@Pyde
Many of us have no issue with downtime in the game, we have issues with the concept of sitting down while life or death combat is happening. And let's be honest, these social bonds typically aren't happening in combat, they're happening during the downtime outside of combat.
you meditate while sitting down, not standing up >.>, and if life or death combat is going on and youre out of mana, whats the difference in sitting or standing, you are still doing nothing, it makes sense to sit while meditating imo, and anyone who actually meditates opinion. Oh and google meditation if you need examples, theres about 4 billion of them.
Riqq said:you meditate while sitting down, not standing up >.>, and if life or death combat is going on and youre out of mana, whats the difference in sitting or standing, you are still doing nothing, it makes sense to sit while meditating imo, and anyone who actually meditates opinion. Oh and google meditation if you need examples, theres about 4 billion of them.
This isn't true, meditation isn't confined to the act of sitting down. Nowhere in the definition of meditation is "sitting down." Sitting down is often done because it is more comfortable for the meditator for long sessions. And yes, I practice meditation, specifically Vipassana.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meditate
Pyde said:A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.
There's nothing in there that says that downtime should be happening in the middle of combat, though. Combat should be engaging. Sitting/standing (whichever) and doing nothing while waiting for resources to regen is NOT engaging. Actively being able to control your resource regen through careful and strategic usage of spells, however, is definitely engaging.
Naunet said:Pyde said:A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.There's nothing in there that says that downtime should be happening in the middle of combat, though. Combat should be engaging. Sitting/standing (whichever) and doing nothing while waiting for resources to regen is NOT engaging. Actively being able to control your resource regen through careful and strategic usage of spells, however, is definitely engaging.
It IS engaging to those of us who are looking for less instant-gratification in an mmo again though. More challenge and depth is key imo.. and I think that is what has brought many of us back here from Old EQ and Vanguard (the other games Brad worked on in addition to this one). Anyway, I totally agree with Pyde.
Syrif said:It IS engaging to those of us who are looking for less instant-gratification in an mmo again though. More challenge and depth is key imo.. and I think that is what has brought many of us back here from Old EQ and Vanguard (the other games Brad worked on in addition to this one). Anyway, I totally agree with Pyde.
There is no challenge or depth in just sitting down during combat without consequence over and over again to regenerate mana. Even in Vanguard there were skills that casters utilized to help boost their mana, which is a much more interactive way for them to regen and manage their mana during combat.
Sicario said:There is no challenge or depth in just sitting down during combat without consequence over and over again to regenerate mana. Even in Vanguard there were skills that casters utilized to help boost their mana, which is a much more interactive way for them to regen and manage their mana during combat.
@Sicario Yes, and there were mechanisms such as Harvest in Classic EQ. I’m not opposed to such things. :) There is some room to work with regen, but I don’t want it to be reduced to where it is meaningless like has happened in other games.
Syrif said:Naunet said:Pyde said:A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.There's nothing in there that says that downtime should be happening in the middle of combat, though. Combat should be engaging. Sitting/standing (whichever) and doing nothing while waiting for resources to regen is NOT engaging. Actively being able to control your resource regen through careful and strategic usage of spells, however, is definitely engaging.
It IS engaging to those of us who are looking for less instant-gratification in an mmo again though. More challenge and depth is key imo.. and I think that is what has brought many of us back here from Old EQ and Vanguard (the other games Brad worked on in addition to this one). Anyway, I totally agree with Pyde.
Vanguard was the perfect example on how to manage in combat resources (sadly out of combat recovery was not really a thing) and should be more the inspiration than EQ1. I don't play casters so I don't really care one way or another, but if sittting down in combat is the primary gameplay then the Devs failed at their intention to make combat to complex for multi boxing
Syrif said:@Sicario Yes, and there were mechanisms such as Harvest in Classic EQ. I’m not opposed to such things. :) There is some room to work with regen, but I don’t want it to be reduced to where it is meaningless like has happened in other games.
No one is asking for endless mana or for mana regen/management in combat to be meaningless, we're asking for it to be actually engaging and to not be so simple that it ends up with the classes themselves becoming meaningless to play. Systems like Vanguard went further in creating an interactive experience that didn't reduce healers to being something that were just multi-boxed, which is what happened in EQ. And guess what, the healers were still fun to play in Vanguard.
