is hardly conducive of that :)
You have your opinion I have mine. I respect your opinions thats forsure. For me, it actually is a cool factor. As in, you see a top level player with a big ol shiney sword and say, "man that looks cool, I want that!" You ask how to obtain such items. You put in the effort/energry, and eventually you gain said sword. I didnt put in all that work just because the stats were good, no, the damn thing looked cool. Honestly it doesnt go much further. Now its on the devs to create highley sought after items and I dont see how theres a problem for most if so.
This idea of possibly being able to change the appearance of items that are of the same slot and material, as in chain legs can only be replaced by chain legs, is somthing I could live with, but really would not want if I had the choice. Just my opinions, and even if it has been discussed before I feel my input is valid and will continue to add my opinions to the other highley discussed threads as well.
I'm a woman and I still don't like wardrobe in games. I tried coloring some outfit my druid had in EQ when that became available. Looked cool, but it took away from the items for me, which is why I didn't do it again. I don't mind looking like a christmas tree like my druid did for the longest time in EQ. I was proud of the items she had.
I think I've said it before in this thread, or another, but in any case, here it is: I just love drooling at other people's stuff, recognizing the items from afar and thereby also knowing the level of the avatar - more or less (not going into the twinking bit here). When my pally was too low for questing for the Ro armor, I totally drooled over the avatars, who had it.
I also love people asking me about the gear my avatars have. I remember when I got Valorium greaves from Plane of Fear (EQ) for my pally during my first raid there. I got a lot of tells about my "designer blue jeans". Made friends through that, too.
Aenra said:No one talked about removing 'prestige'.. no one even bothers to analyse just how.. petty it is talking about prestige. If virtual, non-existing, inconsequential, non-real "prestige" is something of interest to you, it will still be there. Again, no one talked about removing it, in any way or form.
You do two things wrong:
- you do not read the previous comments, see if whether (or to what an extent) your concerns have already been addressed
- you allow for misconceptions based on specific implementations to distort a whole concept, even though you obviously have a limited experience or understanding of it
It is not about looking "better", or "cooler" from someone that earned his gear. Not in the slightest. And i do not blame you the players in this, no. Or rather, not just you. Even Brad seems to think like that, ie superficially. I am sorry to say so. Best excuse he could give me was one having no bearing on the reality of this, something which once i highlighted.. he's yet to explain further :)
This is a system that can be implemented without removing ANY, ANY aspect of the "carrot effect". Including the "work for my prestige" one. On the contrary, this is a system that if done right and with the correct limitations can boost multiple aspects of any MMO. Again, without removing aspects you all seem to worry about.
Now, knowing our species, a good 95% of you that were already against it will think "who are you to.." or something similar. I urge you to read back first, think afterwards. And then come back and see how you all repeat the same, same arguments, over and over, despite their being a non issue. Including Brad.
Am sorry if this is too.. polemic for some's tastes, but this mmo is supposedly directed at maturer, adult individuals. Seeing the Freudian Joy of Repetition in all its glory here is hardly conducive of that :)
And yet you continue to repeat the same thing as if your opinion should have some bearing on the opinion's of others.
Buckeyes said:There has to be a strict guide followed by the devs, one the keeps the game immersive, and takes away from as much immersion breaking as possible. IMO allowing players to fight battles with for example, plate armor, but as a joke they have on some ragged old clothes in the 'appearance slots', is totally rediculous and absolutely immersion breaking. Again, I understand people not liking the way some gear looks, and again though, it is impossible to please everyone.
I absolutely agree but I don't think my suggestion breaks that rule. It's not an all or nothing idea. Just let people use the look of any items they've worn before. I'm sure, on the whole, people will want to show off the latest most impressive item they have, but with 'looks' and 'prestige' being such a subjective and personal thing, allowing someone to stick with a look they've earned instead of being forced to use one they find disappointing is a pretty trivial option yet very satisfying to some. Some like to wear their achievements on their chest and look every part the shiny hero. Some like to be more subtle and let their actions and voice speak for their ability.
I'm the person that gets a hot new motorcycle in matt black and takes all the shiny badges and decals off. I still feel the pride and prestige.
Angrykiz said:Let me start by saying that I am absolutely against appearance gear in the way most games have implemented it with another rag doll that you can fill up with the gear that is showing...
But one thing I really liked was in an unlikely game called Warhammer Online... they had features where you could dye some parts of your armor that made sense but the big thing were trinkets...
Trinkets were little embellishments that could be placed in a tiny slot on some of your armor pieces like belts and shoulders and I thought this was cool as hell and totally original.
Are you a paladin well maybe you would seek out holy trinkets or are you a shaman well you're gonna need some shrunken heads to go on your belt or staff.
I know this is probably hard to implement but I really thought it was a cool way of giving characters diversity without ruining armor looks with appearance gear.
Thanks for reading and I'd like to hear more opinions on this,
Kiz~
I LOVED trinkets in Warhammer Online!
I'm all for the idea that you wear what you get with the ability to dye your pieces if you choose. No appearance rag doll tabs. You should be seen as what you are wearing.
disposalist, I see precisley where your coming from. I honestly hope that there are options for everyones tastes, again within the guidelines I would hope the devs follow in order to not be immersion breaking. As in high end gear that is of the expected kind, flashy and stands outs more then lower tiered items. But also have some other, more suttle and less flashy items that are close in stats (not quite as good or even better than some of the other high end items). I can only see this being a problem if the devs are limited in resources/time, meaning less different graphics for items.
