I like the campfire idea. This can have multiple purposes.
First, let's hope the devs design PRF so that a group can either decide to set up camp somewhere and pull mobs to a designated spot to get great xp or can venture to a zone and do a good dungeon crawl. Maybe the group's makeup doesn't provide a ton of mana regen so the group decides to camp, whereas a dungeon crawl could be more suited to a group with good mana regen that doesn't require a lot of down time.
First, maybe torches have pros and cons to useing them. A player who wants to dual wield or sword and board or use a 2h weapon obviously won't be able to carry a torch while fighting. A player who casts spells may need both hands to cast spells or carry a 2h staff or an off hand item to enhance their spells. Basically, a point should come in the game where players will benefit more from not carrying torches and in this scenario they can set up a camp fire. It can light up the dungeon so the puller can bring mobs to the camp fire and the group can see and fight and get xp. OR maybe the group is outside and it is night time, and the group wants to set up a camp fire instead of use torches. Also, in cold climates players could be asked/required to 'warm' them selves or succumb to the cold environment and have a negative impact (debuffs). They can warm them selves either by a players magic (protection from cold) OR from the camp fire.
Setting up a camp fire could require time and effort from the players which is why it might not be suitable for a dungeon crawl but would provide great utility and benefit to a group who takes the time to set one up.
Once the campfire is set up it can provide the physical AND magical benefits such as warmth for a cold climate (players by the fire get a cold protection buff) as well as mana regen. Maybe a player can level up his campfire skill so that it provides more benefit. A level 1 campfire can produce warmth and light, a level 2 campfire can provide mana regen, a level 3 provides health regen, etc.
While the campfire is lit, the group then has to keep it lit in order to receive its benefits. So instead of a healer or caster just sitting during combat to med they can engage in the fight and then also maintain the fire. Maybe they have to feed it wood every so often. Obviously mobs would notice it and deem it a threat and try to extinguish the fire so that would make for a great source of aggro for the mobs and keep the group busy.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head, I think this would be a great feature to keep players engaged rather than just sitting down to med. I also hope that these early streams are just that...early gameplay. VG had some of THE best healing classes, where the healers were extremely engaging. The healers didn't have time to sit down during a fight because they had plenty to do. The clerics and disciples had great melee ability and the blood mages and shammies had great casting ability. They mended in between fights but rarely sat down during a fight and I'm hoping that the casters sitting down in these early streams are because their classes aren't fully fleshed out yet. But even so, I think this campfire idea could be a great feature if implemented well. What do yall think?
Giving it more thought, I actually think the best solution to this problem is to just disable regeneration from sitting or meditating while in combat. If you're in a stressful situation, it doesn't really make sense for you to be able "rest" or "meditate" under those circumstances.
During combat, you have the benefit of regen from items, abilities, buffs and food, but not the benefit of the greater regeneration from sitting around. This would naturally make combat much more active for everyone and would kill the bad optic of having people sitting around during the "action".
I believe they actually did this in an EQ emu called Shards of Dalaya and it worked well.
I'd like to see mana recovery split into 2 sections. Both keep immersion while making the gameplay look realistic.
Meditation - A skill used for when Out of Combat --- This is your EQ1 "Look at a Book" or better yet have it inflict blindless" but its your character closing its eyes to actually meditate. You can still hear sounds, see chat, ect. You cannot meditate while you or your party are in combat.
Combat Mana Recovery - Abilities used when in Combat --- This is what Final Fantasy 14 uses. The white mage class has access to an ability that removes some aggro from enemies, but also has a mana restoration component. It also has an ability that's instant cast to do a small AE group heal and a little bit of mana restoration. Other classes, such as the bard, has a song for group mana regeneration.
This is a pretty good example of healer gameplay in a standard 4 man dungeon in Final Fantasy 14: https://youtu.be/bTOvYjQ5O8k?t=1787
The camera is focused on the healer, and this character does not stop "doing things" for the entire fight. The healer struggles to keep the group alive just as much as the others fight off the bad guy. The trick to get your healer being active in the fight is to make spells heal for smaller amounts and use smaller amounts of mana, while tweaking in-combat mana regen just right. Mistakes from the players (Got hit by something they shouldnt have) will naturally cause the healer to heal more, using more mana more quickly.
