Aradune said:Kilsin said:Appearance gear and weapons - Do you like being able to change your characters appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons, even if a few others have it too?
I think it's really important that when you look at another player you see a representation of the gear they've earned and their accomplishments. First, hey, it's fun as the higher level guy to show off. Secondly, and more importantly, it inspires lower level players to acheive.
As for 'appearance gear' or what I call cosmetic items (items that change your appearance but don't really do anything for your character) I think there can be a place for them. Many players like to role-play and dress up, etc. So we are consdiering a cosmetic layer, where you could wear cosmetic gear and that would show up instead of your real gear if you wanted.
Where I would probably draw a line would be the whole dying or somehow altering the in-game appearance of an earned item. The Crimson Breastplate of the Sphynx should look awesome, and it should be red. And you should, after playing the game for a while, recognize rare and powerful items being worn by players who've worked hard to obtain them.
I could see a RP set of gear for looks only with no stats and would be agreeable to that.
I think the point of only having one set is to prevent people from using formal, casual or other look sets during combat. A suggestion I support. It prevents them from having to go through and put flags on when and where particular items could be worn. Frankly I don't care if people have the ability to wear the wrong gear while adventuring, as long as they go down in flames while doing so.
Dullahan said:I think the point of only having one set is to prevent people from using formal, casual or other look sets during combat. A suggestion I support. It prevents them from having to go through and put flags on when and where particular items could be worn. Frankly I don't care if people have the ability to wear the wrong gear while adventuring, as long as they go down in flames while doing so.
But at least they will go down in style. :p
Aradune when you first joined the discussion here you mentioned how you "wanted exotic gear to show so as to motivate people". In a follow-up to your post, i posed some reasonable questions (based on said statement) which you have yet to reply to. With the danger of this being considered a necro (i have not the time to check often, so my apologies), i will risk repeating myself and re-post my questions. No editing, same post as was back then. Here's to hoping second time is the charm. Pasting:
@Aradune assuming you read this..You mentioned you are strongly against appearance slots being effective when in combat. I see a preference stated, but without any explanation. So.. why? :)
i) What's the point of devoting man-hours to appearance slots if they go "off" the instant we enter combat mode?... (there is none. Combat is not only 40 people all set, combat can be that while i RP, on my own, i aggroed a mob. You are taking about a design implementation for nothing. Doesn't sound very practical to me when put like this, let alone rational).
ii) How exactly am i to comprehend (in reasonable, mature-oriented terms) a reply of the sort "i want exotic gear to show so as to motivate people"? Brad, we are not new to MMORPGs. And we are not any younger either. We already KNOW what better gear means, where, how and whether we want to go after it or not (answer, we do, this is a themepark, so your argument is prety much null anyway, this is the whole point. Get better gear..my having a choice about my look does not invalidate my wanting better gear..nor could it. Ever). So that's off.
iii) Your "exotic" gear, so that we can sit around in a town square for others to gawk at us right?, will by default look "shinier"/"better". Nothing threatened, argument-wise, by appearance slots. You'll be the ones to design everything, so entirely up to you to maintain that distinction to its fullest. As such, this is not an argument against appearance slots either.
iv) Occasionally, glowy staves and flashy dresses lit up like xmas trees going on and off are hardly everyone's choice. Appearance slots do not signify "oomph" factor or "extra cool" (so your "exotics" are safe). Appearance slots are about taste. Style. And the odd need to set an image of your avatar as you yourself imagine it. Not about overriding the hierarchy the game has set. Just about having the option, because it is impossible for everyone to like this one set you want us to like. So this too i personally fail to see as a valid argument.
v) In a game with /inspect and online community pages, in a game where there can be a toggle controlling whether "i can only see people's worn gear", why are you against personal choice?
Do not confuse appearance slots with "fancy"/"fancier" please. If you are honestly after cheese to attract the hamsters, make only the exotic gear look "amazing".
