Gnog said: Could someone point me to the Game Tenet that this cosmetic mode supports?
I'd argue it could fit in a few of them, honestly. Such as:
It could be argued that cosmetic *use* of items (not that there will be tons of cosmetic only items) is content. The second point is more important, as having items able to be equipped to a cosmetic appearance tab increases the longevity and desirability of many different items. So cooler looking items that may not have the best stats will hold value much longer than without the appearance tab. The third point could be argued to tie into being able to show off your power and prestige, though it might be more future proofing. If you end up with some really rare or epic class weapon but after an expansion it isn't as good, you still have the option to show off that you completed an epic task in the past.
Gnog said: if cosmetics fit into those tenets, just about anything does.
The tenets are general core beliefs, not everything in the scope of the game fit to a T or rather is defined explicitly in them.
Even in real life with well written laws, lawyers can find and fight for broad interpretations.
Can't change the fact you hate the idea of being able to toggle cosmetics for others or not, but to say it does not fit is just as frivolous. It doesn't explicitly preclude the idea anywhere in the tenets either so this is an entirely silly thing to bring up.
If they are putting it in the game, it fits in their vision.
Gnog said: Sure, you can argue anything you want, but some arguments are weak and others are frivolous. This one is somewhere near the latter. The Game Tenets matter and sticking to them prevents the kind of poor decisions that made their way into existing MMOs, and these cosmetic rules and configurations don't fit well into any of the tenets reasonably construed.
Haters gonna hate.
Gnog said: Yes, I hate the cosmetic system that appears to be making its way into the game. I think it will be a net negative on my gaming experience. But I'll almost certainly tolerate it. Regardless, I think it's worth pointing out that nothing in the Game Tenets previews this kind of cosmetic system. The Game Tenets persuaded me to back the game and continue to follow and care about its development. When I see something that doesn't comport with them, I'm concerned.
The tenets are incredibly general and offer tons of leeway. They don't say anything about progeny, instances, the climate system, twinking, or player housing either. But they are all discussed in the FAQ accompaniment and/or the game features page.
What is it about the cosmetic system that bothers you specifically? Perhaps that is more important to address here? All gear will still have to be earned (looted/quested/purchased) and from what I understand of it, they aren't going to be spending many (if any) resources on cosmetic specific items (armors and items without stats). Nor will they have a cash shop. And you get to decide whether or not you even have to see others appearance gear. You can toggle it off so you never have to live in that alternate universe.
Gawd said:i like the idea that if i do a raid and get "Chestplate of Awesomesauce" It has a special look. i dont want someones banded mail to be able to look like my "Chestplate of Awesomesauce". even if the appearance items have graphics that are all their own, you shouldnt be able to dress in rags and still look like the king of a country.
so no for appearance items. maybe illusion items, with effects like clickie skeleton illusions, or things like clickable aura items that just make clouds or butterflies float around you, but nothing to cover up the gear.
Do you think that it would work if I have a "Chestplate of Awesomesauce" I could then sacrifice that item on a different character to change the appearance of one item?
This could make PvP interesting because then you would not be able to tell if you could kill a person just by looks.
Chestplace of Awesomesauce would in all likelihood be plate armor, and banded has historically been chain. In any reasonable implementation of appearance gear, you wouldn't be able to do that anyway.
Requiring that the item being appearance swapped is equal or lower level, as well as of the same "type" would remedy that. Cloth armor can only replace cloth armor, piercing weapons can only replace piercing weapons.
Koios said:This could make PvP interesting because then you would not be able to tell if you could kill a person just by looks.
I certainly hope we can't do that anyway, because that would mean that skill is a non-factor, which is never how it should be.
Gawd said:i like the idea that if i do a raid and get "Chestplate of Awesomesauce" It has a special look. i dont want someones banded mail to be able to look like my "Chestplate of Awesomesauce". even if the appearance items have graphics that are all their own, you shouldnt be able to dress in rags and still look like the king of a country.
so no for appearance items. maybe illusion items, with effects like clickie skeleton illusions, or things like clickable aura items that just make clouds or butterflies float around you, but nothing to cover up the gear.
