Tanix said:If they design the content anything like it was in EQ, zones won't be linear progressions where simply gaining level invalidates them. There will be content mixed at numerous levels making the zones a threat regardless of your level. This make the dangers and importance of travel significant regardless of ones level. A high level player should view travel as an obstacle as well. The point is not to invalidate important game mechanics simply because someone hits a level cap.
Even with mixed level mobs or surprises in zones, they will be rendered harmless or "invalid." Once you first learned of advanced threats in EQ it wasn't hard to avoid pretty much all of them, at worst they meant taking a slight detour around whatever area had higher level stuff until such a point you have outleveled even those threats.
At a certain point the only real "obstacle" travel (outside of the highest level areas) offers is tedium/a time sink, which isn't the worst thing but means to help mitigate that at higher levels (especially when moving through predominantly low-mid level areas) seems entirely reasonable.
Iksar said:Tanix said:If they design the content anything like it was in EQ, zones won't be linear progressions where simply gaining level invalidates them. There will be content mixed at numerous levels making the zones a threat regardless of your level. This make the dangers and importance of travel significant regardless of ones level. A high level player should view travel as an obstacle as well. The point is not to invalidate important game mechanics simply because someone hits a level cap.
Even with mixed level mobs or surprises in zones, they will be rendered harmless or "invalid." Once you first learned of advanced threats in EQ it wasn't hard to avoid pretty much all of them, at worst they meant taking a slight detour around whatever area had higher level stuff until such a point you have outleveled even those threats.
At a certain point the only real "obstacle" travel (outside of the highest level areas) offers is tedium/a time sink, which isn't the worst thing but means to help mitigate that at higher levels (especially when moving through predominantly low-mid level areas) seems entirely reasonable.
You only established my point. That is, because EQ was designed outside of normal concepts of "leashed" based systems, that is, because mobs would chase you to the zone, mobs populations were more sparse. So, naturally, because of this, allowing your example of players being able to have mounts, stack speed spells, etc.. it would allow a player to run through a zone (even a zone where content is equally available to them) without fear, there by greatly reducing the importantce of travel as an obstacle.
My point was not that players could "avoid" such as they could in EQ, it was more of an objection to your position that because a player has "leveled up", that they somehow deserved to speed pass content. My point is that content, if properly designed should be present in ALL zones at ALL levels, making the argument of "I did that, I no longer need to be bothered by that zone", an invalid argument to support a speed cheat to bypass it.
As I said, regardless of your level, distance, travel, etc... should ALWAYS be an obstacle, otherwise you end up with WoW where everyone is speeding through zones to their destiniations and all of the abilities, design constraints, and concepts of play are dismissed.
Travel is a KEY and INTREGAL element of play. Dismiss it and you kill off an very important aspect to which made people appreciate and praise games like EQ.
Well EQ has been superceded. The few games I played you're forced to dismount at the first attack, as a dragon it wasn't a surprise when I fell to the ground from some ground fire. For VR to design as you describe would ignore 20 years of advancement.
It's not a matter of "leveling up". It's a matter that you cleared that area as you were adventuring and discovering. Repop is realistic for the next group through so they can adventure through, it's not for someone whose already neutralized the threat already. Now if the zones scale, so you do it once and then the next time through the mobs are tougher that would be another discussion altogether. But redoing the same thing over and over is not "meanigful"
Travel is not an obstacle, there are obstacles as you travel. So the first time into a zone you would only ride your horse if you wanted to give the enemy the first attack or were just looking to be reckless. Would love to see bandits on the less traveled roads.
But key to this game would be adventuring/discovery, traveling is just what you do when you move from one fight to another.
DracoKalen said:Well EQ has been superceded. The few games I played you're forced to dismount at the first attack, as a dragon it wasn't a surprise when I fell to the ground from some ground fire. For VR to design as you describe would ignore 20 years of advancement.