Wanting a fixed visual need not entail looking "better" than 'x' person who raids all day. I can guarantee you it is simply about one player having found something he likes, and wishing to keep it. Which cannot be done (see: themepark and forced gear upgrades). Hence appearance slots. It's really so simple.
Benefits:
- Anyone yearning to stand still and have others gawk at him can still do just so. Exotic gear can and will remain the best-est-est ever looking.
- With inspects and toggles you escape any kind of confusions, accidental or deliberate. While you gratify those that seek more than epic cheese in games. They too pay you.
- With only a small (relatively) code addition, you can have an extra sphere in your game. Tied to crafting, tied to mob drops (not just economy, see also extra reason to return to areas), tied to auctioning
Would honestly appreciate a reply, as i honestly cannot fathom your reasoning :)
Perhaps I misunderstood but I figured the implication was that items that are used for aesthetic purposes only just don't provide any stats. If I take my old armor piece and put it in an appearance slot, it overrides the appearance of the one that's giving my stats. That's all.
Kilsin said:I share the same opinion as you guys, I think appearance gear is great as long as you have to remove your armour and replace it with appearance gear/weapons, I do not personally think they should replace the skin of the earned armour.
For example, if I want to put on a hooded robe as a Rogue and walk around towns looking shifty and eyeballing peoples pockets, I would need to remove my awesome raiding armour gear and lose all the benefits associated with it to wear the robe. this allows role playing and customisation to a degree without breaking immersion or allowing OP players running around in rags or cloth armour while tanking tough mobs etc.
Appearance is pretty important in my opinion and this is my personal opinion, I don't speak on behalf of the team. just sharing my thoughts as I see a lot seem to agree on these forums and FB ;)
Yes, I could get behind appearance sets, but the Transmog feature wow has is going too far. If you are a plate wearing tank and want to wear a pirate suit your character's armor stat should reflect this.
@Kilsin: You have an official status here :)
While i appreciate reading your own preferences (and i DO respect them), i do not suppose you could be so kind as to explain why non-removal/replacement is such a deal breaker to you? I know it's an MMO forums staple, users logging in, typing "i like this and only this' and moving on, but i am personally more interested in the reasoning behind it. Especially when the individuals speaking their mind have a certain status.
@Sabelian: I believe you are taking this to an extreme. No one advocates a system where there are no limitations; more importantly (do excuse me for saying this), i find the WoW example rather..unfavourable. Are you comparing WoW to Pantheon..? Are you perhaps using a strawman to drive a point home? We need not use extreme examples.
In the off chance it's not apparent. The 'why' interests me because i am trying hard to decide what, how and if this game's systems, mechanics or design philosophy reflect on the future. In this and many other aspects, i have thus far seen statement after statement, but little to no actual logic behind it. If to you that is 'fine', all the better. To me it is worrying. And because once again i may be misunderstood:
- There are systems that should stay as they were (from back 'then'/early 2000)
- There also happen to be numerous systems that have been introduced since and that could be added/implemented without, at all, affecting the above. Co-existance.
It makes a difference (to me) knowing whether i have a dev team on blindfolds, or whether i happen to have a dev team that whatever its decisions, has some logic behind them to support it.
Maybe that's just me, but being told why is infinitely more important that being told 'this'. And thus far, this has been a clashing of opinions, not a comparing of reasonings.. Hence my asking @Aradune again. I read and respected his reply. But as you see from my post above, i fail to see any logic behind it. Hence my asking. No offense meant :)
From what I've read here, the primary concerns of the no-appearance change crowd are:
To put in my 2p, I fully agree with 1 and 2. Dear god no, you shouldn't be able to mod your gear's appearance with either of those.
That said, I think appearance mods are fine, especially as you're talking about the avatar each player associates with on every single login. There are times when I have personally found endgame armour *horrifically* gaudy and over the top. Yet, if you want to do endgame content, you need the stats so tough luck, you have to wear it and bear it.
I think the ability for me to mod my ugly-as-sin (at least in my eyes) breastplate to look like a piece of armour that I personally thought looked great which I had 20 levels ago is a good one. It allows for me to associate with my character better and actually achieve superior immersion.