Dullahan said:Giving it more thought, I actually think the best solution to this problem is to just disable regeneration from sitting or meditating while in combat. If you're in a stressful situation, it doesn't really make sense for you to be able "rest" or "meditate" under those circumstances.
During combat, you have the benefit of regen from items, abilities, buffs and food, but not the benefit of the greater regeneration from sitting around. This would naturally make combat much more active for everyone and would kill the bad optic of having people sitting around during the "action".
I believe they actually did this in an EQ emu called Shards of Dalaya and it worked well.
Exactly. No sitting once you are engaged.
Not the first time that the solution you suggest has been stated in this thread, Dullahan. From the perspective of realism, sitting in combat should go away. If we take Sevens's suggestion to add resource management for non-casters also; chain-pulling goes away as a behavior that must be designed arround. I find the combination of these two ideas to be very very compelling. It may move the dial a bit more in the direction of down-time, but built in down time is an important part of the design philosophy that will set this game apart.
Implementing the above changes would make managing adds an even more important aspect of the game. Abilities like hide, and invisibility, become much more valuable as utilities for preventing the interuption of the groups' medittation. As has been previously stated in this thread, the impact on the design of Raids would be significant. Using early EQ as a basis for analysis, Its hard to imagine an hour(s) long fight if mana regeneration is limited to base + clarity. I am absolutely against any action-RPG-like model for consumables. I am unsure what good raid design under such criteria should look like. If any of you have thoughts on the matter, please comment.
Outside of the questions of game design, I would argue that my very best gaming performances all happened in a quasi-meditative state of pure calm and focus. In the days of the original Counterstrike, I once killed the entire enemy team of 6 people after the rest of my team wiped on "Dust." I once won a 3 on 5 in League of Legends, leading my team to victory with Soraka (that was before they ruined her interesting, and unique, design by changing starcall so dramatically). I imagine that the best soldiers experience something similar when they head into combat. For all I know, they may use combat stims designed to promote such a state of mind. All this being said, I still think that it is appropriate to require being out of combat for meditation to have any bearing on mana regeneration. - edit for punctuation
With chain pulling, the puller usually didn't expend much mana or even time fighting (unless they pulled a train). They just wouldn't use many spells or abilities if they decided to fight. If need be, every few pulls someone else could rotate in and pull while they recovered their mana/energy. I don't really see this stopping chain pulling.
I just realized you were referring to some sort of group wide aggro to break meditation, but there is no reason to do that. Aggro should be per individual. If you're not engaged with a mob you should be able to meditate. If they wanted to go for better optics, they could make it so rest/med is broken when within x range of a hostile mob, so the player has to sit back away from the mobs. Otherwise they should have to be on the aggro list to prevent resting.
The idea of being unable to do whatever you like during combat just feels wrong to me. I could just imagine playing a healer and having hots/auras or something on the group and every time a little spider taps a member of the party, then I lose all my concentration on mana regen. The only reason why meditation doesn't make sense mid-combat is because it's called meditation instead of something lore/situation appropriate (someone else here already mentioned we don't have to stick to meditation/sitting as our term to describe this mechanic). As I see it, the issue here is that you shouldn't sit/meditate when you're in danger and in the heat of battle. If half your party is squishing bugs, then you are not in danger or in the heat of battle, but you are in combat. I'm sure these issues would be few and far between, but wouldn't you be annoyed if you couldn't regen because you were on the aggro list of a mob that was being trained to zone?
Mechanically speaking I believe both systems can work (also stylistically, but that's my opinion).
No actions for in-combat mana regeneration: Mana regeneration is entirely passive until combat has ended. In combat mana regeneration is composed of base+buffs. Either you match mana drain rate of your spells to the base regen+buff regen (constantly casting spells) or you provide mana-free action alternatives to perform while waiting for regen. This could certainly make for a good mechanic if the mana-free abilities are as well thought out as their mana-using counterparts. You always want a system that gives players a sense of control, so if a healer can only autoattack after they run out of mana, they will feel useless once they run out of juice.