It's not a matter of "leveling up". It's a matter that you cleared that area as you were adventuring and discovering. Repop is realistic for the next group through so they can adventure through, it's not for someone whose already neutralized the threat already. Now if the zones scale, so you do it once and then the next time through the mobs are tougher that would be another discussion altogether. But redoing the same thing over and over is not "meanigful"
Travel is not an obstacle, there are obstacles as you travel. So the first time into a zone you would only ride your horse if you wanted to give the enemy the first attack or were just looking to be reckless. Would love to see bandits on the less traveled roads.
But key to this game would be adventuring/discovery, traveling is just what you do when you move from one fight to another.
You certainly describe the basis of modern MMO design positions.
As someone who's been playing time-locked EQ servers for the last 3 years, travel gets old quickly and basically noone likes it.
It's important that it's there for the first time you explore a zone, but other than that, there should be an option to fast travel to key points in order to avoid needlessly travelling for 15 minutes to any dungeon.
We raid for 3 hours per evening, which is already a hefty amount of time for adults with families to put aside for gaming - forcing us to walk somewhere for 30 mins for those raids is completely unneecessary.
And if someone does prefer to walk somewhere for 30 mins, they alway can, nobody is stopping them.
But for the rest of us, who play for dungeons and raids and challenge, there has to be an option to go somewhere in a reasonable amount of time.
(again, after the area is initially explored)
BamBam said: @Tanix VR are making a modern mmo, with old school feel. we been told many times now.They also showcased movement speed buffs and talk about mounts, teleportation and so on. All part of the game. Maybe you liked the vanilla Eq most and that's cool. Not everyone feels the same, so accept the things that's has been showcased. Instead of aguing against somthing that is 99,99% going to be a partner the game. But I think it's safe to draw a somewhat conclusion that we want traveling to matter, we all want dangerous elements while exploring, and we all want some sort of time sink to traveling (some more than others).
Well said!
Nimrael81 said:As someone who's been playing time-locked EQ servers for the last 3 years, travel gets old quickly and basically noone likes it.
It's important that it's there for the first time you explore a zone, but other than that, there should be an option to fast travel to key points in order to avoid needlessly travelling for 15 minutes to any dungeon.
We raid for 3 hours per evening, which is already a hefty amount of time for adults with families to put aside for gaming - forcing us to walk somewhere for 30 mins for those raids is completely unneecessary.
And if someone does prefer to walk somewhere for 30 mins, they alway can, nobody is stopping them.
But for the rest of us, who play for dungeons and raids and challenge, there has to be an option to go somewhere in a reasonable amount of time.
(again, after the area is initially explored)
So, I guess what you're saying is that once you have explored the world, its purpose should essentially be that of a lobby for players to arrange groups and go play the real game? I'm sorry, but that's not the game I'm looking forward to and hoping for. I want a living world with lots of things going on besides mob killing. I do not want to be able to go anywhere and everywhere in an instant. If time is short, I'll find something to do nearby. And if I absolutely must go to a far away place to do what I want, I'll plan ahead and invest some time in getting there.
The beaten-to-death argument that those who like to walk can always do so, doesn't fly, never has, never will. Ostacles are not obstacles if they can be ignored.
BamBam said: @Tanix VR are making a modern mmo, with old school feel. we been told many times now.They also showcased movement speed buffs and talk about mounts, teleportation and so on. All part of the game. Maybe you liked the vanilla Eq most and that's cool. Not everyone feels the same, so accept the things that's has been showcased. Instead of aguing against somthing that is 99,99% going to be a partner the game. But I think it's safe to draw a somewhat conclusion that we want traveling to matter, we all want dangerous elements while exploring, and we all want some sort of time sink to traveling (some more than others).
Actually, the entire point of this game was to take the concepts of what made EQ/Vanguard great and bring them to the modern age. If the goal of this game was to simply apply modern design concepts, with an "old school" feel (look and style, not mechanics), there would be no point to this game, or VR making it for the niche audience they are marketing it to.
