Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Travel time

    • 696 posts
    March 26, 2019 2:52 PM PDT

    DagnyStout said: Time spent doing any task in a game is obviously a difficult thing to balance. If I have 2 hours to play and it takes 30 minutes to get into adventuring mode, then 25% of my play time is “wasted” if adventuring is why I pay to play the game. This risk / reward calculation is more painful at 1 hours to play and less at 10. Perhaps special rule set servers that set min / max play sessions in a 24 hour time period would be interesting. Has anyone seen that tried? There will be no perfect answer to this question as acceptable risk and reward is always subjective to the individual participating in that risk / reward exchange.

     

    If it takes everyone 30 mins from your spot to get to said adventure, didn't know traveling wasn't an adventure and instead a waste of time, then it technically isn't a waste of time since everyone has to go through it. Now if you took an hour for what seems to be a 30 min travel by taking a different route, or getting pre-occupied with something else, than that can be considered wasted time for you. 

    • 1247 posts
    March 26, 2019 2:53 PM PDT

    @Dagnystout I don’t know that special rules servers in ‘EZ mode’ is the answer. The way I see it is players will love this game, while others won’t. I think that’s what VR means when they say they aren’t trying to appeal to the masses. Just my thoughts :)


    This post was edited by Syrif at March 26, 2019 3:05 PM PDT
    • 46 posts
    March 26, 2019 3:19 PM PDT
    Sorry it seems I am making the case for easy mode. I’m certainly not advocating for easy. Only balanced risk versus reward that makes the game enjoyable so the game is viable to market.

    There are people on this thread arguing that time IS the obstacle. Not how that time is spent. By that model, scale speed based on last weeks play time. If 25% of your play should be spent in travel, scale travel speed to 25% of time played last week.

    There are many examples of time as a waste that ads no value. Inventory organization is on my list. As is spell book organization. I admit I know people who could enjoy an entire play session just organizing their inventory, but I won’t play a game where that is the normal expectation for risk versus reward. Travel is no different.
    • 1247 posts
    March 26, 2019 3:30 PM PDT

    Eh, I have yet to see an mmorpg without a loaded inventory. Anyway, some people will like the depth of Pantheon while others won’t :)

    • 370 posts
    March 26, 2019 3:31 PM PDT

     

     

    Honestly after like level 20 in EQ travel time wasn't an issue. I can't think of an instance where it was "no I can't come that's too far". I knew the areas I wanted to level in and I logged out near by. This added to the game for me. After spending weeks in one area without going back to my starting city, when I finally did return, I felt like a wild frontier man seeing the big city for the first time in years.

    • 316 posts
    March 26, 2019 3:36 PM PDT
    Respectfully disagree, Dagny. I think those extra "involvements" add a lot to a feeling of realism, which is fun.
    • 2752 posts
    March 26, 2019 3:58 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    It's called Ports, SOW, and/or a mount.....

    But nah we will go with your extreme. Let's just have a teleporter in each area that you discover and just screw traveling..am I right. I mean the developers took time to craft these wonderful zones...lets only see it once.

    /s

    Did I do good?

    Not really sure what you are getting at with this one.

    • 1247 posts
    March 26, 2019 4:22 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Watemper said:

    It's called Ports, SOW, and/or a mount.....

    But nah we will go with your extreme. Let's just have a teleporter in each area that you discover and just screw traveling..am I right. I mean the developers took time to craft these wonderful zones...lets only see it once.

    /s

    Did I do good?

    Not really sure what you are getting at with this one.

    Just curious - what don‘t you understand about it Iksar?

    • 5 posts
    March 27, 2019 2:33 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    BamBam, Nimrael81 makes my point exactly.

    Nimrael81 wants mainstream game design, not just partially, but completely. 

    Travel is a one time "annoyance" that is tolerated, but only for the first time. Then, the game is to be made easy in travel so players can get anywhere in the world in short time.

