We still don't know the extent to which specific caster spells and abilities will add to their mana pool, nor do we have extensive evaluation from any of the streams regarding this;
From the Druid's spell Verdanfire Seed:
"Y% of the effective healing your target receives will be refunded to you as Mana."
We don't even know if there are other spells and abilities that will assist with mana regen while remaining engaged in combat (we don't have complete spell lists yet) and the game is still in Pre-Alpha. Many things can be changed, withdrawn, or added.
I think with the limited time and resource for these streams it's really too soon to make unecessary judgements. And anyway, it's no surprise that most people will sit and med (at least for now) because it's a viable way to regenerate and it's something most of the fan base (EQI) are already accustomed too.
If memory serves, neither my Druid or Cleric had an ability like this at level 25 back in the day. Shaman had Cani but in terms of being a noticable improvement in combat engagement, it never seemed to make combat significantly more involved than just sitting when needed.
@OakKnower
I don't think anyone here is making unnecessary judgments, just giving feedback per what we've seen so that the developers are aware of what players are paying attention to, and perhaps want some adjustments on. That's a pretty important part of a development cycle where community feedback is important.
Sicario said:@OakKnower
I don't think anyone here is making unnecessary judgments, just giving feedback per what we've seen so that the developers are aware of what players are paying attention to, and perhaps want some adjustments on. That's a pretty important part of a development cycle where community feedback is important.
Sicario, I didn't mean to sound too harsh saying that. It's just that the streams are really only teaser's for the supportive audience not comprehensive evaluations of the state of the game. There are other elements to the game that have not been released yet and will likely affect meditation directly. We are simply not aware of them at this stage in development.
Also, I think it's important to consider that many of these streams are excedingly impromtu and are not an accurate reflection of experienced players who have degrees of familiarity, or a more thorough understanding of class and group dynamics.
It seems without full discourse of class, group and game dynamics and considering that what we are viewing in these streams is not extensive play, that we don't have enough information to base strong opinions on. I'm only suggesting it might be premature to come to such conclusions.
Already though, it seems that they are making strides to move a bit further away from the standard EQ style meditation by incorporating spell effects that return mana--but I have not been able to adequately determine if it's too much or not even required at this point because our knowledge is fairly limited yet.
OakKnower said:Also, I think it's important to consider that many of these streams are excedingly impromtu and are not an accurate reflection of experienced players who have degrees of familiarity, or a more thorough understanding of class and group dynamics.
It seems without full discourse of class, group and game dynamics and considering that what we are viewing in these streams is not extensive play, that we don't have enough information to base strong opinions on. I'm only suggesting it might be premature to come to such conclusions.
I agree, but the most vehement discussions on this topic come about because of the disagreement between those who dislike medding in combat and those who think it should stay; independent of that I don't think I've seen anyone responding directly to the stream footage in a completely knee-jerk way. And that's just how it goes in forum discussions. When people disagree, things get a bit heated and people start giving their opinions more forcefully.
I know this topic is a big point of contention right now, but I thought I'd throw my 2 copper. I'm happy with the current implementation.
To those complaining about meditation not being very 'engaging', and wanting more action, please understand that a lot of us are attracted to Pantheon precisely because of the promise of slower combat. I don't want to play mini-games to get mana.
Other 'modern' MMO's are designed to be video games at heart. Fast pace, timing, execution. It makes for a great video game, and requires a lot of skill, but doesn't simulate the experience of an actual Role Playing game for me. Compare this to tabletop RPG battles, with rounds and the time to stop and think about the battle and consider options. I really enjoy that pace more. Also there are variables to watch, and other things to do while meditating. If you literally just hit /sit and did nothing else, you weren't a very good caster/healer at all.
Things I would do as a caster/healer in EQ:
Checking the combat log (gasp!), eyeballing buff durations/checking for debuffs, running a quick count on inventory items, shooting off a brief message, watching positioning, advising others, keeping my head on a swivel for adds, and just watching the flow of the fight in general. Being ready to act on a moments notice. No, that's not engaging for some. But it really is ok for a lot of us. There are plenty of 'engaging' MMO's out there that require you to constantly be hitting buttons to be effective.
Finally, if you're worried about boxing, you could box pretty much any class in EQ too. Warriors, Monks, Chanters, Shaman, Clerics, etc. - didn't matter. The difference was usually immediately obvious.