I have no problems with speed bufs or teleportation, they were a part of EQ. My concern with mounts is that can invalidate what made travel important in EQ (as is obvious with games like WoW where everyone gets a mount and then travel as an obstacle is no longer a game play element). That is not to say a mount can not be properly implemented in Pantheon, as even EQ had "j-boots" which is just a mount you put on your feet, so the concept of a "mount" within the game is not contrary to a healthy travel system, but how it is implemented can kil travel as a game play element (which it had in modern games), or it can enhance it.
My concern in these discussions is when people put their desire for "fun" above the results of that "fun" they are asking for, which ultimately destroys the game. Such design is the foundation of modern MMOs where travel is not a continuing obstacle in play, it is merely a one time hurrdle and then no longer of importance. When people make the arguments of "Well, travel is fine and all, but once we get high level, we shouldn't have to bother with it", they are in essence asking for exactly what is of modern MMOs where the players run through the content and sit at high level bored wondering what they can do.
That "feel" of EQ is actually a culimination of numerous game mechanics that no longer exists in modern MMOs, hence the reason people like me (and those who followed this game from its inception) were interested in it. We are not here because this is yet another game that became popular on MMORPG.com as we wait tp zerg through it and cast it aside like all the others out there. We want what made EQ great and having fast travel, easy of play, hemogenized classes, solo content, etc... is not EQ, it is a modern MMO.
So saying you want all of these modern content designs in this game is somewhat conflicting to the tenants of the game. When someone claims they want travel to mean something, but then wants mounts with stackable speed buffs and content designed so that once they hit max level they can zip through the world in a few minutes, they are asking for exactly the opposite. It is akin to saying you want death to mean something, but you want a minor exp penalty, your gear to stay on you when you die and easy access to get back to where you died, but you know... you want a meaningful death penalty?
You can't have "old school" feel with a bunch of modern mainstream mechanics. All you end up getting is a modern mainstream game marketed as "old school" in name only. If that was the goal of VR, I know not only would I not be here, but neither would many others here as well. So I respect what you desire, but if you want to expeience "old school", then you need to allow the game to be designed with this ideal in mind rather than constantly demanding mainstream elements that conflict with that goal.
BamBam, Nimrael81 makes my point exactly.
Nimrael81 wants mainstream game design, not just partially, but completely.
Travel is a one time "annoyance" that is tolerated, but only for the first time. Then, the game is to be made easy in travel so players can get anywhere in the world in short time.
The reasoning is that people have lives and don't have the time to play a game, dealing with all the inconviences of such, that players should be able to get to the "fun" quickly if they only have a bit of time to play.
This is mainstream travel design. It is the very core ideal and reasoning to which drives modern MMO development and it is at complete odds with the tenants of this game.
Travel is not meaningful if it is not an obstacle, travel being easy is exactly the opposite of meaningful travel.
DracoKalen said:Well EQ has been superceded. The few games I played you're forced to dismount at the first attack, as a dragon it wasn't a surprise when I fell to the ground from some ground fire. For VR to design as you describe would ignore 20 years of advancement.
It's not a matter of "leveling up". It's a matter that you cleared that area as you were adventuring and discovering. Repop is realistic for the next group through so they can adventure through, it's not for someone whose already neutralized the threat already. Now if the zones scale, so you do it once and then the next time through the mobs are tougher that would be another discussion altogether. But redoing the same thing over and over is not "meanigful"
Travel is not an obstacle, there are obstacles as you travel. So the first time into a zone you would only ride your horse if you wanted to give the enemy the first attack or were just looking to be reckless. Would love to see bandits on the less traveled roads.
But key to this game would be adventuring/discovery, traveling is just what you do when you move from one fight to another.
