Akilae said:MauvaisOeil said:Let the world be realistic to some extent, and let players find themselves a least resistance path (Shortcuts, shorter travels, roads that increase traveling speed) that will feel more like an accomplishment than offering them a least resistance path to begin with.
I know travel time is the topic of this thread but I'd like to point out that this exact same argument could be made for things like a hardcore death penalty (die once and you have to reroll) and other divisive features. Those who enjoy such a mechanic want everyone to have to reroll when they die depite a game lacking that mechanic not preventing you from rerolling every time you die. It's a desire to force your playstyle on everyone else so that you won't be put at a self-inflicted disadvantage.
In the end VR will do what they please with such mechanics. Pantheon will be the game they want it to be. Us arguing about these polarizing issues will achieve nothing and, clearly, nobody is going to convince anyone else to switch camps. This far into this thread it ought simply be locked to prevent further bickering and bruised feels.
I don't think anyone has argued travel in the form of an extreme as would perm death be in the argument of death penalties.
EppE said:Honestly this isn't a discussion, its people stating their opinions over and over. Nothing new has been added in a few pages.
I know. I think a lot of us know in the end. We are all throwing our preferences with arguments or pseudo arguments thinking we are right, or based of analysis, etc...
But that remains nothing more than subjective opinions and none of them can be said as best, and nothing in thoses discussions will shape anything in the game.
Windmills, you know...
Dorotea has a good point. There's a difference between clarifying your position on something in response to another person, and simply trying to speak over them by responding multiple times with the same statement. Likewise, there's a difference between asking someone questions to truly understand their perspective, and asking leading questions in an attempt to undermine their position.
All of us should be confident enough in our views that we should not feel the need to defend them continuously. All of us should also respect each other enough to accept that others will disagree with us, sometimes strongly, and that it doesn't represent some sort of conspiracy to subvert Pantheon's design when it happens.
The game and the community are stronger when many voices are heard, not just a few. If we disagree on things, then it falls to VR to listen to feedback from all sides and make an informed decision based on their vision and tenets for Pantheon. Not ours.
I hope that moving forward we see some new people contributing to this topic, rather than just the same old names making the same old arguments. I include myself in the latter category.
Tanix said:Akilae said:MauvaisOeil said:Let the world be realistic to some extent, and let players find themselves a least resistance path (Shortcuts, shorter travels, roads that increase traveling speed) that will feel more like an accomplishment than offering them a least resistance path to begin with.
I know travel time is the topic of this thread but I'd like to point out that this exact same argument could be made for things like a hardcore death penalty (die once and you have to reroll) and other divisive features. Those who enjoy such a mechanic want everyone to have to reroll when they die depite a game lacking that mechanic not preventing you from rerolling every time you die. It's a desire to force your playstyle on everyone else so that you won't be put at a self-inflicted disadvantage.
In the end VR will do what they please with such mechanics. Pantheon will be the game they want it to be. Us arguing about these polarizing issues will achieve nothing and, clearly, nobody is going to convince anyone else to switch camps. This far into this thread it ought simply be locked to prevent further bickering and bruised feels.
I don't think anyone has argued travel in the form of an extreme as would perm death be in the argument of death penalties.
You missed the point entirely. That point was that travel time is a polarizing topic that boils down to personal play style or preference and that nothing productive will come from continuing this discussion. Focusing on the single example I gave (in the interest of brevity) to illustrate the point is disingenuous at best.
MauvaisOeil said:EppE said:Honestly this isn't a discussion, its people stating their opinions over and over. Nothing new has been added in a few pages.
I know. I think a lot of us know in the end. We are all throwing our preferences with arguments or pseudo arguments thinking we are right, or based of analysis, etc...
But that remains nothing more than subjective opinions and none of them can be said as best, and nothing in thoses discussions will shape anything in the game.
Windmills, you know...
I think you both are correct on this one.
The sky isn't falling and I trust the Devs to do what's right.
