I've always invisioned some type of doorway at the end of a game, where If I decided to walk through it would do as you described with the Progeny System or some other option as an alternate world to the one I was in. Things are not as they were but off/slightly different, new game play rules and things don't work like they did.
Kilsin said:Think of it as dying peacefully of old age (max level) and restarting fresh as your own son or daughter, keeping a few perks/benefits that your father/mother excelled in (AA points, journeyman crafter, combat passives etc.) if you choose to start as a different class altogether then you may lose some class specific perks that you max level main had for example but it may not matter if you have other benefits to help, there will be decisions to be made ;)
If the the benfits compound then I would.
Honestly not enough information for me to be able to answer fully.
The one thing I can say is that I likely would if no Bard at launch. So I start with say Rogue, depending on what perks etc carry over I might retire her to get and start as her daughter the Bard. Because Ill only have one main whatever class that is. I just hope we have surnames, so that I could name my child with the same last name.
I think this is a bad idea.
For example, say I have a Mage and he is max level and I want to start a Chanter. Normally I would keep my Mage and roll a new Chanter and level him up. Why not just roll a new level 1 character?
If its because I get bonus abilities and maybe some heirloom gear then that level 1 character would be overpowered anyway.
Finally, I am way too emotionally attached to my character to kill him off and I would never use this system.
I don't see myself doing that with a character that I didn't level FOR the purpose. I generally don't decide "Eh, I'm bored and will never play this guy again.."
More likely I (and others) would blast through the levels as fast as possible to reach max and sacrifice that throw away to make the progeny. Powerlevelling will become the norm.
Other problems I can potentially see are:
- Guilds requiring you to have a progeny'd character in order to raid or be main crafter - they want every edge they can get.
- The benefit being great enough that, eventually, the game is balanced around having a progeny character, if the benefit is not there the uptake won't be there. Devs can say it won't happen, but if the content is too trivial what's the choice? If the benefit isn't great enough than why sacrifice a character?
I would be more interested in hearing what they plan to do to avoid these situations.
I like a progeny system if done interesting enough it can populate low lvl zones anew. Been playing Dungeon and Dragons Online and they have it just about right.
If grouping will be the best way to lvl ppls will group even if they own "twink gear". I did always enjoy playing low lvl zones again on a stronger char it was fun for me.
I just dont want to sacrifice my 1st char that reached max lvl there should be something like a child which is stronger system. While i keep my old char if i want to. (Account slots)
I think this was a smart idea, to add in special death system like this. Even though it maybe a hard decision when it comes to it. In the end if your in a group, guild it could be benifical to not have to keep recruiting numbers if you cant simply find them. Sometimes a fresh start with the needed class might be important.
Was the orginal idea based on this?
I might end up doing this, but not right away or never retire the good old character i once had.
Why? we attach ourselves so much to them. We associate ourselfs to the hours spent. I see this all the time in FPS games with a MMO player changing games... usually shows when they die. Or a pure PVE player. The attachment level is there.
I not lie to you.
This idea does not appeal to me at all. I am the type that normally levels very slowly. Plus I tend to spend a lot of time doing crafting and maybe even working on raising different factions. By the time I would get a character to max level, I would have spent so much time and devotion to the overall development of my character, there is no way in hell I would kill it off, so that I can start completely over with a level 1 character, even if that level 1 did have some extra bonus.
Plus, even if I have a maxed out toon and have done all the content that’s available, what if I kill it off to start over and then shortly after an expansion or update comes out with new high level content? Now I can't do it because I killed off my high level toon.
Also, I don’t think its been clarified on what exactly the progeny bonuses would be, and will those bonuses be noticeable when that progeny has been maxed out? In other words, by the time my progeny toon has been maxed, will it always be better that the toon I killed off? Or would they both eventually be evened out at the end?
Either way it doesn’t matter to me. I would much rather keep my character and just create a new alt.
This is a very very tough call. I wouldn't want to work so hard over the course of months and months on my main character only to not be able to play it again in the future. I mean the perks would have to be fairly substantial for me to essentially 'throw away' a character that I had been progressing on for so long. What if a new expansion comes out with new high end content? Well, looks like Im out of luck until I get this new guy level and geared again because I just threw away my high level character. What about from a raiding perspective? You wont be able to participate until you level another toon up, gear him up all over again, and then you can join?