     

    Travel is exciting. Once. Exploration is exciting, for the first time.
    Where exactly is the excitement and thrill in running to a dungeon for 10 minutes through a zone that will (at that point) be mostly filled with grey mobs, running there for the 50th time for no good reason other than some derelict idea of that this travel had to be in game?


    And can people please stop equating time spent in a game with difficulty.

    Time spent in a game does not mean you are skilled or deserve better gear or anything of the sort. There have been countless guilds who are quicker, more efficient and better organizred, who've cleared content faster and leveled faster than other guilds. 
    Walking somewhere for 15 minutes does not mean you're somehow more deserving of anything in any game, and yes, after you've done it once or twice I don't see a valid reason why everyone should be forced to do it.


    And no, I'm still to hear a reasonable answer why someone couldn't do it if they wanted to and that made them happy (walking around everywhere). Go for it. Just don't force it on others.

     

     

    • 1033 posts
    March 27, 2019 6:44 AM PDT

    Nimrael81 said:

    Tanix said:

    BamBam, Nimrael81 makes my point exactly.

    Nimrael81 wants mainstream game design, not just partially, but completely. 

    Travel is a one time "annoyance" that is tolerated, but only for the first time. Then, the game is to be made easy in travel so players can get anywhere in the world in short time.

     

    Travel is exciting. Once. Exploration is exciting, for the first time.
    Where exactly is the excitement and thrill in running to a dungeon for 10 minutes through a zone that will (at that point) be mostly filled with grey mobs, running there for the 50th time for no good reason other than some derelict idea of that this travel had to be in game?


    And can people please stop equating time spent in a game with difficulty.

    Time spent in a game does not mean you are skilled or deserve better gear or anything of the sort. There have been countless guilds who are quicker, more efficient and better organizred, who've cleared content faster and leveled faster than other guilds. 
    Walking somewhere for 15 minutes does not mean you're somehow more deserving of anything in any game, and yes, after you've done it once or twice I don't see a valid reason why everyone should be forced to do it.


    And no, I'm still to hear a reasonable answer why someone couldn't do it if they wanted to and that made them happy (walking around everywhere). Go for it. Just don't force it on others.

     

    Again, if the zones are designed similar to EQ, there will be layered content. This means, a zone will not be like modern design where it is linear progression of play (ie the player goes from quest hub to quest hub based on levels, moves on and the past zone becomes "finished"). So, you may have level 50's, 30's, 40's (even a dungeon for level 50's) in a zone that had lower level content. 

    Travel is an obstacle in time involvement. It provides depth in play in that it slows down progression so that players aren't speeding to max level like they are playing an arcade game waiting for the next level to pop up. Travel is a component of world design, layered into the "living, breathing, aspect of play". This has nothing to do with skill, and everything to do with world balance and design.  

    Travel time has numerous subtle effects on game play. For instance, in a death penalty, travel time can add to the risk in play. That is, if you die and have to run all the way back to your corpse, travel being meaningful also makes death more meaningful. If a player knows that if they die, the recovery could take a while, the risk in the venture becomes more meaningful. These are the subtle elements of play travel time has on game play and they are numerous and branching throughout other game systems. 


    This post was edited by Tanix at March 27, 2019 6:44 AM PDT
    • 370 posts
    March 27, 2019 11:01 PM PDT

    @Nimrael81

         Travel time factors into the death penatly. I think its often over looked as to what made EQ great. Death mattered, it wasn't just an inconvience, it often meant for a long recovery time. That meant people fought longer through battles rather than just giving up. It meant deciding on if an evac was worth it a crucial decission. You need to look at all the factors into what made EQ an egaging game and even some of the more tedius aspects of the game added into it.

     

    To add onto that... if you need to get somewhere fast you can find someone who can port you. More player interaction, this is a good thing. At every turn if we can funnel players into interacting with each other more, rather than less, it will benefit the game. Take almost any current MMO out. They have ways to instantly port around. It shrinks the world and reduces the amount of player interaction needed, both of which VR is trying to steer away from. 