Sicario said:No one is asking for endless mana or for mana regen/management in combat to be meaningless, we're asking for it to be actually engaging and to not be so simple that it ends up with the classes themselves becoming meaningless to play. Systems like Vanguard went further in creating an interactive experience that didn't reduce healers to being something that were just multi-boxed, which is what happened in EQ. And guess what, the healers were still fun to play in Vanguard.
Fair enough. I don’t think boxing will go away in Pantheon though, unless it’s banned (unlikely). Healers were fun in Old EQ imo (and Vanguard in a way). As I mentioned both Old EQ and Vanguard had such mechanisms for mana regen; I’m not opposed to them. I agree with you though, regen should be meaningful and I think it can still be done in a very challenging way with some depth. That’s for VR to work on. :)
Sicario said:Syrif said:@Sicario Yes, and there were mechanisms such as Harvest in Classic EQ. I’m not opposed to such things. :) There is some room to work with regen, but I don’t want it to be reduced to where it is meaningless like has happened in other games.
No one is asking for endless mana or for mana regen/management in combat to be meaningless, we're asking for it to be actually engaging and to not be so simple that it ends up with the classes themselves becoming meaningless to play. Systems like Vanguard went further in creating an interactive experience that didn't reduce healers to being something that were just multi-boxed, which is what happened in EQ. And guess what, the healers were still fun to play in Vanguard.
Funny you say that because I really did not like playing a Cleric in VG. The required combat was very distracting and was not fun. I want to heal, not melee. I played a high-level cleric in EQ and it was quite enjoyable and relaxing.
Fun can come in more forms that running up and bashing on mobs. I like managing my mana and buffs. In EQ, it was strategy and a game all in itself. Timing sitting and standing was important. When I wanted to bash on mobs I would switch to my Monk.
@Bigdogchris Well said. Yeah, I thought the same.
bigdogchris said:Funny you say that because I really did not like playing a Cleric in VG. The required combat was very distracting and was not fun. I want to heal, not melee. I played a high-level cleric in EQ and it was quite enjoyable and relaxing.
Fun can come in more forms that running up and bashing on mobs. I like managing my mana and buffs. In EQ, it was strategy and a game all in itself. Timing sitting and standing was important. When I wanted to bash on mobs I would switch to my Monk.
It's fine that you enjoyed the classic iteration of healing found in EQ, it doesn't mean it's without heavy flaws. Cleric has been one of the most popular classes to multi-box in EQ, even guilds that raided typically had full groups of multi-boxed clerics because they were so simple. Even those who played clerics weren't managing much, mostly casting healing spells and then going afk playing /gems or reading books until they came back to toss a few more heals and sit back down. Vanguard's improvements to healing mechanics were widely well-received by the EQ community moving into it, and in fact Vanguard's healing classes consistently come up as examples of healing classes done right, i.e. a class that retains deep role identity while providing a more interactive combat experience that's not extreme in any way.
As a long-time healer in MMOs I have to say that interactive regen mechanics where I have some control are a lot more fun than the extremes of the modern WoW endless mana or cast 3 spells and /sit expounded above. Early WoW with the 5 second regen rule or the WoW monk's original mana tea (use 4 resources on abilities gives one tea, use one tea to get y mana, use mana to generate the resources) were pretty interesting and fun. Post-BC automated uniform mana regen killed healing (IMO) as any sort of fun exercise. Any design where I spend more of my time in combat doing nothing than actively participating would be an utter failure IMO.
Syrif said:Naunet said:Pyde said:A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.There's nothing in there that says that downtime should be happening in the middle of combat, though. Combat should be engaging. Sitting/standing (whichever) and doing nothing while waiting for resources to regen is NOT engaging. Actively being able to control your resource regen through careful and strategic usage of spells, however, is definitely engaging.
It IS engaging to those of us who are looking for less instant-gratification in an mmo again though. More challenge and depth is key imo.. and I think that is what has brought many of us back here from Old EQ and Vanguard (the other games Brad worked on in addition to this one). Anyway, I totally agree with Pyde.