In-combat mana regeneration allowed: Mana regeneration is entirely passive until combat has ended. In combat mana regeneration is composed of base+buffs. Mana-free alternatives don't have to be well thought out, since your time is split between spending mana and actively regenerating it. As with the other system, the devil is in the details, so as long as the "focused mana regeneration" period keeps you engaged (to the desired degree) and is combat-appropriate, then it won't feel out of place. "Focused mana regeneration" would allow casters to actively regenerate mana to keep up with combat, or to perform extra duties (healers/support could add dps or rebuff if at max mana and the like).
I think that the in-combat mana regeneration approach would be the most appealing solution in the grand scheme. This is because I feel like some melee (and perhaps the ranger) already fill the role of a class without in-combat resource regeneration. From the rogue's perspective that we saw in the most recent stream he had a stamina pool that would fill up passively and the rogue would use abilities that drain their stamina and just auto-attack or use stamina-free abilities in between. We did not see any active regeneration of stamina. Having in-combat mana regeneration for casters would allow for more mechanical distinction between the class types.
Amsai, I would have to say that I agree with your statements, but not with their underlying assumptions. There should be some support roles for mana regeneration and they should not be rendered ineffective through a universal regeneration mechanic. However, I don't believe that a personal mana regenerating action without cooldown would negate the benefit and importance of a mana-support ability. Mana regeneration provided by support classes just shift the proportion of combat to casting spells. If you can sit to regen in-combat (or some other more appropriate mechanic), then a mana regeneration buff will cause you to sit less (or not at all), which is still highly valuable.
Mechanically these two systems are very similar and don't have truly distinct difference from one another in terms of balance. It's all about the question: What do you want to do when OOM. Do you want to work towards getting back mana? Do you want to auto attack or use mana-free abilities? Do you want to bandage your teammates? If you want to work towards getting mana back, then finding an appealing replacement for meditation is the way to go.
The value of support classes does not depend on the choice personal mana regeneration mechanics, only the balancing of it.
Ainadak said:Amsai, I would have to say that I agree with your statements, but not with their underlying assumptions. There should be some support roles for mana regeneration and they should not be rendered ineffective through a universal regeneration mechanic. However, I don't believe that a personal mana regenerating action without cooldown would negate the benefit and importance of a mana-support ability. Mana regeneration provided by support classes just shift the proportion of combat to casting spells. If you can sit to regen in-combat (or some other more appropriate mechanic), then a mana regeneration buff will cause you to sit less (or not at all), which is still highly valuable.
Mechanically these two systems are very similar and don't have truly distinct difference from one another in terms of balance. It's all about the question: What do you want to do when OOM. Do you want to work towards getting back mana? Do you want to auto attack or use mana-free abilities? Do you want to bandage your teammates? If you want to work towards getting mana back, then finding an appealing replacement for meditation is the way to go.
The value of support classes does not depend on the choice personal mana regeneration mechanics, only the balancing of it.
Its not an assumption but a preference for me. I dont know what the devs will ultimately do. I do think that they are more in favor of giving most if not all classes support abilities. A direction Im not in favor of as I think they should have also put more emphasis on Support roles as they did CC roles along with the idea of interdependency. And called it the Quintinity. Primary support roles are woefully under-rated in my opinion. And this has colored my opinion heavily about how mana regeneration and support function in general should be handled.
What do you want to do when OOM?
As I said earlier I think some concessions could be made, but ultimately if it were up to me if you dont have a support class that can consistantly supply mana to other classes, then you deserve a lot of down time. Just like with any other major role. Without a Tank , or without a Healer, or without CC expect your party not to run as smoothly as it ought to if you had a well balanced party. Thats not to say it should be impossible. But I would hope that it is possible in the same way that solo is possible. Doable but not without danger and definitely not ideal or efficient.
Now how support classes supply the mana is not my concern as long as it fits the lore and theme of a class. But I dont think that should mean that every support class should be able to use attack abilities for instance to gain mana back. In some cases it should just be a buff casted. In some cases maybe it could be a melee ability. Really depends on the theme of the support class.
Ainadak said:Its all about the question: What do you want to do when OOM.