    • 5 posts
    March 28, 2019 12:18 AM PDT

    EppE said:

    @Nimrael81

         Travel time factors into the death penatly. I think its often over looked as to what made EQ great. Death mattered, it wasn't just an inconvience, it often meant for a long recovery time. That meant people fought longer through battles rather than just giving up. It meant deciding on if an evac was worth it a crucial decission. You need to look at all the factors into what made EQ an egaging game and even some of the more tedius aspects of the game added into it.

     

     

    That's fine and I'm certainly not against it nor did I say anything against it.

    But it's something entirely different to have group crawl their way to a distant dungeon through level-appropriate content and experience the danger and thrill as they're leveling etc...

    As opposed to max level characters going to a dungeon but having to factor in 15 minutes of walking/running through a zone of grey mobs.

     

    Perhaps the solution is to unlock certain travel points at max. level. 

    I don't know. But take into account that this game will need subs to live and thrive and revenue to keep dev team stacked so they can push out new content.

    If it goes full-out EQ1, we will have old EQ1 players (like me) playing it, but with less time on their hands and no new gamers will be interested (or very few).

    There is a market for a challenging, group-centered game but it needs to have modern quality of life stuff, content for all sorts (casuals, hard core, solo, heroic, raid, crafting, even housing), if it wants to succeed.

     

    And again, for whatever reason, some of my EQ friends equate time spent in the game with difficulty.

    Travel for the 20th time through out-leveled zones is not difficult. Camping an easy mob for 10 hours is not difficult. Etc.

     

    Most people don't want "instant gratification", this is a narrative that's gone way out of hand, games like Darks Souls, Bloodborne, Nioh, a number of others have hit big on the market.

    Elder Scrolls Online has fantastic veteran content including a unique Maelstrom Arena - possibly the hardest solo content in any MMO, with fantastic rewards as motivation.

     

    Offering challenge in an environment that gives you an opportunity to socialize is one thing, I'm all for that.

    But walking through a grey zone for 15 minutes is not challenging, nor fun. 


    And again, if someone chooses to walk those 15 mins every time, noone is stopping them. 

     

     

     

     

    • 1479 posts
    March 28, 2019 12:40 AM PDT

    Nimrael81 said:



    And again, if someone chooses to walk those 15 mins every time, noone is stopping them. 

     

     

    Please stop with this absurdity of "if someones wants to be a peg leg, let him be." It's a design choice to overall apply the same rules to every players. If a players wants to DPS with a tank or healer he WILL be shun off because it's not what they are at best, the same goes with players : If a player says "I'm gonna walk i'll be here in 15min" and another says "Taking the flypath beeing here in 1min", tell me who will have a group spot ?

    The game has to have rules that will affect everyone, because human will ALLWAYS choose the least resistance path (pretty much like electricity) and will never voluntary cripple themselves, but offering more and more of this least resistance path disembowel the essence of the game and world. Let the world be realistic to some extent, and let players find themselves a least resistance path (Shortcuts, shorter travels, roads that increase traveling speed) that will feel more like an accomplishment than offering them a least resistance path to begin with.

    • 793 posts
    March 28, 2019 4:56 AM PDT

    Once I kill a dragon once, I shouldn't have to fight him again, he should die upon my mere presence and give me loot.

     

    • 230 posts
    March 28, 2019 6:06 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Nimrael81 said:



    And again, if someone chooses to walk those 15 mins every time, noone is stopping them. 

     

     

    Please stop with this absurdity of "if someones wants to be a peg leg, let him be." It's a design choice to overall apply the same rules to every players. If a players wants to DPS with a tank or healer he WILL be shun off because it's not what they are at best, the same goes with players : If a player says "I'm gonna walk i'll be here in 15min" and another says "Taking the flypath beeing here in 1min", tell me who will have a group spot ?