Orangemilk said:To those complaining about meditation not being very 'engaging', and wanting more action, please understand that a lot of us are attracted to Pantheon precisely because of the promise of slower combat. I don't want to play mini-games to get mana.
Please stop assuming everyone who wants something different from EQ's implementation of medding/downtime automatically wants it to be just like WoW. As I said on the last page:
I watched the full stream and listened to them discuss their reason for meditating as a mechanic, and it seems to me that FFXI nailed a design that perfectly fits their intent, and it would be healthier for the game if players opposed to the change discuss the actual merits of the design and the alternatives being raised rather than assuming that because some people want a design different from how EQ worked that automatically means they want "instant gratification" rather than just a different means of achieving the same goal. Both here and on Reddit I see a lot of talking around the actual arguments being made in favor of just saying "change bad" and it's just disheartening.
Eamil said:Orangemilk said:To those complaining about meditation not being very 'engaging', and wanting more action, please understand that a lot of us are attracted to Pantheon precisely because of the promise of slower combat. I don't want to play mini-games to get mana.
Please stop assuming everyone who wants something different from EQ's implementation of medding/downtime automatically wants it to be just like WoW. As I said on the last page:
I watched the full stream and listened to them discuss their reason for meditating as a mechanic, and it seems to me that FFXI nailed a design that perfectly fits their intent, and it would be healthier for the game if players opposed to the change discuss the actual merits of the design and the alternatives being raised rather than assuming that because some people want a design different from how EQ worked that automatically means they want "instant gratification" rather than just a different means of achieving the same goal. Both here and on Reddit I see a lot of talking around the actual arguments being made in favor of just saying "change bad" and it's just disheartening.
That or they like it how it is, personally there is a larger benefit than just getting mana back from the whole meditation thing, and people are twisting meditation into something thats not meditation at all and for no real concrete reason other than "give us something differnt"...well what exactly do you want it to be? do you have a concrete idea? have you considered the resources it would take to put such a system into effect?, its easy to be on the outside looking in trying to direct things, its like the work field, your boss tells you what to do, but really has no idea what it takes to do what he wants you to do, a little consideration goes a long way. Dont tell them what to do....show them, otherwise leave it
I don't think people are misrepresenting the facts, Riqq, or twisting anything into anything.
Sitting, in combat, sucks. You have an insane modifier to threat generation, such that if you cast a nuke or heal, and then try to sit, the monster will often stop disengaging the melee that are actively harming it, and immediately run to where you are and crit you, then run back to the melee. If you try to sit again, it will happen again.
I've seen Paladins use this technique to conga line dozens of mobs in the Plane of Fear. Sit, stand, sit, stand, repeatedly while any number of actions are taken, because sit aggro is such a powerful exploit, under those conditions. This can continue for many minutes, if desired. The mobs are stuck pathing and do nothing else. It's silly, but consistently reproducible.
I've played casters and melee, and being expected to sit during combat, but not take aggro, is one of those very strange illogical workarounds to bad design and bad implementation. I mean, objectively, it's bad design to have threat generation be so high, while performing your role, that you overshadow all other forms of threat generation, just by sitting on your butt. I've seen raids wiped because a healer buffed someone and then sat down at the wrong time, prior to the fight starting (typically, during the pull). For a raid mob to consider that healer the highest threat? Again, silly.
There are many, many ways that have been enumerated on these forums, and on reddit, that show the creativity of the community when it comes to methods for mana regeneration that aren't sitting on your butt.
Yet, some players are very concerned because of a few things..
First, this is new. Prior to this, meditation could be done while standing up, but that wasn't shown in the november 29th stream. Can you still meditate standing up? Does it generate sit aggro? No-one knows. That is causing anxiety to people that had to endure these mechanics in EQ1 for the past ~20 years. Until mounts came along, and they finally got a reprieve in outdoor zones, at least. If standing meditation is still a thing, then I think some of the anxiety would be lessened.