Peace and out
I think the solution to travel time issues can be resolved with a change of mind-set. Yes, this will be hard to do.
Taken at its essence the complaint is time to get from "here" where I am based/ starting, to "there" where "there" is where the adventure begins.
If the issue is the need for a home base or "here" or a starting point from which you start from every day, then it is that need for a home base that needs to be changed.
If the attiude to what constitutes a home base is changed, then from where ever you are, you have 2 decisions to make. 1. the adventure of getting to "there" and 2. making "there" the new home base. "there" now becomes "here"
The attitude needs to be: I am "here" now. This is where I am based. If my friends are elsewhere, too bad as I am "here" and it is from "here" that I am adventuring forth. If my friends are also here, or we decided to travel to here, together- thats alot of game play and not alot of netflix slideshow watching because getting here was an adventure and not just a run through zones.
EQ has some good examples especially in Velious. If you were "based" in thurgadin, making the trek to Wakening lands was perilous as you needed to get through Kael, but once through kael you could "base" in skyshrine and from there be close to zones as far as western wastes. Each of these places, thurgadin and skishrine were about 2 or 3 zones away from anything else, with lots in those zones so crossing those for 20min was perilous but satisfactory when reaching the other end. It may take 20min to cross unhindered, but since all giants see invis, you would have to stop and deal with them. Thankfully there were some coldain encampments where you could camp out if needed.
By bases I mean places where you can bank, craft, sell to NPC merchants, etc. The faction based conveniences. Likewise, in getting to the new base, consideration for the needs to have faction first before being able ot bank and sell would create some sandboxxy rules you would invent in order to get (sandboxxy rule 1: no faction, therefo eI need to stock up on food, or find a friendly stranger Player character mage that may or may not also be there and what to do there or which NPC to talk to.
Manouk said:The attitude needs to be: I am "here" now. This is where I am based. If my friends are elsewhere, too bad as I am "here" and it is from "here" that I am adventuring forth.
This, exactly. Brad's blog about an outpost idea describes one way to encourage such a change in mindset. Getting to where you want to fight tonight should not take very long, but getting to the other end of the continent or world should take many hours.
Manouk is correct.
It isn't all that hard to play with friends if that is the number one priority- just move around with the friends. If one of you plays a lot when the others are not on either do it in the same place or have an "alt" for when you are not with the friends.
If playing with friends is not the number one priority - it isn't reasonable to expect the basic design parameters of the game to be changed so that on the spur of the moment you can get to a friend or vice versa almost instantly from anywhere in Terminus.
Bad enough (from a "large world" perspective) that certain classes will be able to teleport you or the friends around the world. The world would feel a *lot* larger without class teleportation abilities.
dorotea said:Manouk is correct.
It isn't all that hard to play with friends if that is the number one priority- just move around with the friends. If one of you plays a lot when the others are not on either do it in the same place or have an "alt" for when you are not with the friends.
If playing with friends is not the number one priority - it isn't reasonable to expect the basic design parameters of the game to be changed so that on the spur of the moment you can get to a friend or vice versa almost instantly from anywhere in Terminus.
Bad enough (from a "large world" perspective) that certain classes will be able to teleport you or the friends around the world. The world would feel a *lot* larger without class teleportation abilities.
Well it really comes down to PC population. This is a grouping game, and if there's not enough people to effectively group where you're at then you have to either move on or craft where you're at till enough people come on or a group has an opening.
To put what Manouk said another way (and yes, I too belive he is on the right path to how to help folks adjust to long distance game travel);
"Modern" MMO's seem to have conditioned players to always return to the citys (or at least local quest hub) often, and especially before logging out (to get that rested exp).
It will take retraining the mind to relize, I need to find a safe-ish corner where I am and log off here so I'll still be where I need to be when I return (thus avoiding unnessary travel). Only returning to civilization when nessary rather than after every other quest.