    The game has to have rules that will affect everyone, because human will ALLWAYS choose the least resistance path (pretty much like electricity) and will never voluntary cripple themselves, but offering more and more of this least resistance path disembowel the essence of the game and world. Let the world be realistic to some extent, and let players find themselves a least resistance path (Shortcuts, shorter travels, roads that increase traveling speed) that will feel more like an accomplishment than offering them a least resistance path to begin with.

     

     Without a doubt!

     

     But people do like their playstyles. If someone wants to go old school archaic they will. From what I've read on this thread there are some who want to drag us all down to their level because they think it's how things should be. Personally I think everyone should have a choice.

    • 1033 posts
    March 28, 2019 7:09 AM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Once I kill a dragon once, I shouldn't have to fight him again, he should die upon my mere presence and give me loot.

     

    Yep, that pretty much kills the argument about "once and done" travel. 

    • 1033 posts
    March 28, 2019 7:16 AM PDT

    DracoKalen said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Nimrael81 said:



    And again, if someone chooses to walk those 15 mins every time, noone is stopping them. 

     

     

    Please stop with this absurdity of "if someones wants to be a peg leg, let him be." It's a design choice to overall apply the same rules to every players. If a players wants to DPS with a tank or healer he WILL be shun off because it's not what they are at best, the same goes with players : If a player says "I'm gonna walk i'll be here in 15min" and another says "Taking the flypath beeing here in 1min", tell me who will have a group spot ?

    The game has to have rules that will affect everyone, because human will ALLWAYS choose the least resistance path (pretty much like electricity) and will never voluntary cripple themselves, but offering more and more of this least resistance path disembowel the essence of the game and world. Let the world be realistic to some extent, and let players find themselves a least resistance path (Shortcuts, shorter travels, roads that increase traveling speed) that will feel more like an accomplishment than offering them a least resistance path to begin with.

     

     Without a doubt!

     

     But people do like their playstyles. If someone wants to go old school archaic they will. From what I've read on this thread there are some who want to drag us all down to their level because they think it's how things should be. Personally I think everyone should have a choice.

    It would be more accurate to state that some want to drag this entire game into yet another modern mainstream remake. This game is being made because there are no games like this on the market and because many of the features of play that made those older games what they were are no longer present in games today. The game tenants, the developers comments, the entire point of this game is based on that. So, it is as I said, more accurate to say that some people are demanding modern mainstream design focus in a game that is being designed because that is all that exists today. 

    My advice to those who keep asking for all the same things that exist in modern games today is to let this game be developed to its ideal. Try the game and then make a judgement. If by then, you still don't like it, fine... the game isn't for you, but demanding this game be yet another modern mainstream game is exactly counter to the very existence of this game. 

    As I have said, and some others have as well. I won't play this game if it is modern mainstream. VR only has to tell me they are making this game with modern mainstream concepts and I will wish them well and move on. If I wanted modern mainstream, I would be playing it now as there are more choices in that development focus than one would know what to do with. 

    • 1033 posts
    March 28, 2019 7:18 AM PDT

    Tanix said:

    DracoKalen said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Nimrael81 said:



    And again, if someone chooses to walk those 15 mins every time, noone is stopping them. 

     

     

    Please stop with this absurdity of "if someones wants to be a peg leg, let him be." It's a design choice to overall apply the same rules to every players. If a players wants to DPS with a tank or healer he WILL be shun off because it's not what they are at best, the same goes with players : If a player says "I'm gonna walk i'll be here in 15min" and another says "Taking the flypath beeing here in 1min", tell me who will have a group spot ?

    The game has to have rules that will affect everyone, because human will ALLWAYS choose the least resistance path (pretty much like electricity) and will never voluntary cripple themselves, but offering more and more of this least resistance path disembowel the essence of the game and world. Let the world be realistic to some extent, and let players find themselves a least resistance path (Shortcuts, shorter travels, roads that increase traveling speed) that will feel more like an accomplishment than offering them a least resistance path to begin with.

     

     Without a doubt!

