Krixus said:You are frequently telling other people their opinions don't matter. It diminishes it for him, and many others, and if you can't understand why then why even bother having a discourse about it? He explained why in his post that you quoted and replied to. Come on...
If his opinion didn't matter to me, I wouldn't ask him to elaborate.
Look at it this way. If there is a toggle so you specifically don't have to see appearance gear, then it is fundamentally impossible for it to diminish anything for you specifically.
Client-side-only aesthetics that can be disabled affect no one except for the people who decided to check the box.
Liav said:Redacted.
LMAO, you are starting to look like me man :P I saw it before this so, this is funny lol.
But on topic, I'm tore on this subject because I like appearence slots mainly because from eq2 top end gear was **** looking.
I would be satisfied since there is going to be a mechanic to rotate gear quickly based on enviroment, that one of those rotations can just be appearence gear if the gear in pantheon was good looking and unique enough. But still, kinda torn.
Liav said:Krixus said:You are frequently telling other people their opinions don't matter. It diminishes it for him, and many others, and if you can't understand why then why even bother having a discourse about it? He explained why in his post that you quoted and replied to. Come on...
If his opinion didn't matter to me, I wouldn't ask him to elaborate.
Look at it this way. If there is a toggle so you specifically don't have to see appearance gear, then it is fundamentally impossible for it to diminish anything for you specifically.
Client-side-only aesthetics that can be disabled affect no one except for the people who decided to check the box.
I must respecfully disagree with the bold statement. if such appearance gear exists then it becomes plausible for the devs to design crap looking gear and then just say "if you dont like the looks then use the appearance toggle." this would affect everyone!
now that isnt to say that brad and the team would take this route, but it opens a door to it.
I've seen the "army of best in slot" excuse again and again despite being refuted months ago in this very thread.
In EQ, guilds simply didn't have full best in slot. You saw a few people who managed to get the "best" weapons or that very distinct robe, but never did everyone have all of the best items. That was because, unlike themepark MMOs of today, those items were both rare and contested. By the time most people got a few of the top end items from an expansion, there was already new content releasing.
Granted, its a big assumption that Pantheon's development will move at the same pace as classic EQ's, but I would venture to guess that even the most hardcore players will not be achieving and obtaining everything before newer, different items replace them on their wishlist.
Beyond that, I'd also guess that with "situational gear" being something of greater importance, its likely there will be far more variety than what we saw in EQ. That alone would put to rest the clone army dispute.
I agree with you to an extent Dullahan but you're forgetting that this isn't 1999. The concept of "best in slot" wasn't thoroughly ingrained in MMO culture.
The internet is vastly different now than it was then. It isn't going to be anywhere near as difficult as it was in EQ to get things done just because of how information is propagated today. If Pantheon turns out to be that innovative that it can defeat modern information culture, I will literally boil and eat my own shoes.
If Pantheon's raiding is purely contested then I'm going to be severely disappointed. I do not want to be on a ******* bat phone.
Two more reasons why I would rather not see appearance gear:
1) PvP - While Pantheon isn't really being designed around PvP, presumably there will be some PvP servers. If that's the case, people should be able to size up their opponents by visual inspection.
2) It may create unknown restrictions for the developers. Here's an example (which has nothing to do with anything that's been talked about for Pantheon, just something that might be cool but could be complicated by appearance slots):
An environment object could be attached to certain enemies or classes of enemies. Weapons or armor could then be implemented in Pantheon that perform like Sting from the LotR, either glowing or changing shape when the player is in the presence of one of these environments. It would add a level of heightened awareness if say, you're adventuring through a dungeon of spectres that are normally invisible to anyone without some sort of IvU spell, but suddenly you notice that your groupmate’s sword begins letting off a subtle glow, alerting you to danger.
While a scenario like that hasn't been talked about for Pantheon, something like that might be unnecessarily complicated to implement if people were using appearance gear for adventuring.
Elrandir said:Two more reasons why I would rather not see appearance gear:
1) PvP - While Pantheon isn't really being designed around PvP, presumably there will be some PvP servers. If that's the case, people should be able to size up their opponents by visual inspection.
Easily resolved by having the ability to look at another player's current buffs, or having the player's class easily located on the target window. I would argue that these game features should exist any independent of appearance gear.
