Just brainstorming and spitballing,
1. There is no mana regen outside meditation.
2. Have a meditation stance (something like from an anime building chakra/ki whatever).
3. During the stance you an immoble, and you build up the potential to regen mana at x%. You can only regen mana that you do not have and only up to your full mana bar, so medding at a full Mana bar would do nothing.
4. Once you come out of the stance you start to regen at whatever your regen % is untill you are fill the mana bar that you meded up.
In game example. You are a caster in a group in a a fight. You have used 75% of your mana casting spells and are now at 25%mana. You go into the meditation stance. A lite blue bar begins to fill up above your actual mana level. It takes you a full minute to reach 50% of your mana with the lite blue bar. You stop meditating, your mana is still at 25% but your mana starts to regen at 2%. If you do nothing else your mana will regen to 50% and then stop. Regen buffs/food/whatever could effect the regen %.
jimmay said:I agree sitting in combat is crazy and should be left in the past. I think someone mentioned this already, but I actually like the idea of a mana recovery ability that you use once you're lom. This could have the character taking a stance where his arms are out, palms up and he's gathering mana from his surroundings. You would see blue particle fx channeling into his being and slowly refilling his mana. While he is in this state, he could be generating aggro and also take more damage if attacked. He can break the state at any point, so obviously he wants to channel as much mana as he can before drawing aggro and getting hit, but there is a risk trying to get to full mana. I also think this ability should have a cooldown so that it cannot be spammed.
This is an interesting idea and has some merit IMO. As long as the agro generated wasnt a ridiculous amount. Something akin to where you would have to wait to sit a few seconds after casting on a mob or healing the tank lest you draw agro. Going into this stance shouldn't, for example, rip agro off the tank any more than sitting to med would have.
I also like the idea of clerics using melee to regen - another take on that would be similar to the way EQ2 designed AA lines. Pretty much every healer class could spec into a line that would proc heals and cures etc while in melee. The Coercer had a line like this as well and was my favorite spec of any enchanter type class I have ever played. In the coercer's case it was less about regen (we had our myth clicky for that) and more about giving us tools to survive in melee such as a 10 second personal AOE blocker and other goodies. Much more fun to be in the thick of it whacking away at the mob than sitting on my butt. This meant we couldn't sit out of AOE range etc either, so we had to joust and be situationally aware if the tank lost agro and the mob turned you could get a face full of frontal AE....risk vs reward. If you can't tell, I really enjoyed the combat in EQ2 lol, much more dynamic and satisfying for every class not just the melee.
Dullahan said:We talked about this in another thread not long ago, but I think a sort of mana mini game with mana regen abilities that have high risk versus reward mechanics could make combat considerably more interesting. For instance, a cleric has a mana channeling skill. The ability starts off slow, but increases mana faster the longer you use it. The challenge will come with extended use. The longer you use the ability, the more threat you draw, the more susceptible to damage you become and the longer it takes to deactivate the ability. Using it will require players to know their threat levels and sort of ride on the edge of a razor. If they try to push the ability too far, they draw aggro which causes a mob to attack them. If they're unable to stop the ability in time, any attack lands for critical damage as well as a loss of mana gained.
This sounds awful to me =( We generate agro just by doing our jobs in the first place....I dont want to generate more just while trying to recover enough to continue doing my job. I am totally against any type of mana regen mini game, anything that prevents me from cancelling out when I want to or worse yet holds me immobile and cannot be cancelled at will. Personally I like to be engaged with the fight going on, not fighting with my mana bar....not to mention the headaches this would cause the tank who already has to deal with holding agro through us doing our actual job.
Not trying to come across poorly, I respect your opinions and your right to them.
The meditation time is what is used for the community building time in a group...its downtime that you use to BS with other group members, a chance to catch your breath. I dont care if you change the animation (I liked the planted staff with bowed head as an example) but please dont change the system.
Sevens said:The meditation time is what is used for the community building time in a group...its downtime that you use to BS with other group members, a chance to catch your breath. I dont care if you change the animation (I liked the planted staff with bowed head as an example) but please dont change the system.