I am pretty much with Gawd on this. I do like the idea of illusion items. I want my Amulet of Necropotence back... nothing better than having a skeleton pulling for you, they fd and collape in a pile of bones. If you wanted to get something like the AoN, or clickie aura items, maybe a long and difficult quest to get something like that.
I think the easiest way to do this would be to only allow those items that your character can equipment normally to be used for appearance items. It would remove Wizards running around in Full Plate and weilding two handed swords that others dislike seeing and allows those that want to keep a certain look they aquired say in their 20's (class armor) that they thought just looked awesome. So if someone aquired a really rare and down right awesome looking sword for their class and don't want to give up the look I say let them..
Of course all this can be avoided if every armor and weapon upgrade just looked more awesome than the last :p
I'm just going to be disappointed if I work my ass off for epic weapons, only to have them get replaced later and lose that amazing class-specific skin.
I'm sorry but even in modern EQ, no weapon graphic has ever approached the looks of the 1.0 and even 2.0 epic graphics. I've used the Transcended Fistwraps of Immortality graphic on my Monk's endgame raiding weapons 10 years after that weapon was relevant. When they added those quests it was a great addition, to me.
I have every confidence that Pantheon will have cool looking stuff, but nothing that drops from a raid boss can compare with the class-specific flavor of epic weapons. They've been my favorite weapon graphic in every game that has them.
EQ, EQoA, EQ2, Vanguard, etc. Vanguard is an exception though since their epics literally replaced the graphic of whatever weapon they were slotted on.
KatoKhan said:Anasyn said:Lets not take a step backwards when a developer can easily create a solution that fits every bodies needs.
The developers could create an option to view items people are wearing or their appearance slot. The user decides what gear they want to view. Kinda like using old Everquest models or the new Models it should be up to the user what they view.
+1
I agree with this. Options are the greatest assetts to MMOs as long as they dont infringe upon each other and this is a great solotion that has been used in other games as well.
Hmm interesting idea..but then it sort of breaks the immersion when someone comments on someones gear and you're both looking at two completely different things.
So I've read through this entire post, it has certianly given me a lot to think about. When possible, I side with giving players options in approaching and playing the game how they wish to, and not forcing them to play in only one manner. That said, I am not advocating for anarchy or 100% free choice, but more options is always good. I'll throw out an idea that hopefully finds a compromise and maybe even a slightly new approach that will address many concerns on both sides. I apologize if this not laid out as coherently or as efficiently as possible but I'll do my best to be clear.
First, just a definition of sorts, when I'm talking about cosmetic gear, it is gear that affects the look of the character only and has no stats. Also, it seems the majority of people who are advocating for cosmetic gear are doing so that they can add flavor to their look. So when I talk about cosmetic gear it must fit in with the lore and esthetic of Terminus. Also, cosmetic gear can not appear to alter the laws that govern this world. What I mean by that is if a class can't wear certain armor or wield certian weapons, then cosmetic gear can not make it look otherwise.
I've read posts stating why cosmetic gear is bad for PvP. As I am not a PvPer I can not address those arguments, so this proposal is for PvE servers only. PvP servers will already have a different rule set so I don't see why it can't include what should or should not be allowed in regards to this topic.
I see 3 main ways to go about customizing your look:
1) The ability to hide/show different slots
2) A paper doll tab where cosmetic gear can be dropped in slots and that appearance will supercede what is actually equipped.
3) Trinkets- special slots where cosmetic only items may be equipped.
In regards to hiding/showing different slots. It has always seemed odd to me that we are able to choose all sorts of customizations in regards to how our character looks at character creation and then almost immediatly they are covered up by gear and never seen again. I like the idea of being able to hide certain slots so that these customizations can be seen. Or just various looks are created by what gear is revealed.
For the paper doll, I really like the idea that you can turn a world drop that you particually like or that has sentimental value for you into a cosmetic item. You can drop it into the paper doll, its stats no longer function, but you get to keep the look- you've earned it, but the stats of whatever you've recently found are what apply to your character. I also like the idea of crafters being able to make cosmetic items, some ideas that come to mind, racial armors, weapons that look a little different, outer gear for different types of adventuring or socializing. If those looks suit your fancy over the gear with stats you have, put them on the paper doll.