Elrandir said:2) It may create unknown restrictions for the developers. Here's an example (which has nothing to do with anything that's been talked about for Pantheon, just something that might be cool but could be complicated by appearance slots):
An environment object could be attached to certain enemies or classes of enemies. Weapons or armor could then be implemented in Pantheon that perform like Sting from the LotR, either glowing or changing shape when the player is in the presence of one of these environments. It would add a level of heightened awareness if say, you're adventuring through a dungeon of spectres that are normally invisible to anyone without some sort of IvU spell, but suddenly you notice that your groupmate’s sword begins letting off a subtle glow, alerting you to danger.
While a scenario like that hasn't been talked about for Pantheon, something like that might be unnecessarily complicated to implement if people were using appearance gear for adventuring.
I can think of ways to code around this personally, but even so, shouldn't take as much development effort as you think unless I'm vastly underestimating things. It should, in my opinion, be my choice to display a weapon with that effect, and my choice alone.
Pseudocode:
1) If weapon with X effect equipped, goto 2
2) If enemy
3) Initiate particle effect on weapon with X effect equipped
This is obviously super simplified, but I don't think it'd be a terrible amount of effort to make a conditional particle effect that isn't too server intensive. However, I'm not a programmer as a profession.
Liav said:I agree with you to an extent Dullahan but you're forgetting that this isn't 1999. The concept of "best in slot" wasn't thoroughly ingrained in MMO culture.
The internet is vastly different now than it was then. It isn't going to be anywhere near as difficult as it was in EQ to get things done just because of how information is propagated today. If Pantheon turns out to be that innovative that it can defeat modern information culture, I will literally boil and eat my own shoes.
If Pantheon's raiding is purely contested then I'm going to be severely disappointed. I do not want to be on a ******* bat phone.
People didn't lack a full suit of "best in slot" gear because of a lack of info; I'm pretty sure everyone in classic EQ knew outside of raids, ykesha was the sword to get, and shiny metallic robes was the robe to get. They definitely knew about cryosilk, lustrous and all of the other gear from gods and dragons, so it certainly wasn't even for a lack of wanting. It was purely because items were harder to get, rarer, and also contested.
If Pantheon raiding isn't purely contested, I will be severely disappointed. The thing is, I say that knowing that there is a strong chance I won't even be able to participate, but I still want those items to exist and to remain prestigious so that if I myself or anyone else do manage to obtain them have something to be proud of.
Its not all about the casual, and it isn't even about me. That was the EQ difference.
They will remain prestigious Dullahan.. honest to god, tell me you're pretending rather than being incapable of grasping this..
They will always be and remain prestigious. Appearance slots, if and in whatever a form, will have nothing to do with this. There should be motivation for hard content gear, there should be motivation for dedication period.
- No one emulates your prestigious gear
- No one makes 'shinier'/'prettier' gear so as for someone to use it and devalue yours (yours figuratively)
- due to both of the above, the results of your efforts will remain both instantly identifiable and unique
Gear you worked hard to earn will be distinct, easily identifiable and because earned, worn (obviously) only if and after being earned. We are not in any way even touching upon the gear/progression/carrot importance factor here. Why are you all so stuck on the raid gear thing? Do you read all the arguments and then simply move on to dismiss them or are they so hard to fathom?
Honestly, no offense meant, let me say that again ok? But i swear, i feel an easy 75% here has yet to even comprehend the topic. Either because they're so blind-sighted they refuse to look sideways, or because they have a 'specific' model of wardrobe implementation in mind that will not happen here anyway. Even we don't want it.. Either case should have been rendered obsolete/clear after all these pages..and yet..
(because someone may yet again fail to grasp the point, no, this is not about me disrespecting opinions. If you say no, it's no. I get you and respect you. It is when you say no 'because my prestigious gear will be ruined' that i am honestly baffled..)
Dullahan said:If Pantheon raiding isn't purely contested, I will be severely disappointed. The thing is, I say that knowing that there is a strong chance I won't even be able to participate, but I still want those items to exist and to remain prestigious so that if I myself or anyone else do manage to obtain them have something to be proud of.
If I have to get phone calls at 4 in the morning to kill pixel dragons, I am done with Pantheon. ******* DONE.
That is all I have to contribute to this horrible thread.
Aenra said:They will remain prestigious Dullahan.. honest to god, tell me you're pretending rather than being incapable of grasping this..