The majority of time spent in an MMO is spent at some variation of endgame. Unfortunately this is also the point when everyone's appearances start to converge. Even if everyone has to wear situational gear to match climates and the like, you're still talking about everyone wearing situational gear. Yep. So all of those 3 rogues wearing appropriate situational gear at endgame? They all look the same. Maybe not exactly the same as they haven't quite reached the same gear levels, but pretty close to it.
Leave us the option to alter our appearance, but just be sensible. Nobody wants you to be able to look like you're a slutty cat on Halloween while in mid-combat, or to be able to look like you're in plate as a wizard. But seriously what's the issue with me wanting to look like I'm wearing the level 20 cavalier's armour set which I loved, rather than the blue-and-gold gear I have to wear to raid but hate to look at?
But then again, I'm weird and I'm only an advocate of appearance mods on armour. I think your weapon should look like it is, plain and simple.
@IndecentMonk Thanks for the feedback. Much obliged. Someone can articulate a 'why' after all! :)
1. I believe everyone here agrees that non-class gear is a touch too much (ie as you mentioned, a tank in cloth), so perhaps we can stop mentioning it as an example of why "appearance slots suck"? And i do agree this is something that should be left out by the way. Since however as stated, everyone else thinks likewise, perhaps we can finally put this particular concept to rest? Regurgitating something that won't make it in anyway is superfluous.
2. The actual look of ---any--- ingame gear piece is something decided and implemented by the dev team. I am more than certain they will (unlike games that favour visuals such as these) have clothing and armour thematically relevant to Pantheon. So that's not a concern; and as such, perhaps one more "example" (and what a coincidence is it not? How we always pick the extremes to prove our point?) we should stop inserting into the conversation?
3. Who told you that you must be able (by default and a-priori) to know everything there is to know about another's char? I know you're used to this, because simple MMOS targetting the ..average.. audience all function alike in this respect (e-penis e-penis, look at what i wear), but can we not broaden our 'vision' here a bit? Just because this has been the norm, who is there to say it is also the right way to go? The only way to go?
You can always inspect me if you're just dying to know what my pants are. A click away. And be honest, even if you COULD see what my pants are, chances are you'd still /inspect me regardless. hmm? I honestly fail to see any reason for you to do that except of course if you need to group with me. That makes sense, you need to know if i'm geared for it. Ok. Inspect, and you're done. Need we not only limit another player's expression and fun, but actually remove an entire feature when you'll STILL be capable of seeing what gear they wear? Even if it's in? That sound reasonable to you? :)
No one takes something away from you. You in general, the player that just HAS to know as much about a stranger as they possibly can.. you still will be able to do that. While at the same time? Read my post above, the one with the questions. Consider the possibilities, the fun of a tertiary activity ingame, the benefit of a game attracting more than the hardcore raiding crowd.
EQ, VG, they had other types of players too. They too boosted the ingame economy, they too boosted the company's monthly income. When you can have as hardcore an EQ sequel (Pantheon) as you please but ALSO have that, on the side, optional, for others if not for you, why exclude it? Ask all those casuals, crafters and RPers of 'back then' if appearance slots and any other tertiary activity (collections for example) are an incentive or not, see what they tell you. Too early back then for such things, today however, they can expect them. And again, read my post above, one with the questions. There are other factors at play here too, beyond the obvious.
@Oakknower
Aenra said:being told why is infinitely more important ... thus far, this has been a clashing of opinions, not a comparing of reasonings..
OakKnower said:I strongly think gear should be adjusted in appearance through the tradeskill system only
..congratulations.. MMO average forum poster #6352748
Plenty of people articulated the why, you just didn't agree or were unable to understand their perspective.
Ultimately its a matter of opinion. There are things that may or may not mesh with Pantheon's design though.