Exactly.
I like the idea to make mana regen more involved. I think all classes should have their unique way to regen mana most effectively while in combat; attribute it to that particular class's most comfortable way to deal with the pressures of being in combat. Some quick ideas of how each class deals with pressure, attributing to their best way to regen mana:
Wizard - Sit. That's what wizards do best, and let's face it, wizards know what they're signing up for.
Cleric - Melee
Druid - Ability to gather mana from surrounding nature, on cooldown. Like Innervate in (WoW)
Bard - Sing songs
Crusader - Stunning abilities which don't cost mana
Summoner - hmmm
Enchanter - Clarity type buff for permanent semi-meditation. Also self buff for a max meditate throughout its duration
Ranger - Weapon procs? Roots/snares/traps?
Monk - Maybe some kind of ability combos like Heroic Opportunities in EQ2, but only the Monk executes these and for only his mana regen benefit
Shaman - Cannibalize is a popular favorite
Warriors and rogues worry not with this tomfoolery
Conversely, out of combat, all classes can be lumped together depending on sitting, standing, or running. I believe you have to meditate, specifically sit, to regen mana at max rate. If you're standing still, you regain mana somewhat quicker and if you're running for any reason, especially running for your life from a mob chasing you, you certainly aren't freeing your mind to regain mana and should regen mana very very slowly.
MINX said:Dullahan said:We talked about this in another thread not long ago, but I think a sort of mana mini game with mana regen abilities that have high risk versus reward mechanics could make combat considerably more interesting. For instance, a cleric has a mana channeling skill. The ability starts off slow, but increases mana faster the longer you use it. The challenge will come with extended use. The longer you use the ability, the more threat you draw, the more susceptible to damage you become and the longer it takes to deactivate the ability. Using it will require players to know their threat levels and sort of ride on the edge of a razor. If they try to push the ability too far, they draw aggro which causes a mob to attack them. If they're unable to stop the ability in time, any attack lands for critical damage as well as a loss of mana gained.
This sounds awful to me =( We generate agro just by doing our jobs in the first place....I dont want to generate more just while trying to recover enough to continue doing my job. I am totally against any type of mana regen mini game, anything that prevents me from cancelling out when I want to or worse yet holds me immobile and cannot be cancelled at will. Personally I like to be engaged with the fight going on, not fighting with my mana bar....not to mention the headaches this would cause the tank who already has to deal with holding agro through us doing our actual job.
Not trying to come across poorly, I respect your opinions and your right to them.
There would be ways to balance a system like this, including the aggro generation. I think the first thing that could be done is find a way to provide immediate player feedback, so it’s not just a guessing game. A stacking debuff would work.
It could be that as the debuff builds multiple stacks, the higher the threat and incoming damage multiplier build. Then, once you stop channeling, the debuffs start to diminish and lose stacks over time. At some point, if you’re having to channel your mana back more and more frequently, the more stacks will build up (because they won’t have time to all tick down), and eventually it will hit a critical point in which things will go poorly for the caster. That, or the caster knows he can no longer push it, and whatever the repercussions of him not having mana will have to play out. I could see that meaning non-vital players (aka DPS) will start to die in order to keep the tank alive.
Also, even with a system like this in place, I think there should still be a baseline kneel and med mechanic, much like we’re use to in older MMO’s. I just think adding a system that becomes interactive for the caster opens the door for additional ways to gain mana at a risk, and gives the caster gameplay other than just sitting, standing, and healing. I’m sure the devs will work on this behind the scenes, but it’s worth brainstorming on the boards as well.
Edit - I wanted to add that if they were to look into something like this, I would hope that it would be something that is only usable in combat. I agree that the downtime for normal medding is important, and should not go away. Maybe it would be something that is only available under 10% mana, and while in combat. A last minute prayer being answered!