They will always be and remain prestigious. Appearance slots, if and in whatever a form, will have nothing to do with this. There should be motivation for hard content gear, there should be motivation for dedication period.
- No one emulates your prestigious gear
- No one makes 'shinier'/'prettier' gear so as for someone to use it and devalue yours (yours figuratively)
- due to both of the above, the results of your efforts will remain both instantly identifiable and unique
Gear you worked hard to earn will be distinct, easily identifiable and because earned, worn (obviously) only if and after being earned. We are not in any way even touching upon the gear/progression/carrot importance factor here. Why are you all so stuck on the raid gear thing? Do you read all the arguments and then simply move on to dismiss them or are they so hard to fathom?
Honestly, no offense meant, let me say that again ok? But i swear, i feel an easy 75% here has yet to even comprehend the topic. Either because they're so blind-sighted they refuse to look sideways, or because they have a 'specific' model of wardrobe implementation in mind that will not happen here anyway. Even we don't want it.. Either case should have been rendered obsolete/clear after all these pages..and yet..
(because someone may yet again fail to grasp the point, no, this is not about me disrespecting opinions. If you say no, it's no. I get you and respect you. It is when you say no 'because my prestigious gear will be ruined' that i am honestly baffled..)
If you're going to be condescending, at least take the time to read and understand whats being said. That entire post was in regard to the "need" for cosmetic gear because "everyone ends up looking alike." My point was not that you couldn't have prestigious items with cosmetic armor, but simply that the aforementioned argument is not even valid in a game where items are harder to obtain, rare and contested. Despite having a much smaller pool of items to choose from in early EQ, players, especially at end game, did not all have the best gear.
Dullahan said:If you're going to be condescending, at least take the time to read and understand whats being said.
I have had, still don't, no intention to appear as condescending. If i somehow gave that impression, my apologies. Am aware it is impossible for everyone to have BiS gear, or near enough. I got your point. Partly that sometimes (in my constant fear of making wall of texts) i stick to the point sans the logic leading me there, partly other posts having been made in the meantime, i admit misunderstandings can occur.. As they have :)
So as a summation, practice defeats the sound logic of your argument:
You are correct in stating that the odds for a clone army are zero. Nada. Indeed. That does not however eliminate the chances of three people standing next to each other wearing the same "best" robe. Not everything alike between the lot of them, just the chest. All three, next to one another, same thing. Simple as that. What does the fourth person notice? Their different helm (if they have it on /show at that), their different ..shoes? Or the fact that they are ..effectively.. wearing the same thing? Get me now?
Again, to anticipate the response, you could say 'ok fine, you got something there, but what are the chances of it happening'? Log in to any "big" MMO, stand near an auction house or central hub and tell me. Not always, no, but frequent? Yes. Which leads me to the second point. Systems should at least be meant to facilitate a large variety of criteria and possibilities. The fact that the wardrobe/appearance one can incorporate even the statistical unlikelihood of the above is a merit. Not a detractor. And improbability or not, we have all seen it. We have also seen the jokes made, haven't we? "We dress from the same tailor!" "You stole my clothes again?" etc etc. Those jokes have a basis. The basis of the statistically unlikely occuring.
- so yes to a system that eliminates this, yes to a system that eliminates this sans devaluing what should not, ever, be devalued. The hard work, the contesting, the pride if you will.
(and again, my apologies if i offended prior. I respect the fact that you are 'pro-contested' even though you feel you may not benefit from it. It denotes a good poster. Just.. one i disagree with :p )
I guess it depends on how much variation someone thinks is OK. I personally think its fine for some people to be wearing the robe that I have. Having everyone look unique is just an unrealistic, unobtainable goal, even if you can choose from piece of armor you previously obtained. However, in classic EQ, casters had over 15-20 different robe options. Just those with decent stats you had najena, oracle, green silken, kedge, ishva, shiny metallic, cryosilk, carmine, insidious, apothic, blighted, and crimson robe of alendine. Those are just the ones off the top of my head.
I still considered EQ to be somewhat limited, as there were only 2 or 3 non-raid robes that players would aim to have at higher levels. Nevertheless, it was uncommon to see everyone wearing the same robe. That is all I am saying. It was a much more open ended experience unlike MMOs today where everyone goes through the same area, and without fail, obtains the exact same suit of gear. I think in a game like Pantheon with greater emphasis on situational gear and better itemization it shouldn't be that hard to keep everyone from looking the same - without a set of appearance armor that is displayed over your actual gear.