I want to sit my toon down, take a nice bio-break, refill my drink, and put some Chinsee food on my plate.
During the next meditation cycle, I will eat aforementioned Chinese food and ***** that everyone is breaking my mezzes.
Amsai said:As I said earlier I think some concessions could be made, but ultimately if it were up to me if you dont have a support class that can consistantly supply mana to other classes, then you deserve a lot of down time. Just like with any other major role.
Beefcake said:I want to sit my toon down, take a nice bio-break, refill my drink, and put some Chinsee food on my plate.
During the next meditation cycle, I will eat aforementioned Chinese food and ***** that everyone is breaking my mezzes.
Well you two sure make it nice and easy to find some nice spacious middleground.
I think Amsai has a good vision for support, but I just don't know if I can get on board with it. Having support be such a crucial role really means that each group should have a support class in it. Any single group of 6 people would suffer gravely if they don't have 5 unique roles filled (tank, healer, dps, cc, support), with only 1 "overflow" slot. If they move to 7-8 man groups, then I could see supports being a pillar of a quintinity as you say. However, if it stays as 6, then I would prefer the quaternity approach. As a result of this reasoning, I would like to see an in-combat personal mana regeneration approach for each class.
As for Beefcake, you have made this sort of statement before and I strongly disagree. If you're playing content that is level-appropriate, then I would hope that Pantheon actually follows through with the "challenge" that they've been touting. Going afk to get Chinese food is hardly challenging, lol.
Ainadak said:Amsai said:As I said earlier I think some concessions could be made, but ultimately if it were up to me if you dont have a support class that can consistantly supply mana to other classes, then you deserve a lot of down time. Just like with any other major role.
Beefcake said:I want to sit my toon down, take a nice bio-break, refill my drink, and put some Chinsee food on my plate.
During the next meditation cycle, I will eat aforementioned Chinese food and ***** that everyone is breaking my mezzes.
Well you two sure make it nice and easy to find some nice spacious middleground.
I think Amsai has a good vision for support, but I just don't know if I can get on board with it. Having support be such a crucial role really means that each group should have a support class in it. Any single group of 6 people would suffer gravely if they don't have 5 unique roles filled (tank, healer, dps, cc, support), with only 1 "overflow" slot. If they move to 7-8 man groups, then I could see supports being a pillar of a quintinity as you say. However, if it stays as 6, then I would prefer the quaternity approach. As a result of this reasoning, I would like to see an in-combat personal mana regeneration approach for each class.
As for Beefcake, you have made this sort of statement before and I strongly disagree. If you're playing content that is level-appropriate, then I would hope that Pantheon actually follows through with the "challenge" that they've been touting. Going afk to get Chinese food is hardly challenging, lol.
The question I was responding to was about what to do while meditating, which intended to be forced downtime.
Obviously, the my planned afk is during medding/downtime, not combat. Or, do you expect them to make downtime challenging also?
Enitzu said:Katalyzt said: It could go as far as to obstruct your sight with your spell book, similar to early vanilla EQ.This is the 1 absolute thing I do not want as a caster. This being in the game would completely cut casters out of my possibilities. Could not stand looking at a book
Spellbook filling your whole page, during a raid...puller pulling multiple times, you can't see what's going on ..AND the mobs head for you because you are seated and therefore high on their agro list. I got good at listening for the pitter patter of "little feet" but it would cause me unnecessary deaths..if I absolutely needed to stay sat to regain mana. It was cause for laughter from the melee types, but wasn't too funny to me, because in EQ death matters. Let's not do that one, a small book open in the corner of my screen is fine. That way I can see what's coming at me..and can jump up. Oh and I absolutely disapprove of afk team members..UNLESS the whole team has decided to say take a five minute break. We would boot afkers out for the most part, if there was no attempt on their part to jump up and help with the fight...we called them leechers. :P
Beefcake said:The question I was responding to was about what to do while meditating, which intended to be forced downtime.
Obviously, the my planned afk is during medding/downtime, not combat. Or, do you expect them to make downtime challenging also?