I guess I would really need to understand the system and what the benefit of doing so is.
I think what perhaps makes the most sense, is to allow us to continue playing our older characters, rather than retireing them, but still have progeny that we could pass certain things down to. Also, I think it would actually be cool if we could pass down some class specific things to a progeny of different class (perhaps a spell or fighting manuever, etc.).
I just wouldnt want to spend so much time progressing a character, doing EPIC quests, farming rare rare gear, doing raids, etc. Only to throw it all away for a new character and never be able to play him again....
You both are completely correct, and valid responces. It will be very hard for a MMO player to retire existing mains. It is for the very strong at heart. (if the system proves important to you)
In the case of restarting a new main, it is much easier. You might be able to transfer tradeskill items, items, skills to a new alt more then you could get from a brand new toon.
How much of the orginal main gets transfered to the new son, daughter? thats the question.
Based on the current information, I'm not a fan of the system. And, based on how it's being advertised, I don't forsee that changing.
The majority that play alts that I know (myself included) like to play alts for the alternate playstyle as much as being a max level character with little to do. If I had to retire my character, I basically would be forced to play a linear path again and would not have that alternate playstyle. I play alts often as they provide the option to choose to play my main or alternate character. If I had to retire my character (or the character died), it would not make me more likely to group with true newbies, but, as rather Spyderoptik stated, I'd most likely have a fairly close circle of friends by max level that I would reroll with, or group with their alts. Best case scenario, there would be the random 1-2 invited if a need in a group was missing.
I would much prefer alternate advancement opportunities at max level (EQ Style) or throughout progression that would bring me back to the old zones to repopulate them versus having a system to replay content. I wouldn't consider retiring my main, and rerolling for benefits and replaying content, or trying out low level content I may have missed enough justification to basically replay content unless the progeny benefits were meaningful gains and you were basically "forced" to. And, if that were the case when you're talking about an MMO that I hope survives for 15+ years like Everquest, I think the negatives far outweigh the positive. If the gains were meaningful, you fall back into Sydperoptik's point that the min/maxer's will continually reroll/faceroll content and monopolize camps with "progeny twinks." You would have people power leveling progenies and continually rerolling to compound benefits.
New Game+ works in single player games as they typically have a finite amount of content, or at best, some DLC with a couple minor expansions. So, typically with increased challenge levels that are offered with New Game+, etc., it gives some repability to a $50 game while challenging the player. But, when an MMORPG already has built in replayability, I understand and can appreciate the attempt to be innovative, but this is a system that I think change for change's sake can be detrimental.
Kilsin said:If given the chance to let your max level character die and restart as your level 1 son or daughter, would you do it? :)
Progeny is the 3rd point from the bottom: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
I'm wary of it. It's something I would have done when I was 19 and playing 12 hours a day. There was time between vanilla raiding and the kunark release to spin up an alt or even restart, but only if you were playing a ton. I don't think I'll be too keen on losing my max level character this time around.
Raidan said:
If the gains were meaningful, you fall back into Sydperoptik's point that the min/maxer's will continually reroll/faceroll content and monopolize camps with "progeny twinks." You would have people power leveling progenies and continually rerolling to compound benefits.
This. How do you make such a drastic negative be a net positive? If the benefits are that good, what you guys described could get ugly and fast. If they aren't good enough to make people do it, then why have it? Either way, on the surface, it's a bad idea.
Got your haste item and pocket druid? Alright, let's faceroll!
I agree, not enough information to make a solid judgement.
I am also one where if I roll an alt, I still want to switch between the two characters and not give up my time invested... It would have to be a VERY solid reason to give up a character you have build to max level.
Guess I will wait to comment further until I know more.
I think it's a very neat and original idea. That being said, I couldn't sacrifice my first character that I experienced all these adventures and magnificent things with. It would be too sad, even to live on through my characters children. I do like the idea though, I really do. It's original.
Since not enough information exists I will propose what I would like to see happen.
If I go by the info so far, than I would not do this.
Since my character can have children, then they should still be able to produce offspring without my main retiring or dieing.
So, if it were in two steps, for example:
1. I can have a progeny with basic perks or "lessons learned" from the parent, and perhaps one or two items thay I would like them to start with. I can still play my main without penalty.