I don't remember anyone bitching about looking the same as everyone else. Could just be me though. Maybe it's a new thought process that has been instilled form the new gen MMOs that everyone wants to look unique. Maybe they should take up dressing barbie dolls or cosplay? :)
No need for unproductive sarcasm. I'd assume one could easily reply to you by pointing out the immaturity behind chosing to chase pixelated carrots all day long, to the exclusion of anything else an entire virtual world could offer. A wilful, deliberate exclusion. But as stated, that would be unproductive; and quite rude! I accept your opinion, even if it amounts to finding it superfluous if not downright stupid. Mayhap you can do likewise. After all, unlike me, you appear to be the grown up here, i'm still stuck with my Barbie dolls. So be a role model :)
As to your quite valid question..this is one aspect of the appearance equation that this discussion just gravitated towards. Easily the least important one, but there you go ^^
The PVP issue for Apperance gear isnt really valid. I have played on highly competivie PVP servers guess what. When I was in an open zone and could be inspcted by none guild mates. I was rocking lvl 1 cloth armor. I switched back into my ultra rare raid gear only when I was expecting PVP or running a group/raid. I even did it when appearance armor was added.
Liav said:I agree with you to an extent Dullahan but you're forgetting that this isn't 1999. The concept of "best in slot" wasn't thoroughly ingrained in MMO culture.
The internet is vastly different now than it was then. It isn't going to be anywhere near as difficult as it was in EQ to get things done just because of how information is propagated today. If Pantheon turns out to be that innovative that it can defeat modern information culture, I will literally boil and eat my own shoes.
If Pantheon's raiding is purely contested then I'm going to be severely disappointed. I do not want to be on a ******* bat phone.
You are right^.
But fortuneately, this is a MMORPG... and the concept of "best in slot" is not engrained as an entitlement in people's mind. Building their Character is what they strive for.. but that is a year long process. Not something that they will peter out on, or get frustrated over.... or be able to head to the Item Mall and spend their frustrations away, because they ran out of patiencs. Big difference between a MMO and a MMORPG.
Additionally, I think you are wrong, it will be more difficult to get things done in Pantheon, because Pantheon will require more group work. Heck, it will require you to get your armor fixed in Cities by Craftsmen.. and if your forget, you could be a liability after a 3h pug.
Oh, and that kewl peice of Armor you want, is not longer spawning in that dungeon... people have been trying for 3 weeks to get that mob to spawn... but now rumors have it, that same mob was seen down in the marshes... miles away from where it was last seen.
So.. go get your "BoS" peice of Armor you have looked up... Visionary Realms is waiting to see if your guild can track, or know where the mob will be next. And meanwhile the server is moving on & maturing without you..
Millions of people played EQ/EQ2/WoW after the rush, and are simply use to the Player Guides as a source of info. Websites & Player Guides are all they know... to go shopping & look up an item on a list.. and then go track down that mob and kill it.
Pantheon is going to be so different from that upon release, that most people will have no carrot to follow.... nothing dangling over their head to guide them... and they will become overwhelmed by Pantheon's openendedness. Worried that they are falling behind, or what others guids are doing, or have found.
Constantly looking at the internet for a carrot... while most people are hiding that info from newbies, whom happen to rely on and use the internet as a guide.
Hieromonk said:Liav said:I agree with you to an extent Dullahan but you're forgetting that this isn't 1999. The concept of "best in slot" wasn't thoroughly ingrained in MMO culture.
The internet is vastly different now than it was then. It isn't going to be anywhere near as difficult as it was in EQ to get things done just because of how information is propagated today. If Pantheon turns out to be that innovative that it can defeat modern information culture, I will literally boil and eat my own shoes.
If Pantheon's raiding is purely contested then I'm going to be severely disappointed. I do not want to be on a ******* bat phone.
You are right^.
But fortuneately, this is a MMORPG... and the concept of "best in slot" is not engrained as an entitlement in people's mind. Building their Character is what they strive for.. but that is a year long process. Not something that they will peter out on, or get frustrated over.... or be able to head to the Item Mall and spend their frustrations away, because they ran out of patiencs. Big difference between a MMO and a MMORPG.