MINX said:Dullahan said:We talked about this in another thread not long ago, but I think a sort of mana mini game with mana regen abilities that have high risk versus reward mechanics could make combat considerably more interesting. For instance, a cleric has a mana channeling skill. The ability starts off slow, but increases mana faster the longer you use it. The challenge will come with extended use. The longer you use the ability, the more threat you draw, the more susceptible to damage you become and the longer it takes to deactivate the ability. Using it will require players to know their threat levels and sort of ride on the edge of a razor. If they try to push the ability too far, they draw aggro which causes a mob to attack them. If they're unable to stop the ability in time, any attack lands for critical damage as well as a loss of mana gained.
This sounds awful to me =( We generate agro just by doing our jobs in the first place....I dont want to generate more just while trying to recover enough to continue doing my job. I am totally against any type of mana regen mini game, anything that prevents me from cancelling out when I want to or worse yet holds me immobile and cannot be cancelled at will. Personally I like to be engaged with the fight going on, not fighting with my mana bar....not to mention the headaches this would cause the tank who already has to deal with holding agro through us doing our actual job.
Not trying to come across poorly, I respect your opinions and your right to them.
You seem to be missing the point. At the point you would use such a skill, you are no longer able to do your job. You are no longer gaining aggro. It's a clutch ability, probably with a decent cooldown. You would use it at a time you would otherwise be furiously ... sitting ... trying to get the mana back to "do your job". Such an ability is meant to make that process of gaining mana back more fun rather than just sitting and watching, which is honestly a pretty unrealistic thing to do in the middle of combat to begin with. Furthermore, by no longer needing to sit at every idle moment to regen your most valuable resource and utilize your most effective abilities (healing), it would allow the cleric to take a more active role in combat.
If everyone can regenerate mana on their own through a special mechanic, that eliminates half the purpose of the Enchanter. The same reason non-healers should not heal in combat.
The idea to give each class a purpose and a role. This not about all classes doing everything.
Let healers heal and chanters mez/regen. Otherwise, we will all end up playing DPS characters like other games.
maslo said:I like the idea to make mana regen more involved. I think all classes should have their unique way to regen mana most effectively while in combat; attribute it to that particular class's most comfortable way to deal with the pressures of being in combat. Some quick ideas of how each class deals with pressure, attributing to their best way to regen mana:
Wizard - Sit. That's what wizards do best, and let's face it, wizards know what they're signing up for.
Cleric - Melee
Druid - Ability to gather mana from surrounding nature, on cooldown. Like Innervate in (WoW)
Bard - Sing songs
Crusader - Stunning abilities which don't cost mana
Summoner - hmmm
Enchanter - Clarity type buff for permanent semi-meditation. Also self buff for a max meditate throughout its duration
Ranger - Weapon procs? Roots/snares/traps?
Monk - Maybe some kind of ability combos like Heroic Opportunities in EQ2, but only the Monk executes these and for only his mana regen benefit
Shaman - Cannibalize is a popular favorite
Warriors and rogues worry not with this tomfoolery
Conversely, out of combat, all classes can be lumped together depending on sitting, standing, or running. I believe you have to meditate, specifically sit, to regen mana at max rate. If you're standing still, you regain mana somewhat quicker and if you're running for any reason, especially running for your life from a mob chasing you, you certainly aren't freeing your mind to regain mana and should regen mana very very slowly.
Why would the cleric use Melee? its a priest class, a healer not a Melee (at least I hope they revert back to that) I plan on maining a cleric UNLESS some how I am expected to be an up in the fight melee. Sorry, nope. I play a cleric to HEAL not to melee. I dont want to dps, or melee or nuke. I am a healer, and a ghetto cc with stun root parking. I may be in the minority but I love the whack a mole styly of healing, I love the rush of the groups life depending on me paying attention to what is happening to the group and not worring about what is happening with the mob.
Edit: I also think Warriors and rogues should have to med for endurance regen. I mean honestly that just makes sense, they need a min or two every once in a while to catch their breath
Beefcake said:If everyone can regenerate mana on their own through a special mechanic, that eliminates half the purpose of the Enchanter. The same reason non-healers should not heal in combat.
The idea to give each class a purpose and a role. This not about all classes doing everything.
Let healers heal and chanters mez/regen. Otherwise, we will all end up playing DPS characters like other games.