Second, in EQ1, if auto attack, for a caster, is on, that is, if they're actively trying to engage in combat? Mana regen is set to zero. Not just lower than if you're sitting, it's zero. You can go and verify that right now if you don't believe it. Zero. So, if that type of design and implementation is going to make it's way into Pantheon, I think casters have a good reason to be concerned. That one mechanic overshadows all others, when it comes to mana regen. It boils down to, if you're not sitting on your butt, you're not doing the absolute best you can to regenerate mana so that if we need you to cast a spell, you can cast it.
Now, if things like Verdanfire Seed turn out to generate MORE mana than sitting in combat? Well that would be fantastic. Yet, for the same class, wildfire breaks mezzes, and for an AoE heal, that is a very strange feature. If you are AoE healing, it seems likely more than one person has been hurt, which is more likely when there are multiple mobs, which would lead to crowd control. So, on one hand, you have a mechanic which sounds awesome, but there's very few situations where it actually makes sense that you would use it, unless you want to make the crowd control classes/roles very very angry. Why am I pointing this out? Because it's an illogical design and implementation, again. If wildfire didn't break mezzes, there would be no discussion about how it's illogical. If meditating in combat didn't generate threat aggro like it does in EQ1, there would be less outcry.
Giving each combat resource (like mana) class the ability to recover or generate that resource in or out of combat isn't difficult. Many of the classes in Pantheon have been designed and implemented, so far, to do that in unique, fun, challenging, and innovative ways.
Except WIS & INT casters. For those, from the november 29th videos, you get to sit on your butt. Well, that's just not fun, challenging, or innovative. Yet, the other classes get fun, challenging, and innovative. Is that class envy? Yes it is. It's also justified class envy. Sometimes, one mechanic or implementation is clearly superior, and in this case, at this time, that's true.
Now, if Visionary Realms plans to have combat or role base mana regen, for every class, including WIS & INT casters, then they should be out in front of the concerned citizens placating them. Instead of being silent. That's what community managers do, right? They handle. They spin. Well, where's the handling? Where's the spin? Has meditate been adjusted so you can't do it standing, any more, in combat? If yes, tell us. If no, tell us.
That's what's more disconcerting. If the plan isn't to fix this, then what's happened so far is normal. When devs don't want to give bad news, they stay silent. Just like they have so far.
If there has always been a plan to address this issue, then they should share it. Making one public statement of "It is a launch day goal to provide all mana consuming classes the ability to regenerate mana in-combat, and those abilities will all be superior to meditating in combat" then who cares? Then the community would be brainstorming and theorycrafting how that goal could be or will be achieved, instead of the toxic infighting and backbiting we see here and on social media.
It doesn't take much to herd the cats, but it does take some effort.
vjek said:I don't think people are misrepresenting the facts, Riqq, or twisting anything into anything.
Sitting, in combat, sucks. You have an insane modifier to threat generation, such that if you cast a nuke or heal, and then try to sit, the monster will often stop disengaging the melee that are actively harming it, and immediately run to where you are and crit you, then run back to the melee. If you try to sit again, it will happen again.
I've seen Paladins use this technique to conga line dozens of mobs in the Plane of Fear. Sit, stand, sit, stand, repeatedly while any number of actions are taken, because sit aggro is such a powerful exploit, under those conditions. This can continue for many minutes, if desired. The mobs are stuck pathing and do nothing else. It's silly, but consistently reproducible.
I've played casters and melee, and being expected to sit during combat, but not take aggro, is one of those very strange illogical workarounds to bad design and bad implementation. I mean, objectively, it's bad design to have threat generation be so high, while performing your role, that you overshadow all other forms of threat generation, just by sitting on your butt. I've seen raids wiped because a healer buffed someone and then sat down at the wrong time, prior to the fight starting (typically, during the pull). For a raid mob to consider that healer the highest threat? Again, silly.
There are many, many ways that have been enumerated on these forums, and on reddit, that show the creativity of the community when it comes to methods for mana regeneration that aren't sitting on your butt.
Yet, some players are very concerned because of a few things..First, this is new. Prior to this, meditation could be done while standing up, but that wasn't shown in the november 29th stream. Can you still meditate standing up? Does it generate sit aggro? No-one knows. That is causing anxiety to people that had to endure these mechanics in EQ1 for the past ~20 years. Until mounts came along, and they finally got a reprieve in outdoor zones, at least. If standing meditation is still a thing, then I think some of the anxiety would be lessened.