If I had any desire or ability I would SOOOO Downvote this comment. Again, as in other posts, you throw out "Trigger" words. You are very good at using them to defame a poster to denigrate a idea, a concept, or a conversation that even remotely steps in a direction not EXACTLY in line with how EQ1 vanilla was. You made serious assumptions here that someone wanted instant-gratification. Your seriously not getting the concept behind what is being said only what appears to be said on the surface.
I request that you try harder to see the depth of the request/suggestions/ideas instead of the toeing the "its not EQ" line with such ardent fanaticism and see the reasoning behind the subject at hand instead.
Now for the Vulcan. It is just plain highly illogical to sit down for any reason in near proximity to a mob frothing at the mouth to eat you. Its silly and its stupid and I am surprised I don't hear the clammor of the immersion-breaking crowd here. I do not think you should be able to med in combat at all for that matter. Get out of combat and med up. How do you get out of combat? Well, that's where ability and game design come into play.
MyNegation said:Sicario said:TLDR:
Mana recovery rates = fine
Sit-to-med outside of combat = fine
Sit-to-med during combat = bad game designI tend to disagree, unless you will never introduce in-combat regen at all, with no exceptions, so healers will have no other choice rather than auto attack. but then you balance you fights solemnly on the healers mana pool. as long as you have mana, you can fight, then long downtime.
when you allow for sit-to-med mechanic you balance the fight more around tank mitigation, so if the tank mitigation is good enough the meditation time re-fills the mana that was used to heal the tank.
and the downtime after the fight is shorter.from WOW experience, introduction of Mp5 (Mana Per 5 seconds) gear not only broke spirit as stat and made it obsolete, but also changed the combat meta and made Mp5 stacking the meta for all healers.
EQ and WoW aren't the only games out there. When you rested to heal in FFXI it had a 20-second timer before you started regenerating health and MP in 10-second ticks. "Sit-to-med" was technically possible, but very impractical. But MP expenditure wasn't balanced for single encounters, it was balanced to be used up across multiple pulls, unless **** hit the fan and you had to bust out the big heals/AOE spells. Because of the chain XP mechanic in that game, you benefit by killing as many things in a row as fast as you can, but too long pulling without resting and your healer is out of MP. Do you go for the extra kill while the healer rests and see if you can live, or pause to let the party rest and reset the chain? Is your black mage also low on MP or good to go? Do you have a red mage casting Refresh so that casters are getting MP regen to keep them going for longer? That's meaningful group-level decision-making.
If this game is being balanced so that as a caster, rather than a cadence of "pull-pull-pull-rest" you're spending the majority of every encounter with your thumbs up your ass unless you've got an enchanter to speed up your mana regen, I don't think that's a good direction to go, nor is it the right way for such a feature to encourage social interaction during downtime because while you're sitting to meditate the rest of your party is still killing. I watched the full stream and listened to them discuss their reason for meditating as a mechanic, and it seems to me that FFXI nailed a design that perfectly fits their intent, and it would be healthier for the game if players opposed to the change discuss the actual merits of the design and the alternatives being raised rather than assuming that because some people want a design different from how EQ worked that automatically means they want "instant gratification" rather than just a different means of achieving the same goal. Both here and on Reddit I see a lot of talking around the actual arguments being made in favor of just saying "change bad" and it's just disheartening.
Syrif said:It IS engaging to those of us who are looking for less instant-gratification in an mmo again though. More challenge and depth is key imo.. and I think that is what has brought many of us back here from Old EQ and Vanguard (the other games Brad worked on in addition to this one). Anyway, I totally agree with Pyde.
... Nothing about strategizing and making use of the appropriate spells to manage your class resources is "instant-gratification". There is zero challenge in sitting/standing around and waiting for your mana to regen while the fight goes on.
Naunet said:... Nothing about strategizing and making use of the appropriate spells to manage your class resources is "instant-gratification". There is zero challenge in sitting/standing around and waiting for your mana to regen while the fight goes on.