Leachim said:To put what Manouk said another way (and yes, I too belive he is on the right path to how to help folks adjust to long distance game travel);
"Modern" MMO's seem to have conditioned players to always return to the citys (or at least local quest hub) often, and especially before logging out (to get that rested exp).
It will take retraining the mind to relize, I need to find a safe-ish corner where I am and log off here so I'll still be where I need to be when I return (thus avoiding unnessary travel). Only returning to civilization when nessary rather than after every other quest.
While leveling in EQ I would return to town maybe once a week, as I got higher in level and needed to purchase spells less frequently it wouldn't be unheard of for me to not return for weeks. Food was often the only reason I returned. You logged out where you leveled, that was the standard practice in EQ. If I'm leveling in Velks I'm logging out in Great Divide. If I'm leveling in Sebilis I'm logging out in Trak. These were the "hot spots" everyone leveled so logging in and finding no one just didn't occur.
Once in awhile a group of friends or guildies would want to go off the beaten path and hit up some unpopular dungeons. That took a bit of time to get there but this would part of the adventure of going somewhere different. These places weren't popular because the mobs, loot, and exp weren't as bad. The only reason to go there was a quest or to have a different view.
EppE said:Leachim said:
While leveling in EQ I would return to town maybe once a week, as I got higher in level and needed to purchase spells less frequently it wouldn't be unheard of for me to not return for weeks. Food was often the only reason I returned. You logged out where you leveled, that was the standard practice in EQ. If I'm leveling in Velks I'm logging out in Great Divide. If I'm leveling in Sebilis I'm logging out in Trak. These were the "hot spots" everyone leveled so logging in and finding no one just didn't occur.
Once in awhile a group of friends or guildies would want to go off the beaten path and hit up some unpopular dungeons. That took a bit of time to get there but this would part of the adventure of going somewhere different. These places weren't popular because the mobs, loot, and exp weren't as bad. The only reason to go there was a quest or to have a different view.
So I take it mobs didn't drop much loot in EQ? I never played EQ but the other old MMOs I played either dropped items but mostly coin so you could stay out for longer.
BamBam said: Mobs did drop loot, but with limited bag space and weight limit that also affected by your coins sometimes you would leave the trash loot behind and only loot the most valuable items.
Well back then you couldn't tell the trash from the good stuff. Was the ring magical? Unknown, is that nice sword magical??? If you started throwing stuff away you never knew. Magic items had to be identified before you knew and even though there were scrolls everyone could use, most people didn't carry them because of capacity.
Any travel based idea should be rooted in fantasy lore. That sais on contrary to melle vs caster as in EQ, even that play field out by having group set up camps, camp be like bonefires in Darksoulds or larger camps by NPC. Bind affinty should nto be allowed up to the player, migotates alot of cheating as well.
DracoKalen said:Well back then you couldn't tell the trash from the good stuff. Was the ring magical? Unknown, is that nice sword magical??? If you started throwing stuff away you never knew. Magic items had to be identified before you knew and even though there were scrolls everyone could use, most people didn't carry them because of capacity.
I'd recommend hitting some videos on EQ up on youtube or something. There are some decent ones I've seen before that may give you a good idea of where a lot of the arguments from those of us that played it are coming from.
Some mobs dropped items, some dropped money, some dropped nothing. Items didn't need to be identified in EQ and most good items were well known... really anything with a +stat on it was good. They were very rare though. When you first started out you'd sell any trash you got but as you leveled up the amount of money you got from it wasn't worth heading back to town.
If the zones are laid out like current MMOs, WoW for example, then yes I could totally see portals, mounts, porters, whatever, to get around as being useful. WoW is designed in a very linear fashion in that as you leave a main city the farther away you get the higher level the mobs become, the mobs closest to the city never posed a risk or agro'd you. That wasn't the case in EQ. You had a mix of levels of mobs in many zones. In Oasis for instance, 2 zones from Freeport, you had low level mobs and high level mobs all being camped at the same time. This made the zone dangerous for everyone. Even if there weren't high level mobs in a zone, low levels mobs would attack you sometimes. You couldn't simply afk in a starting area because given enough time a KOS green mob 20 levels below you would kill you.
