azaya said:IMO what you wear should be what is seen. If it don't have stats buts looks pretty, ok, but you still have to wear it to look that way.
I just don't see a point in investing dev resources into appearance slots. Its extra code, extra data and additional UI elements and thus extra time we don't get to play. In addition its immersion breaking and subverts the following tenant "A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige."
Prestige, in the sense of equipment, is not meaningful if visual identification is not reliable.
That said I don't mind dyes, as they do not distort the underlying appearance of the gear greatly. It would still be recognizable.
A compromise might be to have a load out system where you could macro in different sets of gear, though it should take some amount of time (think casting bar) to fully re-dress and may mean you could be interrupted. IE: Mob stuns you/prevents you from making the swap. Even so this is extra code that really doesn't need to be in there just to satisfy convienence.
Whether you think is a waste or not, its in. Also, Kilsin gets a little testy when people claim VR is wasting resources. Just an FYI.
My Enchanter will carry 2 Wurmslayers like this pic because I want to roleplay a super strong melee Enchanter. Hopefully people won't complain about my roleplaying style. If they do I'll say it's ok, you can just turn cosmetics off and not see them on me, or your friends, or anyone else in the game!
Pantz said:My Enchanter will carry 2 Wurmslayers like this pic because I want to roleplay a super strong melee Enchanter. Hopefully people won't complain about my roleplaying style. If they do I'll say it's ok, you can just turn cosmetics off and not see them on me, or your friends, or anyone else in the game!
Sounds perfect to me. Alternatively, they can turn them back on when you are not around. Or they can get off their high horse and accept that someone is different than them.
No different than lowering particle effects and changing nameplate options before starting a raid and then turning them back on when joining a group.
Pantz said:My Enchanter will carry 2 Wurmslayers like this pic because I want to roleplay a super strong melee Enchanter. Hopefully people won't complain about my roleplaying style. If they do I'll say it's ok, you can just turn cosmetics off and not see them on me, or your friends, or anyone else in the game!
If they are appearance drops from in-game, then you will be able to enjoy them and others can toggle the appearance off, if they are actual weapons and you equip them, everyone will see them and you will not be able to cast any spells on your Enchanter as they will all most likely fail, so you may get some complaints for the lack of buffs and mezzes more than the look of the weapons lol :D
Kilsin said:If they are appearance drops from in-game, then you will be able to enjoy them and others can toggle the appearance off, if they are actual weapons and you equip them, everyone will see them and you will not be able to cast any spells on your Enchanter as they will all most likely fail, so you may get some complaints for the lack of buffs and mezzes more than the look of the weapons lol :D
As far as I know, Enchanters are played like... Cast Clarity/Breeze, /follow healer and say BRB door; then go watch TV. :D
Pantz said:Kilsin said:If they are appearance drops from in-game, then you will be able to enjoy them and others can toggle the appearance off, if they are actual weapons and you equip them, everyone will see them and you will not be able to cast any spells on your Enchanter as they will all most likely fail, so you may get some complaints for the lack of buffs and mezzes more than the look of the weapons lol :D
As far as I know, Enchanters are played like... Cast Clarity/Breeze, /follow healer and say BRB door; then go watch TV. :D
What! You have seen our streams and videos man, you know our Enchanters are better than that, so are all of our classes! ;)
For gear and weapon appearance I would love to see a mixture
-Acessories to pimp gear with on the drawing board;unlocked with certain accomplishments
-Effects of alignment shift on your gear
-The freedom to change character appearance ingame
-If tattoos are to be a thing ,not only a hide-helmet but also hide -chestpiece option(if they make an effort to make cool tattoos I think we need to be able to show them)
I'll be playing either enchanter-wizard ,just need to wait and see how they differ <3
Beefcake said:azaya said:IMO what you wear should be what is seen. If it don't have stats buts looks pretty, ok, but you still have to wear it to look that way.
I just don't see a point in investing dev resources into appearance slots. Its extra code, extra data and additional UI elements and thus extra time we don't get to play. In addition its immersion breaking and subverts the following tenant "A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige."
Prestige, in the sense of equipment, is not meaningful if visual identification is not reliable.
That said I don't mind dyes, as they do not distort the underlying appearance of the gear greatly. It would still be recognizable.
A compromise might be to have a load out system where you could macro in different sets of gear, though it should take some amount of time (think casting bar) to fully re-dress and may mean you could be interrupted. IE: Mob stuns you/prevents you from making the swap. Even so this is extra code that really doesn't need to be in there just to satisfy convienence.