Trinkets, I love the idea of trinkets. The possibilities here are endless and only limited to dev resouces. But finding trinkets dropped around the world, that you have to quest for, or that are crafter made is really exciting to me. It creates another horizontal way to invest in your character. Simply oustanding.
Now here is where the system gets tweaked a little more. In EQ, I really enjoyed quality of life perks or perks that opened up as you leveled, such as not having to stare at your book while medding (a real game changer) or gaining the ability to add a surname. So with each different method of cosmetic customization, all options are not available at first level. Just as an example, maybe at level one you can only hide/show your helm, only 1 slot is available on your paper doll, and no trinket options. As you level up, different options open up. Hide/Show, the Paper Doll, and trinkets would each have their own advancemt path so at different levels more and more customization options would open up to you.
The other tweak that I would make is that these levels requirements would apply to cities but outside the city the threshholds increase depending on the level of the zone and increase further with zones that require acclimation. Once fully, naturally acclimated to an environment the environmental penalties would no longer apply but zone penalites would still be in effect. This way if you see someone running around without their hat or no breastplate in a frigid environment, you know they've worked hard to get fully acclimated and they must be a certain level, which means to me a certain toughness. Or that they are going to die pretty quickly. That way it makes sense that they are able to do that.
Of course, the exact levels in which these things happen and how zones and climates would effect them would need to be twinked so that it encourages and rewards players without feeling out of reach.
With this system, people would definitely have more options on how to customize their look, but at the same time, when looking at a character you could get a feel for their level and accomplishments. Also, being able to get your character too look as you wish would really feel like an accomplishment in itself.
cromwell said:Happytrees said:In my opinion, being able to have gear appear to be other gear is one of the worst features you could have in a MMO.
second this.
I think the direction VR is taken is kind of a ' dont like it? Then dont use it.' Approach.
They understand people have different opinions on this. And there is a way to have your cake and eat it too in regards to this topic.
I really feel at this point the for and against for this topic has been beaten to the ground. People are strongly for their own respective side. We need to realize a decision has been made.
Use it if you like it
Dont use it if you dont like it.
The only thing i could see being argued for at this point is if the feature is active at launch and you have to disable it or the other way around. Which *sigh* is stupid to argue about.
sorry to be blunt about this one.
-Sent via mobile
-Todd
In a PvP game, being able to 'hide' your actual gear is bad on many levels.
In a PvE centric game like this, I like being able to customise my character's appearance separately to the gear I'm actually wearing, especially as so often the appearance of the 'best' gear is awful :)
Clearly it can go too far (ArcheAge as often is an example of how not to do it :P) and having people running around in jeans and T-shirt is bad... So as long as its kept under control (even say if you're a cloth wearer you can only customise using other cloth pieces for example), I'm very much in favour of having wardrobe slots. Disable it on the PvP server if that's going to be an issue.
One caveat - MMO helms are so often so awful - please have a 'hide helm' button - even if its on my client only :)
Scanphor said:In a PvP game, being able to 'hide' your actual gear is bad on many levels.
I've played just about every PvP MMO in existence and never once has a player's physical appearance influenced anything. Gameplay is way too chaotic to even see something as subtle as that.
Kittik said:I am not a fan of appearace gear. If what is shown on your character, should be what is worn. You want to go fight with a giant fish costume on, good for you. But you should also have to fight with the stats that giant fish costume has.
Fush costumes are something entirely different.
There's a difference between wearing one breastplate as opposed to another breastplate, and wearing novelty equipment. Novelty equipment should have its own separate thread entirely, imo.
I really like what WoW did with their transmog system. I read through a few pages but definatley not all 15 and I wanted to throw in my personal opinion. "Transmogrifiying" your gear, as its called in WoW was a great feature because it allowed you to "keep graphics" of gear you really liked and "reskin" crappy ones you didnt like. I'm sure a lot of us remember Kunark era Everquest obtaining those epics... The power was great but lets all be honest with ourselves we all wanted those epics for the EPIC GRAPHIC that came with them. Come Velious, Luclin and PoP it was hard for some of us to upgrade our epics because who we kidding we didnt want to lose that sweet ass graphic. With "xmogs" we would be able to upgrade those sick ass weapons and keep the graphic.