Second, in EQ1, if auto attack, for a caster, is on, that is, if they're actively trying to engage in combat? Mana regen is set to zero. Not just lower than if you're sitting, it's zero. You can go and verify that right now if you don't believe it. Zero. So, if that type of design and implementation is going to make it's way into Pantheon, I think casters have a good reason to be concerned. That one mechanic overshadows all others, when it comes to mana regen. It boils down to, if you're not sitting on your butt, you're not doing the absolute best you can to regenerate mana so that if we need you to cast a spell, you can cast it.
Now, if things like Verdanfire Seed turn out to generate MORE mana than sitting in combat? Well that would be fantastic. Yet, for the same class, wildfire breaks mezzes, and for an AoE heal, that is a very strange feature. If you are AoE healing, it seems likely more than one person has been hurt, which is more likely when there are multiple mobs, which would lead to crowd control. So, on one hand, you have a mechanic which sounds awesome, but there's very few situations where it actually makes sense that you would use it, unless you want to make the crowd control classes/roles very very angry. Why am I pointing this out? Because it's an illogical design and implementation, again. If wildfire didn't break mezzes, there would be no discussion about how it's illogical. If meditating in combat didn't generate threat aggro like it does in EQ1, there would be less outcry.
Giving each combat resource (like mana) class the ability to recover or generate that resource in or out of combat isn't difficult. Many of the classes in Pantheon have been designed and implemented, so far, to do that in unique, fun, challenging, and innovative ways.
Except WIS & INT casters. For those, from the november 29th videos, you get to sit on your butt. Well, that's just not fun, challenging, or innovative. Yet, the other classes get fun, challenging, and innovative. Is that class envy? Yes it is. It's also justified class envy. Sometimes, one mechanic or implementation is clearly superior, and in this case, at this time, that's true.Now, if Visionary Realms plans to have combat or role base mana regen, for every class, including WIS & INT casters, then they should be out in front of the concerned citizens placating them. Instead of being silent. That's what community managers do, right? They handle. They spin. Well, where's the handling? Where's the spin? Has meditate been adjusted so you can't do it standing, any more, in combat? If yes, tell us. If no, tell us.
That's what's more disconcerting. If the plan isn't to fix this, then what's happened so far is normal. When devs don't want to give bad news, they stay silent. Just like they have so far.
If there has always been a plan to address this issue, then they should share it. Making one public statement of "It is a launch day goal to provide all mana consuming classes the ability to regenerate mana in-combat, and those abilities will all be superior to meditating in combat" then who cares? Then the community would be brainstorming and theorycrafting how that goal could be or will be achieved, instead of the toxic infighting and backbiting we see here and on social media.It doesn't take much to herd the cats, but it does take some effort.
Hi vjek. I'd like to respond to a few of your points. Not to argue. But perhaps to give you a different perspective.
When I played EQ I as a healer I had to learn when and where to sit. I realized that as a healer not only was it dangerous to meditate but there was a small learning curve regarding the act of meditation. Other players were kind enough to alert me to it in Highpass when my Shaman was a wee pup. There seemed to be two things to remember regarding meditation; one was never to sit and meditate too close to combat or angry mobs. The second was that by taking a moment to pause before sitting to med, I would give the tank and DPS a bit of time to increase their hate and lower my own making it safer for me to med. In most, non-raid situations this worked out very well for me. Most of the time, even in closed quarters, I would not pull aggro. But I needed to be aware of a few things to do it safely; distance to mobs and timing the med period appropriately. That became minimally engaging (though engaging nonetheless), else I would draw the ire of mobs.
I don't think the old way of mediation is particularly cool or fascinating or even extraordinarily engaging. It made sense though; someone who places themselves into the most vulnerable and unthreatening of positions makes for an easy target. Especially if it was the target that was keeping the rest of the group alive. It was also the standard to efficiently chain pull mobs. I don't think it had to be done that way; casters could blow through their mana in every engagement and force all group members to sit around twittling their thumbs until the pool was restored and new pull could be engaged. It was the old way to do things in that era of gaming and particularly in EQ. I do hope it will be improved upon in Pantheon however. I also think it should remain a viable method to regen mana.
If I were to change the animation for meditation, or allow for casters to stand to meditate, I would still expect mobs to notice this and attack accordingly. Meditation should be highly threat inducing to mobs.
