@Tanix I ask that you reread my posts with out Jaded thoughts. I am in no way, shape or form asking for the game to be run from one encounter to the next. For every class be boom boom DPS. Nor VR compermise on their vision. I am just making an observation that in the current streams the amount of meditation DURING the fight seems way off. IE no fun. Seems we both played EQ 20 years ago. I was in a top teir guild, I was not one of the people that jumped ship when WoW came out.
With that said as my research on the boss fight shows a major down fall. Even in EQ pre PoP we didn't have healers(especially with two in a group) needing that much down time. Yes it it early in development but this is the time to point things out. Even if they sped up the fighting which bogles my mind. It still shows over 60% of the fight was sat on the ground by the healers.
I have tried getting excited about many new MMOs chasing the Evercrack feeling. I usually just research research and drag friends/family from game to game. I hate typing but am going to put my whole lot of two cents in. Not to get the to comprimse but to get them make a great game I can call Home.
vjek said:Vandraad said:I think the charcters in the stream (COHH, etc) are on a special dev server that is running different algorithms. I can't be sure of that though.
When did they ever say this?
I remember reading that they had some modifications to play in order to fit their stream into a practical viewing session. I could be mistaken, but this is wjhat I remember reading somewhere.
Paloo said:@Tanix I ask that you reread my posts with out Jaded thoughts. I am in no way, shape or form asking for the game to be run from one encounter to the next. For every class be boom boom DPS. Nor VR compermise on their vision. I am just making an observation that in the current streams the amount of meditation DURING the fight seems way off. IE no fun. Seems we both played EQ 20 years ago. I was in a top teir guild, I was not one of the people that jumped ship when WoW came out.
With that said as my research on the boss fight shows a major down fall. Even in EQ pre PoP we didn't have healers(especially with two in a group) needing that much down time. Yes it it early in development but this is the time to point things out. Even if they sped up the fighting which bogles my mind. It still shows over 60% of the fight was sat on the ground by the healers.
I have tried getting excited about many new MMOs chasing the Evercrack feeling. I usually just research research and drag friends/family from game to game. I hate typing but am going to put my whole lot of two cents in. Not to get the to comprimse but to get them make a great game I can call Home.
May I ask what gear we are talking here? Because I played in the same timeframe, and I sure remember alot of downtime. Granted, I wasn't a cleric, but I did do alot of heal work. If we are not talking downtime measured in more than a few minutes, then our recollection is vastly different, or you were at the stage where you were overpowering the content with numbers and gear.
Can you clarify?
@Darck I guess I do need to clarify better. In no way am I talking about in between fight down time or asking for no down time. Just seems a little concerning to me the amount of time in combat sitting in the streams I have seen. As far as gear we where talking um yes I had singing short sword before most. No I was notin a zerg guild. But even before epic was had I would set up groups and level via mez pulling in almost any zone. Yes it made things easier being a bard. Since I spent most of my time away from group they didn't have more then 12 seconds of any of my songs. I would littarly non stop run out bring several mobs back and mez park while they usually still killing last bactch. Every three or four pulls healer would OOM at me and I will stay to finish off that batch so he/she would have Med time. But that is out of battle med time. Not what I am talking about all. I am strictly talking in combat med time.
Do you think the two healers I clocked on the stream that meditated morethen 65% of the fight would be fun to play.
Once again I am not asking for no down time, no resorce managment. I just made an observastion.
I think the system utilized in EQ2 struck a pretty good balance of meditation, and using food and drink.
Having a crafted food or drink buff active would increase out of combat health/mana regen. The better the crafted drink, the better the mana regen.
I felt it was a good system, because it created interdependecy between players - only basic food and drink could be purchased from vendors. The good stuff was only made by players, and I'm really hoping they implement something like this with summoned food and drink, and the Provisioner crafting spec.
That said, watching how much time is spent medding during battle, I don't feel it's too bad TBH. But, we also have to remember that this is pre-alpha, and from what I have seen and understood from the live streams, there's a ton of stuff not yet implemented. Crafting, and how food and drink will interact with, and buff the resource management is a major one - crafting hasn't even been implemented yet. I assume that having well-crafted food and drink, along with group buffs, would probably help mitigate a lot of the perceived down time.
I don't mind meditation, and take it as a necessary evil of playing a caster or healer. If I wanted more button mashing and in-your-face action, I could play a tank or melee DPS. I think the balance and trade-off for types of play style is refreshing, and I for one am not bothered by the need for meditation during long-fought, or difficult battles.
Paloo said:@Darck I guess I do need to clarify better. In no way am I talking about in between fight down time or asking for no down time. Just seems a little concerning to me the amount of time in combat sitting in the streams I have seen. As far as gear we where talking um yes I had singing short sword before most. No I was notin a zerg guild. But even before epic was had I would set up groups and level via mez pulling in almost any zone. Yes it made things easier being a bard. Since I spent most of my time away from group they didn't have more then 12 seconds of any of my songs. I would littarly non stop run out bring several mobs back and mez park while they usually still killing last bactch. Every three or four pulls healer would OOM at me and I will stay to finish off that batch so he/she would have Med time. But that is out of battle med time. Not what I am talking about all. I am strictly talking in combat med time.
Do you think the two healers I clocked on the stream that meditated morethen 65% of the fight would be fun to play.
Once again I am not asking for no down time, no resorce managment. I just made an observastion.
Having played the healer, sometimes primary, I can tell you that you either accepted such things as downtime in or out of combat, or you didn't play the healer. Granted as a Druid I had the versatility to do quite a few roles, so I wasn't quite as pidgeon holed as folks tended to push clerics into being. Downtime or simply playing overwatch for your group was the job of the healer, either way you were waiting quite often. Managing when you could park yourself to regen mana was part of the strategy. I'm sure to some folks, that is NOT fun. Just as to some, twisting songs all the time seems like alot less fun even than that, but to those that enjoy the bard, it was a challenge to see how many you could spin out at once and keep them all up. Very subjective reasoning. Noone is going to enjoy every role with all that it entails.