Whether you think is a waste or not, its in. Also, Kilsin gets a little testy when people claim VR is wasting resources. Just an FYI.
Yes I see that after looking at the FAQ, sad but true.
I suppose I'll be playing with it turned off permantly.
Also good to know that your an authority on what Kislin will think. But ok :)
azaya said:Beefcake said:azaya said:IMO what you wear should be what is seen. If it don't have stats buts looks pretty, ok, but you still have to wear it to look that way.
I just don't see a point in investing dev resources into appearance slots. Its extra code, extra data and additional UI elements and thus extra time we don't get to play. In addition its immersion breaking and subverts the following tenant "A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige."
Prestige, in the sense of equipment, is not meaningful if visual identification is not reliable.
That said I don't mind dyes, as they do not distort the underlying appearance of the gear greatly. It would still be recognizable.
A compromise might be to have a load out system where you could macro in different sets of gear, though it should take some amount of time (think casting bar) to fully re-dress and may mean you could be interrupted. IE: Mob stuns you/prevents you from making the swap. Even so this is extra code that really doesn't need to be in there just to satisfy convienence.
Whether you think is a waste or not, its in. Also, Kilsin gets a little testy when people claim VR is wasting resources. Just an FYI.
Yes I see that after looking at the FAQ, sad but true.
I suppose I'll be playing with it turned off permantly.
Also good to know that your an authority on what Kislin will think. But ok :)
Beefcake and I am sure many others have recently seen me reply to certain topics that said "X would be a waste of resources"or "Y would be a waste of resources and dev time", when in fact, we have many different teams working on many different things, nothing we consider is a waste of anything, if it was, we wouldn't bother doing it, so I think that is what he was referring too, unless someone has made an MMORPOG and understands the development process and what goes into it and how our resources are managed, they cannot understand how resources work, especially to claim something is a waste ;)
All accomplished adventure gear will make me look very fluffy in a prestige way
and when players take a peek at the cosmetic version of me, they get the chance to see me in the nudes whenever they like <3
For the adventure gear I like the idea that extra looks for gear are linked to faction ranks
My brief thoughts on this:
-Not a huge fan of cosmetic/town clothes tabs
-Not a huge fan of having to change my clothes to go into a dungeon/raid
-Am a huge fan of being able to dye parts of gear pieces
-Am a huge fan of being able to wear robes/cloaks over other gear (e.g. Warrior tank wearing a cloak to hide most of his plate armor from view ala Aragorn)
-Am a huge fan of people being able to make their character look the way they want, including while raiding...but...*
*Caveat to this is wearing absolutely ridiculous things like a chicken suit or making your weapon look like a fish.
Part of the problem is many games, over time, start making their gear and weapons look ridiculous (*cough*WoW*cough*). Belts become WWE belts, swords become massive beating sticks, armor becomes huge and unwieldy, etc. In which case I find myself, in such games, using the trasmog feature to make my gear look...normal. In FF14 and WoW, I only ever used Transmog to make my gear look more ordinary, not less. The WoW gear got to looking so stupid I actually leveled a crafter to make old Vanilla WoW basic plate armor and a basic sword and shield for my Paladin to wear. I wanted him to look like a knight, not some kind of weird hybrid science fiction dragon/warrior/priest hybrid with glorious angel wings! And that's when the gear doesn't look like some kind of inflated baloon animal with a bunch of spikes, some unholy eldrich tentacle thing, and some random lighting/fire/shadow aura (I wouldn't mind the aura, if the weapon looked like a simple longsword with maybe a faint red fire aura).
Likewise in FF14, I prefer wearing simple clothes on my healer (which, granted, is a cloth wearer, so wearing a simple pair of pants, leather shoes, and a basic robe doesn't look so out of place) and in simple colors that would be affordable to non-wealthy people - in the middle ages, some dyes ("royal" purple, for example) were very expensive and hard to come by. I prefer a simple denim looking blue pant, basic leather shoes, fingerless glvoes, and a simple robe or tunic. And while I'm okay with a little flair on magical weapons, I like my swords looking like swords, not combination sawblade/dragon claw/power drill. I like my staves looking like staves with maybe a power crystal on the top, not some kind of radio/cell phone tower strapped to my back. And, sometimes, I like my cane/rod to look like just some old tree branch - unassuming looking things sometimes hide great power...
This problem is somewhat fixed if the devs just don't make equipment look crazy ridiculous to begin with...but good luck winning THAT battle. (Though I will submit that FF14 has done a decent job of having SOME "normal" looking gear).
.
TL;DR:
Customization is needed when gear looks stupid, cluttered, or over the top.