I also think that regen should occur in combat. If a caster is not actively casting they should be regening even a small amount of resource. But this should not negate judicious and thoughtful resource management altogether.
In regard to Wildfire, I think this is a spell that is expected to be used in specific situations. Burning down trash in AoE comes to mind first. I would not consider this spell to be one of my bread and butter heals. I also expect of myself to understand it's range and limits so if I did use it while we had mobs mezzed I could cast it without the radius of effect interrupting the mez effect. Again, useful in some, certainly not in all cases. I like this, because it forces me to choose wisely and effectively. I would rather this than a game where it never mattered what spell I cast whenever I cast it.
Anyway, vjek, just a few things to offer a different PoV. I hope you don't take offense.
Eamil said:Please stop assuming everyone who wants something different from EQ's implementation of medding/downtime automatically wants it to be just like WoW. As I said on the last page:
Hi Eamil. I never assumed that at all. I don't think anyone here is suggesting anything close to WoW.
From what I see so far it's a discussion based on the concept of 'sitting' whilst being in combat, a possible animation change, and suggestions of making meditation more interactive but still require downtime.
I am, and continue to be, happy with the EQ approach. Yes it sucked in a lot of ways, but it provided (what I felt) a good resource management approach. Was the rate of regen too slow? Yes, and the dev's agree on this. But I feel a caster/healer resting when not casting makes sense. Some people being near combat are more of a liability than value.
The compromise I saw and liked best is simply requiring a minimum distance from an NPC in combat before meditation can occur. This requires more planning/challenge as far as clearing an area, makes the caster a bit more vulnerable (being separated from the melee), and makes more logical sense. However this is a big downside for cramped quarters, which might be offset somehow.
One approach that was also pretty good is to pre-plan your meditation so that if you end it early, you don't receive the full benefit.
Whatever happens, I'd prefer minimal (if any) changes from what I've seen. I think actual gameplay will feel much different than watching the stream, and geared/experienced players will manage much better than we saw.
Orangemilk said:I think actual gameplay will feel much different than watching the stream, and geared/experienced players will manage much better than we saw.
I really think this is the jist of my point. Watching experienced players in the scenario would look polished, planned, and the whole of the encounter would be smoother because the players would necessarily have a much more nuanced understanding of not just their own character mechanics but that of their group members too.
I remember watching the ticks on my mana bar as I med so that I could get up and throw off a heal just that much sooner. Granted, not all excursions required this level of awareness but there were so many times where seconds really mattered between wiping and not. The perfectly placed taunt, or root, or heal, or mez. It was those times that were the funnest and most exciting. By far!
OakKnower said: ... Anyway, vjek, just a few things to offer a different PoV. I hope you don't take offense.
No offense taken, I've played a druid, & wizard all to max level in EQ1 TLP, so I totally get the game-within-the-game of sit aggro/threat, meditation, all of that.
I just think VR can do better, and hope they will continue to expand on these other methods, and communicate their design goals. Personally, I'm overjoyed they are going with percentage based out of combat mana regen. It's a complete game changer in terms of pace. On EQReborn, you can see the effect first hand, as they use it there. It's quite remarkable how much it improves the game, overall, in my opinion.
There are two aspects of the current meditation system that I have issues with, and it's worth separating them because the discussion can get murky.
For point number one, I think the simplest change that can be made is just removing the ability to actually sit down in combat. Replace that animation with one where the casters are standing and meditating in a way that's not too silly (head lowered, fists closed, radiating the soft blue glow like they currently do while sitting or something similar). This, by itself, would be a massive improvement for sake of immersion. Outside of EQ, I have not once encountered any media related to combat where participants just sit down to "rest." After combat, sure, but during combat? No.
For point number two, we only have to look towards EQ to see the prevalence of this issue. For the sake of argument, we'll assume that a healer has 6 given abilities: 2 heals, 2 utility, 2 dps. With any implementation of medding that is similar to its current form (EQ clone), healers in maximally efficient groups will trend towards the usage of only their two heal spells and maybe one utility spell (but only for situations that absolutely require the healer to cast their utility spell) and to completely ignore their dps spells. The reason for this is that given dps and utility can be more efficiently and readily provided by other classes, and given that a caster has a limited mana pool that is used for all spells, it becomes necessary for casters in maximally efficient groups to only cast spells when absolutely required (typically only their healing spells). The reason for this trend is because it reduces downtime to an absolute minimum, higher group dps is achieved by ignoring personal dps/utility skills and instead spending the mana on heals. The result is often that healers especially become the de facto multi-box class since playstyle is reduced to: cast Heal 1, cast Heal 2, sit down and repeat.