Additionally, I think you are wrong, it will be more difficult to get things done in Pantheon, because Pantheon will require more group work. Heck, it will require you to get your armor fixed in Cities by Craftsmen.. and if your forget, you could be a liability after a 3h pug. Please back this statement up with Proof from something Brad or another Dev has stated. Because Brad has already said NO ARMOR DAMAGE REPAIR
Oh, and that kewl peice of Armor you want, is not longer spawning in that dungeon... people have been trying for 3 weeks to get that mob to spawn... but now rumors have it, that same mob was seen down in the marshes... miles away from where it was last seen. Please back this statement up with something said by Brad or anothewr Dev
So.. go get your "BoS" peice of Armor you have looked up... Visionary Realms is waiting to see if your guild can track, or know where the mob will be next. And meanwhile the server is moving on & maturing without you... Please back your statement up with something said by Brad or another Dev
Millions of people played EQ/EQ2/WoW after the rush, and are simply use to the Player Guides as a source of info. Websites & Player Guides are all they know... to go shopping & look up an item on a list.. and then go track down that mob and kill it.
Pantheon is going to be so different from that upon release, that most people will have no carrot to follow.... nothing dangling over their head to guide them... and they will become overwhelmed by Pantheon's openendedness. Worried that they are falling behind, or what others guids are doing, or have found.
Constantly looking at the internet for a carrot... while most people are hiding that info from newbies, whom happen to rely on and use the internet as a guide.
Niien said:I don't remember anyone bitching about looking the same as everyone else. Could just be me though. Maybe it's a new thought process that has been instilled form the new gen MMOs that everyone wants to look unique. Maybe they should take up dressing barbie dolls or cosplay? :)
I've had issues with gear appearance since the days of everyone wearing hideous missmatching armor. It has nothing to do with any new generation or any of that nonsense. I enjoy creating interesting and unique armor sets based of color, decoration, and themes. This gives me yet another thing to do while in game that gives me joy and keeps me invested. I simply do not understand all the negativity towards this feature at all other than maybe stubborness or some misunderstanding.
I could however see the argument against such a feature if it were implemented within a cash shop with no other options for acquisition. I don't think we have to worry about that though.
Didn't read all the pages because it's a lot, so pardon me if it's been said...
I don't have a problem with it either way. I see the both sides of it. It doesn't particularly bother me that people reskin items to look different, or wear armour that looks different than what they have on. Why should it? As long as it's not important, such as in pvp, let them enjoy it how they want. That being said, I do think it should be limited to items that class can actually use. IE: If you can't use swords, you can't skin a sword to your weapon. Armour should be limited to armour skins, so on.
I also like the idea of a social tab, allowing you to switch to social gear easier than swapping out every single item. When the social tab is active, armour doesn't function.
Something I haven't seen done yet, and is probably too difficult to do, is allow adornments to pieces. Customize it in small ways. For example: Purchase and add spikes to armour, or gloves. Add a different hilt to a sword. Change the wrappings on a mace. Similar to reskinning but leaves the base object as is.
I'm curious how many are against changing the looks of items are in favour of a "hide helmet" or "hide cloak" option?
Well I really like being able to choose the look of my gear.
In EQ, it was great when you got a cool new item that people could see that, but it was AWFUL when you got a good new item and it looked AWFUL (and it often did).
There are, of course, some restrictions that should be applied to stop any 'silliness'.
You must have worn an item before to make another look like it (ie. it must be of your class and 'soulbound' as necessary - you can't just borrow something)
The item must be of the same class as the item you are actually wearing (No wizards in plate or warriors in robes)
No stupid shizzle (You know what I mean. Fricking beach-wear, baseball caps, themed holiday costumes, etc)
Dyes are fine, but no hot pinks or neons or such.
I also like to be able to 'hide' helmet and cloak. Never liked the look of either really.
PvPers should perhaps 'lose' their cosmetic look when they are in contested areas. TBH I don't really care about PvPers and surely, when an enemy is within visual range it's too damn late to worry "is that a -1 Shield of Poop or a +10 Shield of OMGURSoDead?"
Could certain high end items have more than one graphic option? Or perhaps a (hard) quest that could be done once you have a certain item, to give that item a new appearance? At the end of the quest you can pick from a few select skins for that item. The one item may have three or four looks but those looks would always relate to that one item. It's extra work for devs but so is making a ton of appearance skins.
Everyone would know know you worked hard to get X item, and then people can know you put the extra oomph in to get a different appearance.