I disagree. What you seem to be wanting is a game, I want a world to live in online. I want every zone to be dangerous to every character regardless of level. A world that keeps you alert and aware of your surroundings at all times. Just because I've cleared a zone once shouldn't make it irrelevant imho. Travel is an integral part of the world, and shouldn't be trivialised for a character simply because they have attained a certain level. Just my 2 coppers.
Tanix said:BamBam, Nimrael81 makes my point exactly.
Nimrael81 wants mainstream game design, not just partially, but completely.
Travel is a one time "annoyance" that is tolerated, but only for the first time. Then, the game is to be made easy in travel so players can get anywhere in the world in short time.
The reasoning is that people have lives and don't have the time to play a game, dealing with all the inconviences of such, that players should be able to get to the "fun" quickly if they only have a bit of time to play.
This is mainstream travel design. It is the very core ideal and reasoning to which drives modern MMO development and it is at complete odds with the tenants of this game.
Travel is not meaningful if it is not an obstacle, travel being easy is exactly the opposite of meaningful travel.
Exactly. Well said.
BamBam said: @Tanix I don't demand anything VR already has these elements in the game. The train is gone and you are left standing on the station, wondering what happend. It's ok, ur welcome on the train mate, teleport to the next station so you can get back on. But when you enter, please accept that things aren't the way you hoped it would be, ok. Accept it or stay behind dreaming.. And please stop implying I said somthing that I did not.. Read my comments first thx.
Except your claim is invalid. Modern MMO fast travel has not been established (which is what I was pointing out).
As I said, EQ had teleports, I don't argue against them, just the details of their implementation.
EQ also had speed buffs, which again, I don't argue against, just how they are implemented.
Mounts have been mentioned to be in Pantheon, but HOW they are implemented has not been specified (unless you can point me to specifics).
Lastly, travel being meaningful is a core tenant of this game.
So could you point me to where VR has already established these details in stone supporting your arguments?
Syrif said:@Tanix Nice thoughts and points you make :) You are 100% correct - travel is not meaningful if it is not an obstacle.
Nope. Travel should not be an obstacle. Travel should include obstacles. There is a difference
Travel is an obstacle - you need to go from one continent across the sea to another continent but the boats aren't running.
You can swim but it will take you an hour of real time to accomplish and the boats won't pick you up if you're in the water.
Thats travel as an obstacle
Travel with obstacles - you leave town and sometime later you're attacked by wolves or later that night at your camp you're overrun by undead. Or, you get to the edge of the zone and to transition from one zone to another is a very steep and dangerous climb up the side of a mountain that has no ladder/steps or a clear path. You have to figure out the climb as you go. There can also be benefitial encounters as well.
Thats meaningful travel.
BamBam said: When did I mention modern fast travel..? I mention teleportation spells, speed buff and talk about mounts. I rly am baffled.. This conversation os done.
BamBam said: For me travel time is meaningful and a must have in a game Like Pantheon, but how far are you willing to travel to get to your group location? I hope most of the traveling can be achieved within 5-15 mins. In some cases, It would be ok for me to travel 15-30 mins. In order to get to that special place, if I know I have some hours to spend. I hope to see a meaningful infrastructure that links the map together cleverly, without making the game Feel small. So a balanced between time used and accability of portals, ships and other travel systems. Let me know what you think
BamBam said: Sow and mounts is a big yes for me it adds nicely to the fantasy setting and provide a much needed movement speed buff. + mounts look awesome!
15-30 mins to get to the "special places" (ie the farthest reaches).
That would be travel far faster than EQ, far faster than even Vanguard and even faster than release WoW.
/shrug
DracoKalen said:Syrif said:@Tanix Nice thoughts and points you make :) You are 100% correct - travel is not meaningful if it is not an obstacle.
Nope. Travel should not be an obstacle. Travel should include obstacles. There is a difference
Travel is an obstacle - you need to go from one continent across the sea to another continent but the boats aren't running.
You can swim but it will take you an hour of real time to accomplish and the boats won't pick you up if you're in the water.