A more engaging system of medding/mana regeneration can help mitigate the simplistic playstyle (and thus multi-boxing) issue by forcing the player to interact with their abilities to regain mana instead of sitting down and doing nothing. Now, if the devs want players to actually use their utility and dps spells as casters (healers in particular), they need to be incentivized to in a clear way, or else those abilities will be ignored.
Riqq said:That or they like it how it is, personally there is a larger benefit than just getting mana back from the whole meditation thing, and people are twisting meditation into something thats not meditation at all and for no real concrete reason other than "give us something differnt"...well what exactly do you want it to be? do you have a concrete idea? have you considered the resources it would take to put such a system into effect?, its easy to be on the outside looking in trying to direct things, its like the work field, your boss tells you what to do, but really has no idea what it takes to do what he wants you to do, a little consideration goes a long way. Dont tell them what to do....show them, otherwise leave it
You do realize I've been pointing specifically to another game's implementation that perfectly fits VR's stated design intent while specifically excluding medding in combat, right? Like, you're perfectly exemplifying the attitude I've been talking about here - you're not paying attention to the substance of what people are saying, you're just mad that people might want something even a little bit different than EQ medding.
Orangemilk said:Hi Eamil. I never assumed that at all. I don't think anyone here is suggesting anything close to WoW.
From what I see so far it's a discussion based on the concept of 'sitting' whilst being in combat, a possible animation change, and suggestions of making meditation more interactive but still require downtime.
I am, and continue to be, happy with the EQ approach. Yes it sucked in a lot of ways, but it provided (what I felt) a good resource management approach. Was the rate of regen too slow? Yes, and the dev's agree on this. But I feel a caster/healer resting when not casting makes sense. Some people being near combat are more of a liability than value.
The compromise I saw and liked best is simply requiring a minimum distance from an NPC in combat before meditation can occur. This requires more planning/challenge as far as clearing an area, makes the caster a bit more vulnerable (being separated from the melee), and makes more logical sense. However this is a big downside for cramped quarters, which might be offset somehow.
One approach that was also pretty good is to pre-plan your meditation so that if you end it early, you don't receive the full benefit.
Whatever happens, I'd prefer minimal (if any) changes from what I've seen. I think actual gameplay will feel much different than watching the stream, and geared/experienced players will manage much better than we saw.
I hope so. Like I said earlier, the people defending medding as-is seem to be split between "they're playing poorly due to inexperience and you'll really only have to med every few pulls" and "medding in combat every pull is normal and desirable." The former I'm okay with, the latter I don't think is fun.
If I were to change medding, I'd make it function more similarly to /heal in FFXI:
-Restoration ticks only begin after 20 seconds, and start small but increase with each tick (medding in combat is technically possible but impractical)
-Restores both health and mana (melee benefit from a rest)
-If it doesn't currently, make medding generate at least a small amount of aggro. If you don't choose the location wisely, you might draw enemies from nearby.
That's not to say I won't be satisfied unless they do it exactly that way. It's just that the stated purpose of medding is to create enough downtime for people to relax and socialize a bit between pulls, and I feel medding in combat (when everyone without mana will still be active) defeats that purpose.
My 2 sense:
All throughout human history meditation has been used for inner thought and self-development. Using it in combat is nothing new. Many martial arts have special movements to help direct deflect an attack.
Priests pray for guidance and monks have special forms such as qigong or taichi. There are also several forms of sitting meditation such as transcendental (deeeeeep deep meditation) or guided meditation. Its reasonable to see it as a combat tactic.
Here are my thoughts about game mechanics that would involve meditation.
Transcendental meditation: A deep state of meditation that in which you don't have a clear understanding of your surroundings. Your able to "feel" where others are around you if they are moving or attacking. This would give you the greatest return on mana but at a cost of knowing where people are and being vulnerable to attack.
Guided meditation: a form of meditation that would help others in your group who are also mending gain more from meditating. Only useful out of combat.