Time is a resource. It factors into the death penalty and I can not emphasize this enough. If you died in a dungeon you wouldn't just be doing a corpse recovery, it meant someone else was taking your camp. This altered how people played the game. Dying wasn't just grab our stuff after a few minutes of recovering, it meant often times your night was over. That meant that people tried harder to fight through situations that they may not have otherwise. You evac the zone, you're probably losing the camp. You wipe, your probably losing the camp.
You can't just retain a exp and corpse run death penatly and think your going to foster the same style of community that EQ had. It was the sum of the parts. Yes I don't want to spend two hours traveling to a dungeon, but I also don't want to be able to get to anywhere in the world in minutes.
EppE said:DracoKalen said:Well back then you couldn't tell the trash from the good stuff. Was the ring magical? Unknown, is that nice sword magical??? If you started throwing stuff away you never knew. Magic items had to be identified before you knew and even though there were scrolls everyone could use, most people didn't carry them because of capacity.
1) I'd recommend hitting some videos on EQ up on youtube or something. There are some decent ones I've seen before that may give you a good idea of where a lot of the arguments from those of us that played it are coming from.
2) Some mobs dropped items, some dropped money, some dropped nothing. Items didn't need to be identified in EQ and most good items were well known... really anything with a +stat on it was good. They were very rare though. When you first started out you'd sell any trash you got but as you leveled up the amount of money you got from it wasn't worth heading back to town.
If the zones are laid out like current MMOs, WoW for example, then yes I could totally see portals, mounts, porters, whatever, to get around as being useful. WoW is designed in a very linear fashion in that as you leave a main city the farther away you get the higher level the mobs become, the mobs closest to the city never posed a risk or agro'd you. That wasn't the case in EQ. You had a mix of levels of mobs in many zones. In Oasis for instance, 2 zones from Freeport, you had low level mobs and high level mobs all being camped at the same time. This made the zone dangerous for everyone. Even if there weren't high level mobs in a zone, low levels mobs would attack you sometimes. You couldn't simply afk in a starting area because given enough time a KOS green mob 20 levels below you would kill you.
Time is a resource. It factors into the death penalty and I can not emphasize this enough. If you died in a dungeon you wouldn't just be doing a corpse recovery, it meant someone else was taking your camp. This altered how people played the game. Dying wasn't just grab our stuff after a few minutes of recovering, it meant often times your night was over. That meant that people tried harder to fight through situations that they may not have otherwise. You evac the zone, you're probably losing the camp. You wipe, your probably losing the camp.
You can't just retain a exp and corpse run death penatly and think your going to foster the same style of community that EQ had. It was the sum of the parts. Yes I don't want to spend two hours traveling to a dungeon, but I also don't want to be able to get to anywhere in the world in minutes.
1) Good idea, should have thought of it myself. Is there a particular poster you recommend
2) So, a magic item you never seen before and you know what it is when it drops in your lap?
Talk about convenient.
DracoKalen said:1) Good idea, should have thought of it myself. Is there a particular poster you recommend
2) So, a magic item you never seen before and you know what it is when it drops in your lap?
Talk about convenient.
Give this a try. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqhvTlR1WSc
Magic items HAD to show the stats when they first dropped. Its not simply convenient its necessary. Groups were often made of random people and going back to a town to identify an item before deciding who got it wasn't practical.
I'm just wondering but what MMO's have you played? Based on your comments it seems like you primarly have MUD and table top experience.
EppE said:DracoKalen said:1) Good idea, should have thought of it myself. Is there a particular poster you recommend
2) So, a magic item you never seen before and you know what it is when it drops in your lap?
Talk about convenient.
Give this a try. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqhvTlR1WSc
Magic items HAD to show the stats when they first dropped. Its not simply convenient its necessary. Groups were often made of random people and going back to a town to identify an item before deciding who got it wasn't practical.