Thats travel as an obstacle
Travel with obstacles - you leave town and sometime later you're attacked by wolves or later that night at your camp you're overrun by undead. Or, you get to the edge of the zone and to transition from one zone to another is a very steep and dangerous climb up the side of a mountain that has no ladder/steps or a clear path. You have to figure out the climb as you go. There can also be benefitial encounters as well.
Thats meaningful travel.
Ok, lets approach this from a diffrent angle.
IF you go from point A to point B, do you think the time in travel is a basic obstacle?
Tanix said:DracoKalen said:Syrif said:@Tanix Nice thoughts and points you make :) You are 100% correct - travel is not meaningful if it is not an obstacle.
Nope. Travel should not be an obstacle. Travel should include obstacles. There is a difference
Travel is an obstacle - you need to go from one continent across the sea to another continent but the boats aren't running.
You can swim but it will take you an hour of real time to accomplish and the boats won't pick you up if you're in the water.
Thats travel as an obstacle
Travel with obstacles - you leave town and sometime later you're attacked by wolves or later that night at your camp you're overrun by undead. Or, you get to the edge of the zone and to transition from one zone to another is a very steep and dangerous climb up the side of a mountain that has no ladder/steps or a clear path. You have to figure out the climb as you go. There can also be benefitial encounters as well.
Thats meaningful travel.
Ok, lets approach this from a diffrent angle.
IF you go from point A to point B, do you think the time in travel is a basic obstacle?
No. Travel is a necessity because no matter how you define it you are always traveling, whether it's from town to town or adventuring in a deep dark cave.
IRL when I go on vacation is a 2.5 hour drive to the house, that's not an obstacle it's the beginning of the adventure
@DracoKalen
I am so confused on your posisition...same with BamBam lol.
Have you played EQ?
If so, Do you believe that traveling from Qeynos to Freeport, both towns, should be instant or should require time to get there?...much like your vacation taking 2.5 hours.
DracoKalen said:Tanix said:DracoKalen said:Syrif said:@Tanix Nice thoughts and points you make :) You are 100% correct - travel is not meaningful if it is not an obstacle.
Nope. Travel should not be an obstacle. Travel should include obstacles. There is a difference
Travel is an obstacle - you need to go from one continent across the sea to another continent but the boats aren't running.
You can swim but it will take you an hour of real time to accomplish and the boats won't pick you up if you're in the water.
Thats travel as an obstacle
Travel with obstacles - you leave town and sometime later you're attacked by wolves or later that night at your camp you're overrun by undead. Or, you get to the edge of the zone and to transition from one zone to another is a very steep and dangerous climb up the side of a mountain that has no ladder/steps or a clear path. You have to figure out the climb as you go. There can also be benefitial encounters as well.
Thats meaningful travel.
Ok, lets approach this from a diffrent angle.
IF you go from point A to point B, do you think the time in travel is a basic obstacle?
No. Travel is a necessity because no matter how you define it you are always traveling, whether it's from town to town or adventuring in a deep dark cave.
IRL when I go on vacation is a 2.5 hour drive to the house, that's not an obstacle it's the beginning of the adventure
So what is a run speed spell as it concerns travel time, if travel time is not an obstacle?
Watemper said:@DracoKalen
I am so confused on your posisition...same with BamBam lol.
Have you played EQ?
If so, Do you believe that traveling from Qeynos to Freeport, both towns, should be instant or should require time to get there?...much like your vacation taking 2.5 hours.
No in a previous post I stated I had never played EQ. But that really isn't the point of this thread. Just an example Tanix gave as why he doesn't like horses and other things that decrease travel time.
Not sure why you'd be confused. I feel travel is part of the adventure, not an obstacle. There can be obstacles as you travel (Bandits/undead/wild critters) but travel itself is not an obstacle. If travel time is made interesting I have no problem with it but just to insert it as a time sink is a waste of players time, neither fulfilling or meaningful.