Standard meditation: The system as it stands today
Praying: Only available to clerics and paladins. Similar to transcendental meditation but kneeling instead of sitting. Giving a greater understanding of your surrounding then transcendental with similar benefits because of your devotion to your god. This would also draw a little less agro and also give you a better chance of not having a 100% chance to get hit and a small chance of being able to mitigate some damage.
Standing meditation: This would give you the full understanding of your surrounding, not draw agro or have a higher chance of getting hit or taking max damage.
Qugong or some open eyes animated meditation: A very advanced practice that's very powerful at inner cultivating of energy as long the form can be completed without interruption. In other words. You would start a form and have a standard gain of mana similar to regular meditation but at the end of the form, you would get a burst on mana.
Chanting: A form of meditation for the shaman. This would return mana as well as give your party a buff of some sort while you are chanting.
Druid circle: a circle that a druid could set up. Preparation would be necessary beforehand, making a circle on the ground that as long as the druid stays within the circle meditation occurs.
Dancing: Similar to the way the native Indian do a rain dance or the native Hawaiians do their Hula dance (This is a spiritual practice for everyone that's not aware of that.) This could also be a form of meditation.
Sicario said:There are two aspects of the current meditation system that I have issues with, and it's worth separating them because the discussion can get murky.
- The concept of sitting down during life or death combat is, in itself, silly
- The current implementation of medding will result in an ultra-simplistic playstyle for casters (healers especially) that will encourage multi-boxing
Ill provide a few historical instances of meditation during war or combat or to change the world as a whole. Meditation is definitely used by some of the greatest warriors in history. Some forms of martial arts are even meditations at their core such as Taichi.
https://taskandpurpose.com/hardcore-warriors-history-practiced-meditation
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-04/muom-cgm031316.php
Meditating can be looked at as weaving time-space with your intent. Just as a wizard weaves spell power. During meditation, he is weaving time-space around himself to draw greater power. Similar to a priest Praying to their god to draw greater power.
I see your points though, I just feel that they could use a bit more understanding to really see why meditating would be a sensical thing during combat, especially in a fantasy world.
I'd also like to mention that the Cleric should be doing much more than you mentioned above. Healing of course, but they also can stun to help enchanter get their mez off without being interrupted. They can pacify wandering mobs so they don't notice you when they walk into a room. They can cure you of some debuffs. Just to name a few.
Eamil said:You do realize I've been pointing specifically to another game's implementation that perfectly fits VR's stated design intent while specifically excluding medding in combat, right? Like, you're perfectly exemplifying the attitude I've been talking about here - you're not paying attention to the substance of what people are saying, you're just mad that people might want something even a little bit different than EQ medding.
Unfortunately, this is status quo. There are several popular topics that I have experienced the exact same thing with over the years. It's a common scenario where people passionately argue about how meaningful a given "effect" would be to them, but then refuse to consider anything and everything that can "cause" that effect if it wasn't something that originated in EQ. I have seen this countless times. As a former FFXI player myself, who has never played EQ, it's quite frustrating. There are a decent amount of pain points (stemming from EQ) that I have seen mentioned in various design goals that were actually considered strengths of FFXI.
If you try to discuss how to turn a perceived weakness into a game defining strength (using experience or history as a precedent), people will complain how it's "artificial, arbitrary, and contrived." Some people don't want change, and they will be the first to remind you how they are the core audience for this game. You're just a young and inexperienced outsider who could never comprehend the intricacies of what Pantheon is meant to be with your tiny little peon brain. You should probably go play WoW or one of the million other MMO's out there that are designed for people like you. This game is for us. It's not going to be an instant gratification hand-holding experience, don't you get it?
All joking aside ... feel free to hit me up in Discord sometime. 1AD7#7153 -- I would love to chat with you.
macgregoroi said:Ill provide a few historical instances of meditation during war or combat or to change the world as a whole. Meditation is definitely used by some of the greatest warriors in history. Some forms of martial arts are even meditations at their core such as Taichi.