Aenra said:@Kilsin: You have an official status here :)
While i appreciate reading your own preferences (and i DO respect them), i do not suppose you could be so kind as to explain why non-removal/replacement is such a deal breaker to you? I know it's an MMO forums staple, users logging in, typing "i like this and only this' and moving on, but i am personally more interested in the reasoning behind it. Especially when the individuals speaking their mind have a certain status.
Simply put, it breaks immersion for me and the whole realism/fantasy lines blur at that point, I have nothing against cosmetic gear at all, I just think in deeply immersive and community orientated games like EQ/VG and soon to be Pantheon, it cheapens the experience buy allowing someone to run around group/raid tanking in a robe or Santa costume, it may also be due to my experience leading guilds and raids and knowing when I see someone with certain gear on, I know they must have worked hard for it and earned it as part of a team, whereas if someone wears cosmetic items, I have no idea what they are really capable of, how well geared they are and it just looks silly to me seeing a class in completely non-appropriate attire for that classes role within a group/raid.
Again, it's personal opinion/preference for everyone and I don't mind someone wearing that stuff at all, as long as they have to take off their existing armour and replace with the cosmetic gear, losing all stats associated with their normal armour. ;)
I've got to say I'm against appearance slots and the ability to change the way something you're wearing looks, I can't articulate why other than I just don't like it, it feels gimmicky to me.
At most, I wouldn't mind a VERY strict appearance slot (ie. if you wanted to change a plate circlet, it could only be changed to another plate circlet, not a plate armet; if you wanted to change a cloth vest's appearance, it could only be changed to another cloth vest, not a cloth robe). I would also say that this should need a tradesperson to change it for you (like OakKnower mentioned) and should not be able to just change on the fly with whatever you drag into an appearance slot.
But I'd still rather no appearance slot/change mechanics, I think what you're wearing should only look like what it's meant to look like. This is simply my opinion on the matter.
Rachael
As long as the best looking appearence gear comes from the highest level group and raid content I'll be happy. If you can just get good looking appearence gear at low levels it will really ruin the game for me. If you want your character to look good you should have to put the time into your character in order to get there. So the best appearence gear should only be achievable on the hardest group and raid content the game has to offer.
I can understand the reasons behind not letting players wear cosmetic only items like a suit/dress/seasonal gear to actually visually replace combat gear, or having a tank wear a mages robe, but I think I should be able to change the look of say a sword or helmet to that of anothers if I so choose (assuming the same type/slot). I get the reasons why some dont like it, but tough cookies! TO be blunt, its not your character. So I have to carry around some ridiculously large, rhoided up, flashy gear piece because you want some visual proof Ive downed the boss that drops it? No, sorry, that kind of "preference" doesnt supercede the individual players preference.
Furthermore its one of the more attractive features for many players out there (IMO) to be able to really customize their own character and not be stuck in current BiS gear, which hasnt exactly always been "tasteful" in the past, no matter the game. Its another thing to do as well, particularly at end game, and it promotes visits to old content from higher level players (if there is a level sync feature).
@Kilsin uses the "tank wearing robes" argument to discard an entire system. Even though we've covered it, even though we all agree it would not make it in in ANY shape or form. That it is at best a strawman and an invalid one, so why employ it. And yet, again, here it is, as a contra-argument... well done Kil :)
@Rachael cannot "even articulate" his reasoning as he puts it, so i guess that's ok. Good to know people have self-awareness. We wouldn't want to live in a (virtual) world where things happen without our understanding why, now would we, lol.
@Gromulent uses the "best looking gear" argument.. again.. i would assume he has i) neither read my posts above, or ii) have the immense ability (joking) to envision a situation where players do not care about the "bestest", and simply wish for a simple, humbler(?) or plainer appearance. He sticks to the shiny. Even though that too, apart from addressed, should have been obvious as to the why it is not the case. Appearance slots would NOT be "shinier" than his big shiny sword. Not the system's intent. Reading comprehension is a must for forum participation guys, really.