I'm just wondering but what MMO's have you played? Based on your comments it seems like you primarly have MUD and table top experience.
Video is wrong on some things. First person was the only view for a period of time (I think they added camera views around mid to late kunark maybe a tad earlier?). The original UI was replaced I think earler than Velious. They opened it up a bit I think also by Kunark, maybe even earlier. Also, they took away casters having to look at their spell book while medding around the same time as the camera views (a major imbalancer in my opinion as one of the counters to the power of a caster was the vulnerability of when you med).
That is the interesting thing about the youtube videos as there really isn't much information out there that is accurate about early EQ due to it being before the social media/youtube/facebook generation.
Tanix said:
Video is wrong on some things. First person was the only view for a period of time (I think they added camera views around mid to late kunark maybe a tad earlier?). The original UI was replaced I think earler than Velious. They opened it up a bit I think also by Kunark, maybe even earlier. Also, they took away casters having to look at their spell book while medding around the same time as the camera views (a major imbalancer in my opinion as one of the counters to the power of a caster was the vulnerability of when you med).
That is the interesting thing about the youtube videos as there really isn't much information out there that is accurate about early EQ due to it being before the social media/youtube/facebook generation.
I think around level 15 you didn't have to stare at the spell book anymore? I don't recall exactly. I think the original was replaced in Velious. Velious was released only like 6 months after Kunark so a lot of their features blur together. This gave a decent representation of what original EQ was like and addressed things such as items, stats, travel, dungeons, etc. The goal was to give Draco some baseline since he never played EQ.
EppE said:Tanix said:
Video is wrong on some things. First person was the only view for a period of time (I think they added camera views around mid to late kunark maybe a tad earlier?). The original UI was replaced I think earler than Velious. They opened it up a bit I think also by Kunark, maybe even earlier. Also, they took away casters having to look at their spell book while medding around the same time as the camera views (a major imbalancer in my opinion as one of the counters to the power of a caster was the vulnerability of when you med).
That is the interesting thing about the youtube videos as there really isn't much information out there that is accurate about early EQ due to it being before the social media/youtube/facebook generation.
I think around level 15 you didn't have to stare at the spell book anymore? I don't recall exactly. I think the original was replaced in Velious. Velious was released only like 6 months after Kunark so a lot of their features blur together. This gave a decent representation of what original EQ was like and addressed things such as items, stats, travel, dungeons, etc. The goal was to give Draco some baseline since he never played EQ.
Yeah, I don't remember it being locked to a level progression, rather it was something that was added as a base UI change (due to a lot of complaints). I know the original UI was changed a few times before the Velious UI change (minor modifications). Velious was near a year after Kunark (around 9 months or so) and I think kunark was about a year after the original release. I am trying to recall, but I think camera angles were added around kunark or so.
The video is fine, I just wanted to point out how originally EQ isn't fully represented of the time due to the technological limitations of the time to "record" game play, which is why you can only find screen shots here and there of the time (there are a few videos, but rare, I recorded some through an RCA adapter I had but I threw away the VHS tape over time, and it took up so much space on my HD at the time to that keeping it was not practical).
Tanix said:
Yeah, I don't remember it being locked to a level progression, rather it was something that was added as a base UI change (due to a lot of complaints). I know the original UI was changed a few times before the Velious UI change (minor modifications). Velious was near a year after Kunark (around 9 months or so) and I think kunark was about a year after the original release. I am trying to recall, but I think camera angles were added around kunark or so.
The video is fine, I just wanted to point out how originally EQ isn't fully represented of the time due to the technological limitations of the time to "record" game play, which is why you can only find screen shots here and there of the time (there are a few videos, but rare, I recorded some through an RCA adapter I had but I threw away the VHS tape over time, and it took up so much space on my HD at the time to that keeping it was not practical).
Yeah I wish I had all my screen shots from EQ atleast. Its a weird time in gaming history that just wasn't well documented. I've tried tracking down old guild mates too and its nearly impossible.