The benefit of a spell like clarity would not be diminished by an ability such as those being suggested. Did you ever hear a wizard turn down clarity because they had the Harvest spell which restored their mana?
Ideally an ability like that would just prevent them from needing to constantly sit. It would be on a cooldown, probably need to be used in combat, and have serious and potentially dangerous drawbacks. Clarity on the other hand would be beneficial at all times and has no drawbacks.
Sevens said:Why would the cleric use Melee? its a priest class, a healer not a Melee (at least I hope they revert back to that) I plan on maining a cleric UNLESS some how I am expected to be an up in the fight melee. Sorry, nope. I play a cleric to HEAL not to melee. I dont want to dps, or melee or nuke. I am a healer, and a ghetto cc with stun root parking. I may be in the minority but I love the whack a mole styly of healing, I love the rush of the groups life depending on me paying attention to what is happening to the group and not worring about what is happening with the mob.
Understood, I'm open to suggestions and am not arguing with you at all. Melee was just the first thing that came to mind (cleric main here too). Can you think of another way the cleric can improve regen while in the heat of battle?
maslo said:Sevens said:Why would the cleric use Melee? its a priest class, a healer not a Melee (at least I hope they revert back to that) I plan on maining a cleric UNLESS some how I am expected to be an up in the fight melee. Sorry, nope. I play a cleric to HEAL not to melee. I dont want to dps, or melee or nuke. I am a healer, and a ghetto cc with stun root parking. I may be in the minority but I love the whack a mole styly of healing, I love the rush of the groups life depending on me paying attention to what is happening to the group and not worring about what is happening with the mob.
Understood, I'm open to suggestions and am not arguing with you at all. Melee was just the first thing that came to mind (cleric main here too). Can you think of another way the cleric can improve regen while in the heat of battle?
Sorry, didnt mean to come across as agressive...its a shortcoming of mine even thought its mostly never meant (except when me and Dullahan are arguing over PvP :P)
Like I said I have no problems with the EQ style of sitting to med. Seems a lot of people find that off putting so some one suggested (and I liked the idea) of have the casters and healers instead of sitting having their staff (hammer, sickle what ever) planted in the ground as they bow their head in silent supplication to the gods (or reciting a mantra, mentally commiting arcane formula to memory)
Beefcake said:If everyone can regenerate mana on their own through a special mechanic, that eliminates half the purpose of the Enchanter. The same reason non-healers should not heal in combat.
The idea to give each class a purpose and a role. This not about all classes doing everything.
Let healers heal and chanters mez/regen. Otherwise, we will all end up playing DPS characters like other games.
I agree with this, dont want every class to have spells/abilites to up mana regen...that should be in the realm of a few classes (chanters, bards, necro pumps, mage items and canni). I really really dont want the every class can do everything syndrome that has killed so many other MMOs
Dullahan said:MINX said:Dullahan said:We talked about this in another thread not long ago, but I think a sort of mana mini game with mana regen abilities that have high risk versus reward mechanics could make combat considerably more interesting. For instance, a cleric has a mana channeling skill. The ability starts off slow, but increases mana faster the longer you use it. The challenge will come with extended use. The longer you use the ability, the more threat you draw, the more susceptible to damage you become and the longer it takes to deactivate the ability. Using it will require players to know their threat levels and sort of ride on the edge of a razor. If they try to push the ability too far, they draw aggro which causes a mob to attack them. If they're unable to stop the ability in time, any attack lands for critical damage as well as a loss of mana gained.
This sounds awful to me =( We generate agro just by doing our jobs in the first place....I dont want to generate more just while trying to recover enough to continue doing my job. I am totally against any type of mana regen mini game, anything that prevents me from cancelling out when I want to or worse yet holds me immobile and cannot be cancelled at will. Personally I like to be engaged with the fight going on, not fighting with my mana bar....not to mention the headaches this would cause the tank who already has to deal with holding agro through us doing our actual job.
Not trying to come across poorly, I respect your opinions and your right to them.