@Elrandir uses (like Gromulent above) the "epic" looking argument again, only in inverse. He too has neither read my posts nor came to envision a scenario where the concept of different/personally appealing does NOT equal "uber"/"shiny"/"bestest". And yet, here we are again, regurgitating. Ok.
Need i honestly type the obvious? It is an exercise in vain, am aware. But look at your conservatism. Either in the actual thinking process, or its fruits. You employ arguments that do not stand or have been already addressed so as to discard an entire system that would both a) attract more players and b) enrich the Pantheon word further. At NO, NO consequences, whatsoever, to any of you.
I rest my case.. :)
Aenra said:@Kilsin uses the "tank wearing robes" argument to discard an entire system. Even though we've covered it, even though we all agree it would not make it in in ANY shape or form. That it is at best a strawman and an invalid one, so why employ it. And yet, again, here it is, as a contra-argument... well done Kil :)
Not sure you understand the meaning of a Strawman?
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
I didn't exaggerate, mislead or fabricate anything, I gave my opinion, I used a very basic example and explained what turns me off appearance gear that replaces the appearance of actual gear with stats, allowing someone to run around in the appearance of whatever they like, while having stats from different armour/equipment that isn't visible. Which you asked me to do, yes, I gave a very brief and simplified version as it is a very deep and complicated topic for many people who have many different views on it and I do not have the luxury of time on my side, but I answered honestly and gave my reasons for you to understand my post, if you are going to try and call me out and set me up each time you engage with me, at least, get your arguments right or I will stop responding to you ;)
The Devs would be crazy not to implement a cash shop for appearence items and house decorating items. I am against stupid stuff like pirate outfits and clown suits too but if you have ever played EQ2 they have an amazing cash shop(excluding the funky stuff). You can buy awesome looking weapon skins and armor and all sorts of house building blocks and furniture. I personally spent all of my real life money in the cash shop as i just purchased Kronos from other players for sub time.
As far as people saying they want to earn that "cool" look, let me put it to you this way, just because you think its cool doesnt mean I do. In fact, some of the best raiding gear is always ugly as hell. I want options, lots of options, and I am willing to pay for them as long as they dont break immersion (IE the clown suits)
The cash shop(in eq)is a HUGE revenue stream and it only has appearence and house items in it with the standard experience pots.
I desperately want a second slot for appearence. Give me options dont limit me. If you want to make the cooliest looking weapon in game a raid drop then fine, but give other options in the shop. I would drop 10 bucks as soon as I got my first rusty sword to make it look like a cool axe or something.
TL:DR
EQ2 Did it right IMO. yes please to appearence items in cash shop and appearence slots. We need MORE options not LESS.
I'd also like to mention once again like I did earlier in this thread. The art team is likely putting in hundreds of hours to make amazing looking gear that we will likely never see the appearance of again after the game progresses for so long. By not having appearance slots, you're basically promoting the homogenization of player appearance, and "wasting" a hell of a lot of artistic talent.
Aenra said:@Elrandir uses (like Gromulent above) the "epic" looking argument again, only in inverse. He too has neither read my posts nor came to envision a scenario where the concept of different/personally appealing does NOT equal "uber"/"shiny"/"bestest". And yet, here we are again, regurgitating. Ok.
I'm going to ignore the fact that you've misrepresented my argument and give you one more thoughtful response.
There are three questions that I hope are being taken into account for any game feature being implemented in Pantheon. They are as follows:
1 - Is the feature consistent with the game's tenets?
2 - Is the feature consistent with the simulated game world?
3 - Does the feature enhance the game experience?
The reasoning behind the first question is obvious and ensures that the product we are all delivered is in line with what we've already bought into. It acts as a clear litmus-test for any potential feature.