Something interesting, quite saddening, but interesting :
Concerning Kilsin's last question about Boats and how to spend our breakdown time, Facebook posters have been a few if not many to respond that they hope they won't have to wait 15min to play because :
-They no longer have the time for that (Not the right audience maybe ?)
-They prefer to play games where there is no waiting time (Not the right audience maybe .. again ? )
-They consider waiting in games is a chore and irrelevant to difficulty or content (Etc...)
All the negative answers mostly center on the same problem : Why do people keep beeing interested in a game they have no true interest in ? The first answer allways amaze me because people don't have time to play for as long as they used to, but instead of considering they are just unfit to the game, they consider the game should adapt for their current avaliability.
It's like saying "Pantheon is a game for veteran players of EQ that no longer have time to spend in a game.", which sounds really... self-centered.
I don't think a game should be designed about how you hope retired players will glance at your new franchise and maybe give it a few sessions in a month, but however about how other players could enjoy it as much as they did when they were younger.
Overall, I know this is slightly on the edge of the topic, but since it concers travel time throught boats and such, I found it relevant to add a note onto it :
VR is not designed Pantheon around the gamespan of a retired EQ player too busy to play for more than a few hours a week.
It's more accurate to say it's designed for the players we were when EQ was out. (I'll still have time, lucky me)
It’s not the size that counts it’s how you use it . . . wait no, it’s totally about the size, of the game world.
Walk speed, run speed, sprint speed, mount speed, magically enhanced speed, public transit speed and the value of instantaneous travel is all relative to the size of the game world.
Humans walk at 3 mph, sustained run at 6 mph and sprint for short distances up to 24mph if your name is Usain Bolt. Horses walk at 4.0mph, trot at 10mph, canter at 15mph, and gallop at 55mph for short distances. Oxen really only have a 3mph trudge and a 4 mph stampeed of death.
If the shortest path between Thronefast and Faerthale is only 3 miles then the world will be tiny and no movement increases are required. For reference Freeport to Qeynos was only about 4 miles and nearly half of that was Western Karana and Skyrim is only about 3x5 miles. If on the other hand Thronefast and Faerthale are actually 100 in game miles apart then even an infinite stamina galloping horse is going to talk a long time to get from one city to the next.
Total area is also very important to consider. If both cities are contained within a 5 mile by 5 mile square then the world will feel very small. Conversely a 100 mile by 100mile continent zone will be huge at 10,000 square miles and traveling to remote dungeons will be a trial in and of itself. All of a sudden even the most hardcore un-convenience minded player will look favorably on druid and wizard ports getting you within 5-10 miles of your desired location from one of the other locations.
Would love to hear what the actual in game world size is going to be. Once we know world size then travel time is just a function of distance and land speed.
If the zones are designed in such a way that there are natural trade routes between the major cities and most smaller settlements are on or near this trade route a form of public transit fast travel could get you from one settlement to another (possibly even when offline). Once in a settlement surrounded by appropriate area content you could group up with people also in the appropriate level range in the settlement and head out 10-25 minutes to get to a specific area and begin adventuring. Only when you really needed to go to the capital or move onto the next level range would you leave your base settlement as even on fast travel public transit it would eat up a significant amount of play time.
Another way to differentiate combat speed and overland travel could be to have the perception system really not work if you were moving under a certain velocity. If you fail to notice traps and ambushes while you are on a horse then you may stick to the safely guarded roads rather then running through open land at full speed, for that matter goffer holes are effectively natural traps for poor horses and a field could be covered with them. Additionally if you only spotted (had them become targetable) harvestable materials when moving at a walk speed or less then it would discourage people rushing around on fast mounts harvesting.
Basically mounts and fast travel tools are primarily to offset the time of moving from one adventure point to another in a large world so that a larger portion of a 2 hour play window is dedicated to activities rather than just going from point A to point B unless the task of getting from point A to point B is the intended adventure.