Actually, the question you were answering (as evidenced by quote you selected to respond to) was what to do when out of mana, not what to do during forced downtime. The game currently includes combat meditating, which does not mean afk chinese food time. During the most recent live stream the devs would indeed run out of mana while in combat and had to meditate to try and get off a few more spells. I am arguing for a mechanic that is more engaging than the current version of in combat meditation.
Ainadak said:Actually, the question you were answering (as evidenced by quote you selected to respond to) was what to do when out of mana, not what to do during forced downtime. The game currently includes combat meditating, which does not mean afk chinese food time. During the most recent live stream the devs would indeed run out of mana while in combat and had to meditate to try and get off a few more spells. I am arguing for a mechanic that is more engaging than the current version of in combat meditation.
I think most of us are in agreement here. We think some sort of ability, probably on a cooldown and which can only be used in combat, instead of simply sitting down.
The simplest solution short-term solution could be to merely change the animation for combat meditation to something that looks more active than sitting in the middle of what should be a dangerous situation. This would be a visual change.
The longer-term solution would be a mechanical change. Ideally, removing traditional resting/meditation from combat and providing at least some classes with a separate ability to restore mana which may come with some form of risk. It could stun them, root them, increase threat, drain health, temporarily lower spell effectiveness (just ideas) etc. I say "some" classes, but it should really exist for any class whose role is heavily resource-bound, which should be everyone, imo.
Then out of combat regeneration will remain both the most effective and safest way to meditate. This should never change, or we end up eliminating downtime and everything that comes with that.
@Ainadak
Well that was basically me wishing and doing my armchair dev thing. Through one exchange I had with a dev it was made pretty clear, that they arent doing it that way. They plan to sprinkle support to all classes, some more than others.
But thats not to say there wouldnt be some wiggle room in the limit the classes that can mana regen department. Which I still think is good for balance purposes.
I do think there should be a form of medding in the game. I like the idea of having different stages of medding: Standing, kneeling and sitting, with different med rates. In addition to that, I think having your spellbook open should speed it up as well, but it shouldn't fill your entire screen, blocking your view.
Not to be super antagonistic, but I feel like the idea that 'you shouldn't have outside medding support' from, well, support jobs (enchanter/bard/??? (pls summoner) because that adds a basically required class is pretty arbitrary. Literally the exact same thing could be said about tanking, healing and cc, and that justification is one of the reasons that lead to cc and support jobs being removed from modern games.
I would prefer solutions that foster class interdependence. To tackle balance issues I would prefer to see classes that synergize uniquely, not just with each other but also versus particular types of environs. I figure as long as there are a variety of types of monsters at a given level range for which there are varieties of jobs considered 'ideal' then you are solid.
Ainadak said:Beefcake said:The question I was responding to was about what to do while meditating, which intended to be forced downtime.
Obviously, the my planned afk is during medding/downtime, not combat. Or, do you expect them to make downtime challenging also?
Actually, the question you were answering (as evidenced by quote you selected to respond to) was what to do when out of mana, not what to do during forced downtime. The game currently includes combat meditating, which does not mean afk chinese food time. During the most recent live stream the devs would indeed run out of mana while in combat and had to meditate to try and get off a few more spells. I am arguing for a mechanic that is more engaging than the current version of in combat meditation.
Maybe before getting all snarky, you should read all the responses and see that I previously stated that there should no in-combat meditation outside of a support class buffing a player. Therefore, when I responded to what do I want to do while meddling, I was clearly referring to being out of combat.
Next time, challenge yourself and read a little before accusing people of wanting an easy game.
Jimmayus said:Not to be super antagonistic, but I feel like the idea that 'you shouldn't have outside medding support' from, well, support jobs (enchanter/bard/??? (pls summoner) because that adds a basically required class is pretty arbitrary. Literally the exact same thing could be said about tanking, healing and cc, and that justification is one of the reasons that lead to cc and support jobs being removed from modern games.
I would prefer solutions that foster class interdependence. To tackle balance issues I would prefer to see classes that synergize uniquely, not just with each other but also versus particular types of environs. I figure as long as there are a variety of types of monsters at a given level range for which there are varieties of jobs considered 'ideal' then you are solid.
The is the whole reason I will be playing an Enchanter as my main.