Questions 2 and 3 are more of a balancing act. Some things may not be consistent with a virtual world, but enhance gameplay enough that it's a worthwhile trade-off. As an example, before I met my partner I didn't have a "LF Girfriend" tag floating above my head (some women may argue otherwise), nevertheless, the utility of an LFGroup tag in-game more than out-weighs any potential loss of immersion that that feature creates. Conversly, some features may make the game more realistic, but would definitely hinder the game experience, potentially even making it unplayable. For instance, a feature could be implemented where every 2 hours you crossed your legs and hopped around in circles until you properly relieved yourself (-2 to speed, -5 dexterity... failure to do so properly yields an additional -5 charisma and 10dmg/tick from icing in cold environments). This unarguably would make the game world more 'realistic' but would do so at a significant cost to the game experience.
What you are requesting is a feature that makes an (albeit, small) violation of question 2 (A crystalline sword should look like a crystalline sword--not the sword of flames, just because someone thinks that it looks better). The question then becomes is the enhancement in game experience enough to counter this? For you, clearly the answer to this is yes. For me the answer is no. In fact, to the contrary, it actually detracts somewhat from my experience, and I'll take a moment to explain why I feel this way.
Back around the time of the Omen's of War expansion in Everquest, before any form of re-skinning was available in the game, you could tell a lot from a toon just from visual inspection alone. I knew the rangers that were actively farming GoD still--most were weilding elf-shoes. You could tell the ones who were in PoTime from their Timespinners. You could tell a lot about where people were in progression, or what areas they farmed just from visual inspection alone. The point is that actual in-game information was being conveyed. This was no longer the case when all of the ornamentation was introduced. All you saw were peoples personal taste in appearance, and a level of depth to the game world was lost.
Aenra said:@Kilsin uses the "tank wearing robes" argument to discard an entire system. Even though we've covered it, even though we all agree it would not make it in in ANY shape or form. That it is at best a strawman and an invalid one, so why employ it. And yet, again, here it is, as a contra-argument... well done Kil :)
@Rachael cannot "even articulate" his reasoning as he puts it, so i guess that's ok. Good to know people have self-awareness. We wouldn't want to live in a (virtual) world where things happen without our understanding why, now would we, lol.
@Gromulent uses the "best looking gear" argument.. again.. i would assume he has i) neither read my posts above, or ii) have the immense ability (joking) to envision a situation where players do not care about the "bestest", and simply wish for a simple, humbler(?) or plainer appearance. He sticks to the shiny. Even though that too, apart from addressed, should have been obvious as to the why it is not the case. Appearance slots would NOT be "shinier" than his big shiny sword. Not the system's intent. Reading comprehension is a must for forum participation guys, really.
@Elrandir uses (like Gromulent above) the "epic" looking argument again, only in inverse. He too has neither read my posts nor came to envision a scenario where the concept of different/personally appealing does NOT equal "uber"/"shiny"/"bestest". And yet, here we are again, regurgitating. Ok.
Need i honestly type the obvious? It is an exercise in vain, am aware. But look at your conservatism. Either in the actual thinking process, or its fruits. You employ arguments that do not stand or have been already addressed so as to discard an entire system that would both a) attract more players and b) enrich the Pantheon word further. At NO, NO consequences, whatsoever, to any of you.
I rest my case.. :)
Wow Aenra you are one angry person. You have your opinion, others have theirs, SIMPLE AS THAT! I don't need to justify or give any reasons why I don't like such a system, I just don’t. Try having a respectable conversation and not attack people for having a differing opinion. If you want to run around looking like whatever you want, put that gear on, what’s so hard about that? I feel you should not look like a lower end foot soldier with appearance gear but have the stats of your raided/crafted awesome gear (or vice versa). It breaks immersion. If you want to RP, then RP but don't raid in your RP armour and expect to do much. Sorry this OPINION makes you so angry.
I gave you an example of what I wouldn't mind in an apperance slot/change otion, I said that it should be very strict if anything. Doesn't change how I feel about it as a whole but I wouldn't quit the game because of it.
Also, try using the right pronouns... it’s not like my name is hard and confusing or anything.... and if you don't know a gender maybe use a neutral one like "they" said or "they" did, what about "them", not everyone behind a keyboard is a guy (I know so hard to believe!)
Rachael