And in MMOs, high end gear will ALWAYS end up looking stupid, cluttered, or over the top.
Kilsin said:azaya said:Beefcake said:azaya said:IMO what you wear should be what is seen. If it don't have stats buts looks pretty, ok, but you still have to wear it to look that way.
I just don't see a point in investing dev resources into appearance slots. Its extra code, extra data and additional UI elements and thus extra time we don't get to play. In addition its immersion breaking and subverts the following tenant "A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige."
Prestige, in the sense of equipment, is not meaningful if visual identification is not reliable.
That said I don't mind dyes, as they do not distort the underlying appearance of the gear greatly. It would still be recognizable.
A compromise might be to have a load out system where you could macro in different sets of gear, though it should take some amount of time (think casting bar) to fully re-dress and may mean you could be interrupted. IE: Mob stuns you/prevents you from making the swap. Even so this is extra code that really doesn't need to be in there just to satisfy convienence.
Whether you think is a waste or not, its in. Also, Kilsin gets a little testy when people claim VR is wasting resources. Just an FYI.
Yes I see that after looking at the FAQ, sad but true.
I suppose I'll be playing with it turned off permantly.
Also good to know that your an authority on what Kislin will think. But ok :)
Beefcake and I am sure many others have recently seen me reply to certain topics that said "X would be a waste of resources"or "Y would be a waste of resources and dev time", when in fact, we have many different teams working on many different things, nothing we consider is a waste of anything, if it was, we wouldn't bother doing it, so I think that is what he was referring too, unless someone has made an MMORPOG and understands the development process and what goes into it and how our resources are managed, they cannot understand how resources work, especially to claim something is a waste ;)
I do appreciate your more diplomatic response. Thank you.
I suppose I'm just sensitive to deviations away from what many would think of as the classic gaming experience. That said, even though I dumped 1k on this game already I realize that I don't have any real say in how it should work, but having done so I of course want things to go in more of a classic direction. Yes, I am one of those orphaned gamers PRF is supposed to be for.
That said, I do have a clue with over 30 years of coding, design and team leading experience. No not on MMOs but many other things. I'm sure MMO development varies somewhat from traditional development. But I respect the decisions of the development team even if I don't agree with it and I find it incredibly difficult to turn off my systems design point of view.
So, while I didn't intend this to turn into something, apparently it did, and that is my fault for not staying up to date on current trends. Had I re-read the FAQ ahead of time I might not even have posted anything at all. I don’t tend to post a lot but when I do it is because I have an opinion on something I deem worth talking about, not just to bump up my post count.
Keep up the good work.
I look forward to no longer being an orphaned gamer.
-Az
azaya said:Kilsin said:azaya said:Beefcake said:azaya said:IMO what you wear should be what is seen. If it don't have stats buts looks pretty, ok, but you still have to wear it to look that way.
I just don't see a point in investing dev resources into appearance slots. Its extra code, extra data and additional UI elements and thus extra time we don't get to play. In addition its immersion breaking and subverts the following tenant "A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige."
Prestige, in the sense of equipment, is not meaningful if visual identification is not reliable.
That said I don't mind dyes, as they do not distort the underlying appearance of the gear greatly. It would still be recognizable.
A compromise might be to have a load out system where you could macro in different sets of gear, though it should take some amount of time (think casting bar) to fully re-dress and may mean you could be interrupted. IE: Mob stuns you/prevents you from making the swap. Even so this is extra code that really doesn't need to be in there just to satisfy convienence.
Whether you think is a waste or not, its in. Also, Kilsin gets a little testy when people claim VR is wasting resources. Just an FYI.
Yes I see that after looking at the FAQ, sad but true.
I suppose I'll be playing with it turned off permantly.
Also good to know that your an authority on what Kislin will think. But ok :)
Beefcake and I am sure many others have recently seen me reply to certain topics that said "X would be a waste of resources"or "Y would be a waste of resources and dev time", when in fact, we have many different teams working on many different things, nothing we consider is a waste of anything, if it was, we wouldn't bother doing it, so I think that is what he was referring too, unless someone has made an MMORPOG and understands the development process and what goes into it and how our resources are managed, they cannot understand how resources work, especially to claim something is a waste ;)
I do appreciate your more diplomatic response. Thank you.
I suppose I'm just sensitive to deviations away from what many would think of as the classic gaming experience. That said, even though I dumped 1k on this game already I realize that I don't have any real say in how it should work, but having done so I of course want things to go in more of a classic direction. Yes, I am one of those orphaned gamers PRF is supposed to be for.