You seem to be missing the point. At the point you would use such a skill, you are no longer able to do your job. You are no longer gaining aggro. It's a clutch ability, probably with a decent cooldown. You would use it at a time you would otherwise be furiously ... sitting ... trying to get the mana back to "do your job". Such an ability is meant to make that process of gaining mana back more fun rather than just sitting and watching, which is honestly a pretty unrealistic thing to do in the middle of combat to begin with. Furthermore, by no longer needing to sit at every idle moment to regen your most valuable resource and utilize your most effective abilities (healing), it would allow the cleric to take a more active role in combat.
Well I am all for more active roles for caster classes, no arguement there. But yeah I'm still not seeing the picture. If it's only to be used in a clutch situation, and it generates agro....more and more agro at that while also making you more squishy and vulnerable....do you think that most people would use it rarely and default to the safer....wait a few seconds after casting, then sit and med normally tactic? Or are you envisioning this in an atmosphere were med has been removed from the game?
Sevens said:Beefcake said:If everyone can regenerate mana on their own through a special mechanic, that eliminates half the purpose of the Enchanter. The same reason non-healers should not heal in combat.
The idea to give each class a purpose and a role. This not about all classes doing everything.
Let healers heal and chanters mez/regen. Otherwise, we will all end up playing DPS characters like other games.
I agree with this, dont want every class to have spells/abilites to up mana regen...that should be in the realm of a few classes (chanters, bards, necro pumps, mage items and canni). I really really dont want the every class can do everything syndrome that has killed so many other MMOs
After going round and round with it in this thread, I have to agree with you guys. Any significant change to the medding system will result in major changes to the tenets and to gameplay in general...leading to balance issues, homoginization of class roles...and other bad stuff!
That being said, I'd like to place a vote for the planted staff with head down animation with maybe a nice particle effect showing energy being drawn in or some such...same +agro and other detriments remain the same. For non staff bearers, well, open to ideas lol. Would be cool if different races or classes had different stances for this....spice things up a bit!
Sevens said:I agree with this, dont want every class to have spells/abilites to up mana regen...that should be in the realm of a few classes (chanters, bards, necro pumps, mage items and canni). I really really dont want the every class can do everything syndrome that has killed so many other MMOs
This unfortunately sounds like copy & pasting EQ's mana recovery tools perfectly.
I don't know why Necros ever had the ability to pump mana. It's so out of place for the class in general. As for Mages, same thing. I always thought mod rods were out of place. Canni I can be on board with, though. Enchanters and Bards too, because Enchanters are Bards are just straight up utility classes.
I hate that Mages and Necros were often forced into not performing their main function because of one gimmicky, out of place ability in their toolkit that outweighs their main fuction (DPS).
MINX said:After going round and round with it in this thread, I have to agree with you guys. Any significant change to the medding system will result in major changes to the tenets and to gameplay in general...leading to balance issues, homoginization of class roles...and other bad stuff!
That being said, I'd like to place a vote for the planted staff with head down animation with maybe a nice particle effect showing energy being drawn in or some such...same +agro and other detriments remain the same. For non staff bearers, well, open to ideas lol. Would be cool if different races or classes had different stances for this....spice things up a bit!
That sounds kind of defeatist. :(
Ideally, you would not need to use the in-combat mana regen state very infrequently. If it gains you hate, and you do it frequently, then your group may tell you to hit the road. That or you will be running back to your corpse a lot. I see it as a more of a "Oh sh*t" button when the group is about to wipe. That’s why the punitive side of the ability is necessary.
I don’t see it competing with enchanter or bard mana regen, because, in theory, you had their buffs the entire time, and you still ran OOM. Although, it does feel like this has less to do with the issue of sitting or standing, and it’s more a discussion about alternative mana regen mechanics. I’m not sure that was the intention of this thread.
MINX said:Well I am all for more active roles for caster classes, no arguement there. But yeah I'm still not seeing the picture. If it's only to be used in a clutch situation, and it generates agro....more and more agro at that while also making you more squishy and vulnerable....do you think that most people would use it rarely and default to the safer....wait a few seconds after casting, then sit and med normally tactic? Or are you envisioning this in an atmosphere were med has been removed from the game?