I brought up WoW's system because the biggest complaint from what I read was "posers". Noone wants to see people faking badass gear etc. In WoW's system your "Appearances" for a piece of gear wasn't unlocked untill you personally looted and or equipped an item. So it wasnt as if level 10 newbs were running around with Tier 10 raid graphics. I also saw someone mention a PVP concern. They didnt want to see people wearing rags secretly wrecking them because they were actually super geared but appeared to be a scrub. In all honesty, I kind of like the idea of that being available. It just adds to the riskyness of PVP. But we already know this game isn't going to be centered or really "hard covered" on pvp. SO do we really care if that were to happen? If we do for some reason WoW has it currently setup where the whole system revolves around talking to an NPC similar to a merchant to actually alter your appearance. For those "pure pvp" servers that i'm sure will come out you could simply remove those "vendors" from the server and thus take away the whole system. For non PVP servers, I'm assuming they're gonna set it up old eq style where you will have to /duel your victim before you fight and whats to stop you from /inspecting their gear before you /duel them? You should be doing that anyways =p
TLDR: No serious con's as long as players can't Xmog into something you havent "obtained". Biggest pro is being able to keep that sexxy "epic graphic" long after "epics" become outdated.
Under the currently planned system, you have a toggle. If you don't want to see people's appearance gear, you don't have to.
So, there is no harm to PvP. If you dont want to see someone's fish outfit, you don't have to.
It's their choice to wear what they want. It's your choice to see it or not.
Great system.
Oozu said:I really like what WoW did with their transmog system. I read through a few pages but definatley not all 15 and I wanted to throw in my personal opinion. "Transmogrifiying" your gear, as its called in WoW was a great feature because it allowed you to "keep graphics" of gear you really liked and "reskin" crappy ones you didnt like. I'm sure a lot of us remember Kunark era Everquest obtaining those epics... The power was great but lets all be honest with ourselves we all wanted those epics for the EPIC GRAPHIC that came with them. Come Velious, Luclin and PoP it was hard for some of us to upgrade our epics because who we kidding we didnt want to lose that sweet ass graphic. With "xmogs" we would be able to upgrade those sick ass weapons and keep the graphic.
I brought up WoW's system because the biggest complaint from what I read was "posers". Noone wants to see people faking badass gear etc. In WoW's system your "Appearances" for a piece of gear wasn't unlocked untill you personally looted and or equipped an item. So it wasnt as if level 10 newbs were running around with Tier 10 raid graphics. I also saw someone mention a PVP concern. They didnt want to see people wearing rags secretly wrecking them because they were actually super geared but appeared to be a scrub. In all honesty, I kind of like the idea of that being available. It just adds to the riskyness of PVP. But we already know this game isn't going to be centered or really "hard covered" on pvp. SO do we really care if that were to happen? If we do for some reason WoW has it currently setup where the whole system revolves around talking to an NPC similar to a merchant to actually alter your appearance. For those "pure pvp" servers that i'm sure will come out you could simply remove those "vendors" from the server and thus take away the whole system. For non PVP servers, I'm assuming they're gonna set it up old eq style where you will have to /duel your victim before you fight and whats to stop you from /inspecting their gear before you /duel them? You should be doing that anyways =p
TLDR: No serious con's as long as players can't Xmog into something you havent "obtained". Biggest pro is being able to keep that sexxy "epic graphic" long after "epics" become outdated.
It took me years to finally switch out my Epic weapons in Everquest because of this very reason. With the amount of time I spent on not one but two epics it was very hard to put that epic in the bag and not at least transpose the graphic onto a much more powerful weapon. I think for everquest the tech just wasn't there back then like it is now, or it just never occured to anybody to develope that feature so early on. Afterall MMORPG's were new back then so people weren't concrended with their epeen until much later.