That said, I do have a clue with over 30 years of coding, design and team leading experience. No not on MMOs but many other things. I'm sure MMO development varies somewhat from traditional development. But I respect the decisions of the development team even if I don't agree with it and I find it incredibly difficult to turn off my systems design point of view.
So, while I didn't intend this to turn into something, apparently it did, and that is my fault for not staying up to date on current trends. Had I re-read the FAQ ahead of time I might not even have posted anything at all. I don’t tend to post a lot but when I do it is because I have an opinion on something I deem worth talking about, not just to bump up my post count.Keep up the good work.
I look forward to no longer being an orphaned gamer.
-Az
Kilsin said:I share the same opinion as you guys, I think appearance gear is great as long as you have to remove your armour and replace it with appearance gear/weapons, I do not personally think they should replace the skin of the earned armour.
For example, if I want to put on a hooded robe as a Rogue and walk around towns looking shifty and eyeballing peoples pockets, I would need to remove my awesome raiding armour gear and lose all the benefits associated with it to wear the robe. this allows role playing and customisation to a degree without breaking immersion or allowing OP players running around in rags or cloth armour while tanking tough mobs etc.
Appearance is pretty important in my opinion and this is my personal opinion, I don't speak on behalf of the team. just sharing my thoughts as I see a lot seem to agree on these forums and FB ;)
What's wrong with tanking mobs in cloth? That's pretty funny!
Seriously though, to me it depends on how the 'chestplate of awesomesauce' actually looks. In FFXIV most of the skins of the non AF armour were pretty awful (even some AF gear wasn't exaclty pretty either.. In Rift ALL of the chain gear was dreadful and I ended up going around in a dyed wedding dress); and I like being able to change the skin to the beautiful Vanya robe. Fingers crossed the team here will do a great job in designing awesome looking gear for all levels - although we have to recognise that it's a relatively small team without Blizzard like funding so my expectations are set accordingly.
I do like the idea of dying - you can still see it's the chestpiece of awesomesauce but the blue accents make it look like YOUR chestpiece of awesomesauce.
Idrial said:What's wrong with tanking mobs in cloth? That's pretty funny!
It's double standards if they allow tanks to wear cloth appearance items over their plate and not allow casters to even wear leather appearances over their cloth. They should both have unrealistic standards or restrict them to what the same appearance armor type they currently have equipped.
I like the option to change the appearance of Gear. However on the same note the appearance should be based on what I choose.
If I do not want to see people in chicken suits instead of the epic armor they are actually wearing; give me a toggle to choose the view I wish.
It also prevents the silliness of underwear mogs.
If someone wants to see my totally wicked wardrobe choice instead of my actual gear; then I can easily suggest they toggle it; on the same note if I find the armor set looks terrible; I can change it to suit my tastes too.
Nate said:I like the option to change the appearance of Gear. However on the same note the appearance should be based on what I choose.
If I do not want to see people in chicken suits instead of the epic armor they are actually wearing; give me a toggle to choose the view I wish.
It also prevents the silliness of underwear mogs.
If someone wants to see my totally wicked wardrobe choice instead of my actual gear; then I can easily suggest they toggle it; on the same note if I find the armor set looks terrible; I can change it to suit my tastes too.
Uh, they have already given us the aforementioned toggle.
I only like appearance gear if the other gear appearance sucks. Some MMO's have horrible end game outfits/gear with little to no options. I do like enchantments and glowing stuff. I know a lot of MMO's have it so your weapons glow when you enchant them, but little to none (that I have played) allow your gear to glow. But I am getting side tracked.
Wobels said: I like Dye just for the simple fact im anal about matching. However totally against changing armor apearance like transmogrification in wow was stupid you couldnt tell what anyone had unless if you inspected. Just changing gear colors so you dont have white boots with green pants and a purple chest sure why not you can still tell what armor it is by the look.
This may have been said before, but in some games (EQ especially) a lot, if not all, of the armor models were the same. At least all items within that armor type for that race. Really the only thing that differentiated between items was the tint. So the only difference between a High Elf wearing full bronze plate and a High Elf wearing full steel plate was the color. That just makes it a lot easier for the art department. I doubt that'll primarily be the case in Pantheon because VR is not lazy, but I also doubt every single item will have a unique model. In the last stream (around the 33:36 mark) they talked about how this would be near impossible. Also from the FAQ: "The game world will contain thousands if not tens of thousands of items. That said, there can never be a 1:1 ratio between what you are specifically wearing and how you appear to other players." There will inevitably be some items where the only difference is their color so you wouldn't be able to be 100% sure just by looking at it if it's dyed. But I definitely liked coming up with different color schemes in EQ.