I appreciate the effort, but your links are somewhat disingenuous in attempting to counter the point I'm making. Of course meditation is a wonderful thing, I practice it myself. Of course warriors throughout history have used meditation to their advantage. What people constantly misconstrue here is that no one would actually be sitting on the floor in combat meditating with enemies only a few feet away. Meditating while sitting outside of combat? Makes perfect sense. Meditating while sitting in combat? Please... no. It would never happen. The thing people don't get is that the skills meditation provide are practicable in situations that require them without having to sit in the iconic poses. Meditation can be done anywhere.... sitting, standing, lying down, moving, and yes... even fighting. Sitting ≠ meditating, these are separate things. And this is the point I'm making... at the very least, the act of being able to sit down during combat to meditate should be removed completely. It's ridiculous.
Sicario said:What people constantly misconstrue here is that no one would actually be sitting on the floor in combat meditating with enemies only a few feet away.
Vision was sitting in Avengers Infinity Wars during the last battle while Captain America was fighting right next to him. And once Vision was rested enough helped Captain America out.
With that said, I do think it would be much better if a meditate animation was created instead of just sitting there. What I do not want to see is for people to leave a fight they heavily participated in with more mana then they started.
Sicario said:Meditation can be done anywhere.... sitting, standing, lying down, moving, and yes... even fighting. Sitting ≠ meditating, these are separate things. And this is the point I'm making... at the very least, the act of being able to sit down during combat to meditate should be removed completely. It's ridiculous.
Check out the post I did right before the one in which I responded to your post. That one gave several alternatives that I think would be fun. Meditation the way it is now to me seems like a low-level thing. As your character levels up I would like to see other alternatives, not just only mounts. If it the Devs do keep it the way it is that's totally fine too because there are so many other things in a game like this that are "not realistic". For instance, monsters just standing about with no reason or purpose, or you invade a camp of monsters but just because your 30 feet away (outside their agro range) they don't attack you. A real camp of monsters would just all rally and attack together...
;)
First off I am not fluent in the art of Meditation, I do remember many of healers and casters sitting around smoking something while us meleers are up close and personal fighting with some nasty evil creature trying to tear us limb to limb. BTW, thank you for your timely heal, shield or powerful dps burn!
Yes if a Cleric type could pray, hands clapsed together with a white column of light reaching to the heavens to the divine, for the blessing of mana replenishment.
Perhaps,
A Wizard could open his/her leatherbound book of spells and whisper a mana manipulation spell yielding a regeneration of this oh so powerful reservoir.
Maybe,
A Shaman could be seen tearing the flesh from oneself offering it in a ritualistic sacrifice for mana.
Somewhere,
A Druid feet sprout roots growing deep into the earth feeding straight from nature filling the mana well once again.
I could go on, but many have before me and lengthy text is not one with me.
I'm sure something like these animations can be done... less not forget our staves, hammers, swords....maybe with a well placed "Heavy Attack" we could all gain some mana back, who knows, only time will tell.
Good luck on your quest for manananabobama...
Soaren
Humble Ranger
Just give casters the DBZ 'powering up' animation, and this whole thread can go away - as it stands now, well over 9000!
Riply said:Guess im the weird one who doesnt find it odd that you should have to sit to rest/meditate.....I mean if you look around the world at people who meditate for relaxation or to reach a level of subconsciousness, they are almost always sitting, the point is to relax. Something like the following makes sense as an alternative to normal sitting, if thats whats really desired.
As someone who played a Wizard during the day of having to stare at the spell book during meditation, I would have to say ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! That was one thing that really should be left in the past.
From a game play standpoint, I thought the early EQ design was well done with the spell book. It had a practical purpose in game play balance and design. You aren't simply reading the daily news, you are focusing with great concentration to commit magic to your mind. The spell book blocking out all view provided this element of game play which took away your awareness and made meditation much more risky. That is, you were too focused on your study to be aware of your surroundings. This also provided opportunities for various spells and abilities to aid in this obstacle (animal/nature forms, invis, illusions, warning spells, etc...). This also added to the fear in play. You are in a dangerous place, you are low on mana and need to meditate, but doing so makes you vulnerable and so it became very risky on where you chose to hunt and it made having group members much more valuable as they would alert you to any dangers that happens to come about.
I think it is a mistake to think games should be fun all the time, that they should keep us entertained at every stage. I think some of the best experiences in games were not the ones that attended to such, but the ones that had numerous obstacles, annoyances, and frustrations that made victory in the game all the more satisfying.