We will have to see how this game's iteration of classes pans out in practice. Seeing how emergent gameplay unfolds should be interesting. I definetly don't think they should go too far in minimizing aspects that were part of a strategy of play that seperated the really good players from the rest though.
Lol I love how sitting would greatly increase the aggro of the mob in early eq
BitCrunzh said:I really like the EQ1 meditation mechanic, but I agree that the visualization of it is not fitting, and probably wasnt even back then. I really liked the long fights where I as a cleric went out of mana and had to sit as fast as possible after a heal to regen enough mana for the tank and group to survive. The feeling of urgency was just great.
The base mechanic is about getting a higher mana regen, at the cost of a higher threat/aggro level. So whatever lore/visualization we/they can come up to fit that in, Im all in for it.
Paloo said: With that said as my research on the boss fight shows a major down fall. Even in EQ pre PoP we didn't have healers(especially with two in a group) needing that much down time. Yes it it early in development but this is the time to point things out. Even if they sped up the fighting which bogles my mind. It still shows over 60% of the fight was sat on the ground by the healers.
I mained a cleric in EQ from the beginning until EQ2 came out. I spent most of my time on my butt. I had to meditate so much that I even remember getting moaned at by groups if I cast anything fun like my magic hammer, because I would be slowing down the group as it wasn't the most mana efficient use of my efforts.
Basically, in almost every group, the progress rate was utterly dependant on my mana.
I'm fine with downtime, but I hope it's not all about the cleric still in Pantheon. The constant pressure to be extremely mana effecient wasn't entirely fun.
Golden Rule - In a life or death combat situation, you DO NOT sit down on the ground. A combatant sitting on the ground must incur a GUARANTEED critical hit, with damage multiplier AND a high probability of a stun (knocked the F out) if not a chance of certain death.
I would factor everything around this golden rule. Sitting should increase your mana and health regeneration, but you better not do it anywhere near hostile opponents. Hostile NPC's of all levels should immediately pounce on a seated opponent, why wouldn't they? This is far beyond a Taunt, it's a guaranteed killshot. An opponent on the ground CANNOT defend themselves, they have zero mobility.
Now then, standing combat meditations would be soOooOo cool. Short abilities that could have varying standing poses based on Race/Class, whereby the casters vision blurs (not blacked out), they are immovable for the duration (3-7 seconds?), cannot perform any other action and upon completion would receive a bump of mana, and possibly a mana regen increase for a short duration after. Slight increase in nearby hostile NPC aggro, but no where near that of sitting on the ground like an absolute idjit. Slight decrease in defensive probability of blow avoidance (armor class, agility? whatever we are using). Some ideas of poses:
I never commented on this post and would like to give my two cents... I would like to see meditation (the ability to gain mana back more efficiently) come in 3 different stages if the player chooses.
1st stage: The player enters a state of thought, this last 5 seconds, a book animation signifies this action, and after 5 seconds, gains back a small buff that has a mild improvement to mana regeneration. This has a cooldown that blocks meditation of any kind of being used. (Cooldown would have to be determined / tested ) If this state is broken early, the player has a “debuff” effect that limits cast time or movement and reduces mana regen shortly. Player can continue to move while in this mild state, but at a slower pace.
2nd stage: The player enters a state of focus, this last 10 seconds, a kneel animation signifies this action (limits movement), and after 10 seconds, gains back a portion of mana plus a small buff that has an improvement to mana regeneration. This has a cooldown that blocks meditation of any kind of being used. (Cooldown would have to be determined / tested). If this state is broken early, the player has an “debuff” effect that limits cast time and or movement, or casting speed, and reduces mana regen shortly.
3rd stage: The player eneters a state of Meditation, this lasts 20 seconds, a meditative animation signifies this action (limits movement and vision), and after 20 seconds gains back a large portion of mana plus a buff that improves mana regeneration for a short time. This has a cooldown that blocks meditation of any kind of being used. (Cooldown would have to be determined / tested). If this state is broken early, the player has a “debuff” efect that greatly limits the players cast time and movement speed, and reduces mana regen for a short time.
Just some thoughts I had that would give the caster a LOT of options to regain mana. This would have to be managed carefully or could work against you and the group or raid.
buckmaster said:Golden Rule - In a life or death combat situation, you DO NOT sit down on the ground. A combatant sitting on the ground must incur a GUARANTEED critical hit, with damage multiplier AND a high probability of a stun (knocked the F out) if not a chance of certain death.
I would factor everything around this golden rule. Sitting should increase your mana and health regeneration, but you better not do it anywhere near hostile opponents. Hostile NPC's of all levels should immediately pounce on a seated opponent, why wouldn't they? This is far beyond a Taunt, it's a guaranteed killshot. An opponent on the ground CANNOT defend themselves, they have zero mobility.
Now then, standing combat meditations would be soOooOo cool. Short abilities that could have varying standing poses based on Race/Class, whereby the casters vision blurs (not blacked out), they are immovable for the duration (3-7 seconds?), cannot perform any other action and upon completion would receive a bump of mana, and possibly a mana regen increase for a short duration after. Slight increase in nearby hostile NPC aggro, but no where near that of sitting on the ground like an absolute idjit. Slight decrease in defensive probability of blow avoidance (armor class, agility? whatever we are using). Some ideas of poses:
I don't agree with your blanket statement that while sitting you cannot defend yourself. I would say you are more likely to gain the attention of enemies that would perceive you are more vulerable to attack while sitting.
--- My opinions are not humble, they are just my opinions. ---