2. If I choose to retire the progeny gets more equipment since my main isn't using it anymore, and can have further lessoned taught by the parent (if retired) or a will/death certificate could produce benefits if death occured to parent.
If these two were the case, then perhaps. It still has to be worth it.
I would be too invested to really think I would do this.
I am not a fan of it , i perfer sticking to a main. I know if i like it by the time i hit level 20 , plus tend to become attached so dislike remaking my character .
Dont mind if others do it so long as it does not make them better then my main which ive played and mastered :) .
Hopefully its to use items/spells from main . but not to make the class better then a person who leveled to max and chooses to keep the main class .
Canno said:I don't see myself doing that with a character that I didn't level FOR the purpose. I generally don't decide "Eh, I'm bored and will never play this guy again.."
More likely I (and others) would blast through the levels as fast as possible to reach max and sacrifice that throw away to make the progeny. Powerlevelling will become the norm.
Other problems I can potentially see are:
- Guilds requiring you to have a progeny'd character in order to raid or be main crafter - they want every edge they can get.
- The benefit being great enough that, eventually, the game is balanced around having a progeny character, if the benefit is not there the uptake won't be there. Devs can say it won't happen, but if the content is too trivial what's the choice? If the benefit isn't great enough than why sacrifice a character?
I would be more interested in hearing what they plan to do to avoid these situations.
This about sums up the facts and describes my current opinion. Progeny system, currently NO.
I would not know how to do this. I would want to continue with my main, but then if I had a progeny I would feel obligated to do stuff with her/him. Then I would have to chosoe between my normal friends that i spent a good 20 or 30 levels or so finding, let alone a guild in 30-40, and spending timewith the progeny.
Maybe only one per account?
I have my misgivings about this too. I see that you want to give alts a boost for someone who's hit level cap, and I'm all for this, buuuuttt.. I agree with all the arguments here - there just isn't enough information to make it seem like a viable choice. I'm definitely an alt-aholic, but I don't know if I'd choose to give up my main or another high level character. My argument on the facebook post was that why would you give up your main when there will eventually be more content and level cap increases. Kilsin had a great reply about horizontal progression, but either way - it's more stuff for your main to do and you're giving that up if you retire a main. The only reason I could see doing this is if I had a character at level cap and I never wanted to play them again, or if I choose skills or a skill path that just didn't work for me and there was no way to change it.
Kilsin did say on the facebook thread that some part knowledge and skills would be passed along, like with crafting and stuff. That would be great. If crafting is hard I don't think I would give up all the effort put into it to retire a high level for a low level progeny. I would just roll an alt. Heck, that's half the reason I would have multiple high level characters, is for crafting! I definetly would also not choose to do it, if flags or keys didn't get passed along. I'm less worried about gear, but still, there should be a way to pass that along also, or at the very least make it an item you can put in your house and keep forever.
I'm glad it will be a choice, but I value all the time and effort I put into a character and I don't think I could bring myself to "retire" one. I still have my very first character made in EQ. In lotro, I have certain potions that were out at release but quickly got changed (nerfed), taking up inventory space. I'm too sentimental :)
I think it would be an ok system if things like crafting lvl, knowledge of the world, if there is cartography have that handed down, maybe a low level set of gear, maybe a 25% exp buff and the coins from the parent.
If skill points pass down, don't let them go above cap, so if skill point cap is 200 in say INT and my lvl 50 necro with 200 int dies to be reborn, please don't let their child start with 200 int, or have it so when they grow up they get bonus int of 225 cap or something.
I grow really attached to my characters in a game like this that takes time to level in, I role play as a specific sex / race / name for each class and I don't want to be forced to have to delete one to make a stronger child version of them.
So having it in there as a fun option for those who want it is cool but please don't make it have any benefits over those who choose to devote themselves to their main.
I will be spending 90% of my time playing a Cleric and I don't want to be forced to roll a Cleric to 50 then delete it and be reborn just so I can have even a 1% edge in stats.
To put it in perspective I had max level of every class on WoW (when 80 was the max) I can't even remember more than a couple of the characters names or appearances.
On EQ I have just about 1 of every class all ranging from max level to some in their 20s, I remember every single one of their names and how they look.
I can't even imagine deleting one of my EQ characters because of the time put in and the personal story surrounding each one of them.
I don't think anyone would be forced into retiring his characters for a slightly better descendant.
I would say if your character means that much to you then by all means keep playing it.