Not at all a scenario where med is removed from the game. It's just meditation with gameplay attached to it. Instead of combat med being relegated to merely sitting down, it becomes an ability that you use to serve the same purpose. It would be part gameplay, and part optics. Optics because it wouldn't look like just sitting, because you will be using an ability and having to pay attention. Think of it as a medding mini-game. After combat, players will still all need to rest if they lack health or mana.
Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting an ability that fully restores one's mana allowing players to continuously fight. I don't think that should be changed in any way. I think it would start out as giving you about the same amount of mana that sitting in combat would, and then scale up from there. It would be a skill check because it would have a cooldown, would have to be used in combat, but also need to be used intelligently to make the most out of it without leaving your party vulnerable while you cannot heal.
Just an idea. Or they could simply leave it exactly as it was in EQ, where there are large spans of time in every fight where you push a button, sit down and just watch as you regenerate mana. I don't particularly think that kind of inactivity is necessary to achieve the combat we are looking for with the need for resource management and downtime. I believe there are better ways to make that happen without having characters just sitting and watching.
Liav said:Sevens said:I agree with this, dont want every class to have spells/abilites to up mana regen...that should be in the realm of a few classes (chanters, bards, necro pumps, mage items and canni). I really really dont want the every class can do everything syndrome that has killed so many other MMOs
This unfortunately sounds like copy & pasting EQ's mana recovery tools perfectly.
I don't know why Necros ever had the ability to pump mana. It's so out of place for the class in general. As for Mages, same thing. I always thought mod rods were out of place. Canni I can be on board with, though. Enchanters and Bards too, because Enchanters are Bards are just straight up utility classes.
I hate that Mages and Necros were often forced into not performing their main function because of one gimmicky, out of place ability in their toolkit that outweighs their main fuction (DPS).
I agree with you actually, I can see necros with lich turning life into mana for self use but never understood why they could then pump other characters....the only reason I give a semi-pass on Mages with the mod rod is that mages were summoners, able to pull useful items out of thin air but yeah if they did away with that in Pantheon I wouldnt mind one bit
Dullahan said:MINX said:Well I am all for more active roles for caster classes, no arguement there. But yeah I'm still not seeing the picture. If it's only to be used in a clutch situation, and it generates agro....more and more agro at that while also making you more squishy and vulnerable....do you think that most people would use it rarely and default to the safer....wait a few seconds after casting, then sit and med normally tactic? Or are you envisioning this in an atmosphere were med has been removed from the game?
Not at all a scenario where med is removed from the game. It's just meditation with gameplay attached to it. Instead of combat med being relegated to merely sitting down, it becomes an ability that you use to serve the same purpose. It would be part gameplay, and part optics. Optics because it wouldn't look like just sitting, because you will be using an ability and having to pay attention. Think of it as a medding mini-game. After combat, players will still all need to rest if they lack health or mana.
Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting an ability that fully restores one's mana allowing players to continuously fight. I don't think that should be changed in any way. I think it would start out as giving you about the same amount of mana that sitting in combat would, and then scale up from there. It would be a skill check because it would have a cooldown, would have to be used in combat, but also need to be used intelligently to make the most out of it without leaving your party vulnerable while you cannot heal.
Just an idea. Or they could simply leave it exactly as it was in EQ, where there are large spans of time in every fight where you push a button, sit down and just watch as you regenerate mana. I don't particularly think that kind of inactivity is necessary to achieve the combat we are looking for with the need for resource management and downtime. I believe there are better ways to make that happen without having characters just sitting and watching.
But wouldnt this reduce or eliminat the social aspect of said downtime? I mean the whole purpose and the whole reason people are asking for EQ style downtime IS for the social interaction in game that it allows...If I have to play a medding mini game then I dont have the time to piss around and BS with my group mates. Sorry I dont believe that every single second of game time must be crammed with dev imposed "entertainment". Let me sit down (or however they handle the med animation) and relax for a few mins