Id like to see, lets say for example, items that drop in the mid levels that are unique from any other and end up lasting the test of time in terms of appearance so even at max level well see plenty of chars running around showing off older gear from lower levels/tiers. Maybe a really rare long sword that is actually a 1hander, so a rare type of graphic for a 1H weapon. So, even though this item is level 30, it was still incredibly hard to aquire and even at max level there is no item like that so it is still a highley sought after item for appearance at later levels. IMO stuff like that can counter balance the whole issue of people looking the same and also people not liking certain looks of items.
Another small point I wanted to make is that; if things are done right and there are very few instances, then all this high end gear we talk about will not be easy to aquire. Its different in the games of today where the best in slot item can be very easy to obtain. The easier it was, the less attached you are to that item, so even if you like the appearance you may never really care enough to want to show it off. Where as, if you put in a large amount of time and energy (mind you while having fun with your groupmates), I mean you really earned some item...you may not even care so much about the graphic because of how proud you are to have aquired that item, this has happened to me on multiple occasions raiding in EQoA. I remember getting this weapon off Berttox, no one else on the server had even killed this dragon, let alone have this item, but the graphic was like a 1 handed tree branch. It didnt matter I was so damn proud to show it off, I got so many tells, It was really a fun time in my gaming life! I wouldnt trade that tree branch for the shiniest, most badass looking sword they could create, nooooo way! I Had so many other cool weapons, one that was a nerfed item that everyone wanted, my epic, but in the end that was the weapon I was holding on the last day in EQoA.
Aenra said:No one talked about removing 'prestige'.. no one even bothers to analyse just how.. petty it is talking about prestige. If virtual, non-existing, inconsequential, non-real "prestige" is something of interest to you, it will still be there. Again, no one talked about removing it, in any way or form.
You do two things wrong:
- you do not read the previous comments, see if whether (or to what an extent) your concerns have already been addressed
- you allow for misconceptions based on specific implementations to distort a whole concept, even though you obviously have a limited experience or understanding of it
It is not about looking "better", or "cooler" from someone that earned his gear. Not in the slightest. And i do not blame you the players in this, no. Or rather, not just you. Even Brad seems to think like that, ie superficially. I am sorry to say so. Best excuse he could give me was one having no bearing on the reality of this, something which once i highlighted.. he's yet to explain further :)
This is a system that can be implemented without removing ANY, ANY aspect of the "carrot effect". Including the "work for my prestige" one. On the contrary, this is a system that if done right and with the correct limitations can boost multiple aspects of any MMO. Again, without removing aspects you all seem to worry about.
Now, knowing our species, a good 95% of you that were already against it will think "who are you to.." or something similar. I urge you to read back first, think afterwards. And then come back and see how you all repeat the same, same arguments, over and over, despite their being a non issue. Including Brad.
Am sorry if this is too.. polemic for some's tastes, but this mmo is supposedly directed at maturer, adult individuals. Seeing the Freudian Joy of Repetition in all its glory here is hardly conducive of that :)
There are multiple threads within this thread talking about different things. I gave an off the cuff opinion directed at nobody based on something that came to me after reading another post. What are you doing if not repeating the same thing over and over again?
Throughout this thread you've told people they aren't answering your question, completely dismissing the opinion of a lot of people. Just because you disagree doesn't mean your question isn't getting valid answers. You feel very strongly about something that other people do not. And when other people disagree with you, you throw away their opinions like they don't matter.
You are #1: Solutioning a problem you don't even think is a problem.
#2: Applying your solution to someone else's "problem"
and #3: acting like people who don't agree with your solution to their problem aren't paying attention.
I want to look at someone and know their story. Your dismissal of that "inspect is 1 click away" is solving someone else's problem with your solution, and guess what, plenty of us don't like that solution. I want to see with my eyes the story of a character. If you don't get that then I don't know what to say. I understand what you want perfectly, and while I don't want the same thing I'm able to agree to disagree.
We're in a pre-alpha stage, these are the dog days, people are going to talk in circles.
The characters I make are very important to me. Just as it is with any comic book artist, movie maker, or artist I really care about the visual representation of my character. While I respect the developers with wanting visual achievements to be displayed so that other players can have a sense of inspiration, i also think we lose something else when we get rid of appearance slots. Taking decisions away from your players comes to mind. And a players character is very important. Example.. I am one of the people in original Everquest who created characters with the sol purpose of looking the part. I'm talking about a lvl 40+ DK wearing black leather armor and using unarmed combat only. It was important to me to look good and I was proud of my unique look. (though you can imagine how hard it was to group. While playing World of Warcraft, their appearance tool allowed me to group easier.) heck, I also had a ranger that ALWAYS had a whip and a scimitar. I wouldn't use any other weapons. Period.
Some people pick their equipment like they pick their characters hair style or race. That same player may pass an opportunity for a better piece of equipment (many times) in order to avoid looking out of character. What would happen if you took away Supermans blue and Red costume? Or Batmans utility belt and batarangs? Our characters we make are not Superman to a developer. But to the individual playing them they are. Our characters in a sense represent our style and an appearance slot will help achieve this. Appearance slot is not a deal breaker for me. But If not included it is a big deal to me. It would be a huge inconvenience. Just like my favorite race not being able to be my favorite class and vice versa would be a huge inconvenience. Too many sacrifices from your players and fallout happens.
Think again about what you gain from not including appearance slots. And please think hard. Would you take Supermans cape from him? I wouldn't. -Todd