Anyway, there may be dyes in addition to cosmetic armor skins and that would probably be ideal. But regardless, I think they would still fall under the cosmetic gear category, so if anyone is viewing you in Adventure mode, they will see the raw, unchanged color of your actual armor.
Bazgrim said:Anyway, there may be dyes in addition to cosmetic armor skins and that would probably be ideal. But regardless, I think they would still fall under the cosmetic gear category, so if anyone is viewing you in Adventure mode, they will see the raw, unchanged color of your actual armor.
I think it would be okay if the dyes worked for player crafted armors as well.
Iksar said:Bazgrim said:Anyway, there may be dyes in addition to cosmetic armor skins and that would probably be ideal. But regardless, I think they would still fall under the cosmetic gear category, so if anyone is viewing you in Adventure mode, they will see the raw, unchanged color of your actual armor.
I think it would be okay if the dyes worked for player crafted armors as well.
Of course. Regardless of how you acquire an item and even whether or not it has a unique skin, it should be able to be tinted with dye in the color of your choosing. But that tint would always be hidden when being viewed in Adventure mode to reveal the complete original appearance of that item.
What I can't decide is, assuming there is gear that is specifically Cosmetic, whether or not you should be able to also tint the appearance of that Cosmetic gear to further customize your appearance. We still don't know enough about how cosmetics will be applied. I think this is what makes most sense in my head right now:
- You have your regular inventory where equipped items contribute to your stats. These are the items that are viewed in Adventure mode.
- You have a second inventory of only item slots that are visible. (ex: Head, Chest, Legs, Feet, Arms, Hands, Primary, Secondary) These are the items that are viewed in Cosmetic mode. Perhaps even regular items can be placed in these slots, but only change your appearance, NOT your stats. There may also be items that can only be placed in Cosmetic slots. This is basically how EQ2's system worked.
- Dyes are applied to the items themselves, but can be hidden by viewing in Adventure mode. (Example: I am wearing a Bronze Breastplate. My Cosmetic Chest slot is empty. I apply purple dye to my Bronze Breastplate. Viewing me in Cosmetic mode makes my chest appear purple. Viewing me in Adventure mode makes my chest appear bronze, per the original appearance before it was dyed. Inspecting me and hovering over my chest slot will show that the item was dyed.)
- Cosmetic slots override dyes. (Example: I am wearing a Bronze Breastplate. I loot a Crested Darksteel Breastplate, which is a Cosmetic item that can only be placed in the Cosmetic Chest slot. I like the appearance of it, so I equip it. Regardless of whether or not my Bronze Breastplate is dyed, viewing me in Cosmetic mode will show the Crested Darksteel Breastplate. Viewing me in Adventure mode will reveal the original appearance of the Bronze Breastplate.)
- Cosmetic items can be dyed. (Example: I am wearing the same Bronze Breastplate. I apply purple dye to the Crested Darksteel Breastplate. Then when I place the Crested Darksteel Breastplate in the Cosmetic Chest slot, and am viewed in Cosmetic Mode my chest will appear to be a purple-tinted version of the Crested Darksteel Breastplate. Inspecting me and clicking on the Cosmetic Tab will show what item is in my Cosmetic Chest slot with a tooltip showing the color to which it was dyed. Of course, as always, viewing me in Adventure mode will reveal the appearance of the Bronze Breastplate.) In fact, the same principle could be applied if regular items can be equipped to Cosmetic slots.
- Applying a dye to an item that is already dyed will completely remove the old dye and only show the most recent dye.
- Dyes can be removed with a solvent purchased at a vendor.
Kilsin said:Pantz said:My Enchanter will carry 2 Wurmslayers like this pic because I want to roleplay a super strong melee Enchanter. Hopefully people won't complain about my roleplaying style. If they do I'll say it's ok, you can just turn cosmetics off and not see them on me, or your friends, or anyone else in the game!
If they are appearance drops from in-game, then you will be able to enjoy them and others can toggle the appearance off, if they are actual weapons and you equip them, everyone will see them and you will not be able to cast any spells on your Enchanter as they will all most likely fail, so you may get some complaints for the lack of buffs and mezzes more than the look of the weapons lol :D
So what you are saying is our weapons will help us cast spells? Hmmm... and the plot thickens!
But, onto the topic, i love having appearance items, but I'm just not a huge fan of paying for them, i think if there are appearance items they should be earned. Tradeable, but earned. So like say a raid boss drops this appearance only cloak, sure it's tradeable, but chances are it's gonna cost you tons of in game currency to get it. So a level 1 can have it, but it won't be attainable by them.