I can see some of where you are coming from. Curious - what do you think is the alternative to getting mana in combat if not through medding? One thing that was used were mod rods (with a usage/time limit) that gave a small amount of mana back. Joppa mentioned consuming ‘berries‘ for a bit of mana in the recent community stream. I thought that’s cool. As I mentioned, I’m not against other means of mana recovery. I thought harvesting mana worked well for Wizards. It seems like eventually medding would need to fill the gaps with these mechanisms. I think the game’s ‘challenge’ would decline if a group is able to access steady, sudden mana just because they are in combat, while just continuing to fight mobs without needing to med mana back. Just curious what ideas you have on it.
Dashed said:I do not think you should be able to med in combat at all for that matter.
I suppose that’s where I disagree. I don‘t think full mana recovery should be quick just because one is in combat. I think other mechanisms for sudden mana in smaller amounts can work well.. like Joppa mentioned consuming berries for a small amount of mana. Perhaps something akin to harvesting and mod rods? What are some ideas that you have?
Syrif said:I can see some of where you are coming from. Curious - what do you think is the alternative to getting mana in combat if not through medding? One thing that was used were mod rods (with a usage/time limit) that gave a small amount of mana back. Joppa mentioned consuming ‘berries‘ for a bit of mana in the recent community stream. I thought that’s cool. As I mentioned, I’m not against other means of mana recovery. I thought harvesting mana worked well for Wizards. It seems like eventually medding would need to fill the gaps with these mechanisms. Just curious what ideas you have on it.
Going back to FFXI as an example, in large-scale content where specific group composition matters you'd be expected to have at least one Red Mage along for Refresh, which could be cast on party members for passive MP regen, which as I understand it is more or less the role of enchanters. But in a run-of-the-mill XP party, if you didn't have a Red Mage with you, you just wouldn't regen mana in combat at all, aside from maybe the odd consumable. Classes very heavily dependent on MP would gain a certain amount of "auto-refresh" (MP per tick) as they leveled, but mainly enough to let them keep going for longer without resting rather than reduce the actual need for them to rest.
It works because, again, in FFXI MP costs are balanced to last across multiple pulls, so rather than "you never run out of mana" or "you run out of mana every encounter," it becomes basically "you can pull and kill X enemies before your casters need to stop for MP," but the game rewards you with bonus XP for consecutive kills within a certain time frame, so there's incentive to push your party as far towards that limit as you can. As someone who never played Everquest, I've seen it argued both that "medding after multiple pulls IS the intent and the streamers are just playing poorly because of their limited time with the game" and "no, medding in combat every encounter is both intended and desirable," so it seems like even from the EQ veterans there are conflicted perspectives on the design intent here. If the former is the case, I'm fine with that. If the latter, that's what I personally dislike.
The TL;DR to your question is: If running content specifically intended to be hard, bring an enchanter. If not, you shouldn't especially need to med more often than every few pulls. In either case, you shouldn't need to med while in combat.
Eamil said:Syrif said:I can see some of where you are coming from. Curious - what do you think is the alternative to getting mana in combat if not through medding? One thing that was used were mod rods (with a usage/time limit) that gave a small amount of mana back. Joppa mentioned consuming ‘berries‘ for a bit of mana in the recent community stream. I thought that’s cool. As I mentioned, I’m not against other means of mana recovery. I thought harvesting mana worked well for Wizards. It seems like eventually medding would need to fill the gaps with these mechanisms. I think the game’s ‘challenge’ would decline if a group is able to access steady, sudden mana just because they are in combat, while just continuing to fight mobs without needing to med mana back. Just curious what ideas you have on it.
Going back to FFXI as an example, in large-scale content where specific group composition matters you'd be expected to have at least one Red Mage along for Refresh, which could be cast on party members for passive MP regen, which as I understand it is more or less the role of enchanters. But in a run-of-the-mill XP party, if you didn't have a Red Mage with you, you just wouldn't regen mana in combat at all, aside from maybe the odd consumable.
Interesting. Yeah, that reminds me of the enchanter’s clarity line. Odd consumables are cool, I imagine Pantheon will have something like that. Anyway, I can see how that fit FF too.