     

     But people do like their playstyles. If someone wants to go old school archaic they will. From what I've read on this thread there are some who want to drag us all down to their level because they think it's how things should be. Personally I think everyone should have a choice.

    It would be more accurate to state that some want to drag this entire game into yet another modern mainstream remake. This game is being made because there are no games like this on the market and because many of the features of play that made those older games what they were are no longer present in games today. The game tenants, the developers comments, the entire point of this game is based on that. So, it is as I said, more accurate to say that some people are demanding modern mainstream design focus in a game that is being designed to fill a void because modern mainstream is all that exists today. 

    My advice to those who keep asking for all the same things that exist in modern games today is to let this game be developed to its ideal. Try the game and then make a judgement. If by then, you still don't like it, fine... the game isn't for you, but demanding this game be yet another modern mainstream game is exactly counter to the very existence of this game. 

    As I have said, and some others have as well. I won't play this game if it is modern mainstream. VR only has to tell me they are making this game with modern mainstream concepts and I will wish them well and move on. If I wanted modern mainstream, I would be playing it now as there are more choices in that development focus than one would know what to do with. 

    • 230 posts
    March 28, 2019 8:06 AM PDT

    The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

    • 1033 posts
    March 28, 2019 8:09 AM PDT

    Welll.. When you start mocking honest discussion, it is an obvious sign your argument is filled with holes. 

    • 3852 posts
    March 28, 2019 8:15 AM PDT

    There is a difference between mockery and less ...nasty ... forms of humour. DracoKalen wasn't mocking anything.

    One could also say that when one posts over and over in the same thread within short periods of time it reflects a certain defensiveness and doubt that what one has said earlier will withstand analysis. Perhaps we should just focus on the arguments not the quirks of those making them.

    • 370 posts
    March 28, 2019 8:17 AM PDT

    Honestly this isn't a discussion, its people stating their opinions over and over. Nothing new has been added in a few pages.

    • 1033 posts
    March 28, 2019 8:22 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    There is a difference between mockery and less ...nasty ... forms of humour. DracoKalen wasn't mocking anything.

    One could also say that when one posts over and over in the same thread within short periods of time it reflects a certain defensiveness and doubt that what one has said earlier will withstand analysis. Perhaps we should just focus on the arguments not the quirks of those making them.

    I think DracoKalen is an adult and doesn't need you white knighting for him, or does he?


    This post was edited by Tanix at March 28, 2019 8:29 AM PDT
    • 1033 posts
    March 28, 2019 8:26 AM PDT

    EppE said:

    Honestly this isn't a discussion, its people stating their opinions over and over. Nothing new has been added in a few pages.

    Not every opinion is a sound or a valid one, hence continued arguments over various topics. 

    Actually, what we have established is that some positions are a bit lacking. Fulton pointed out one with his example of a travel argument in relation to beating a dragon. Others have shown some arguments to be specifically focused on wanting convenience, not game play. 

    You may think the arguments have not been productive, but I think the details of them have been enlightening to the persons reasoning for why they ask for the features they do. Is that not important? 

     

     


    This post was edited by Tanix at March 28, 2019 8:28 AM PDT
    • 287 posts
    March 28, 2019 8:32 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Let the world be realistic to some extent, and let players find themselves a least resistance path (Shortcuts, shorter travels, roads that increase traveling speed) that will feel more like an accomplishment than offering them a least resistance path to begin with.

    I know travel time is the topic of this thread but I'd like to point out that this exact same argument could be made for things like a hardcore death penalty (die once and you have to reroll) and other divisive features.  Those who enjoy such a mechanic want everyone to have to reroll when they die depite a game lacking that mechanic not preventing you from rerolling every time you die.  It's a desire to force your playstyle on everyone else so that you won't be put at a self-inflicted disadvantage.

    In the end VR will do what they please with such mechanics.  Pantheon will be the game they want it to be.  Us arguing about these polarizing issues will achieve nothing and, clearly, nobody is going to convince anyone else to switch camps.  This far into this thread it ought simply be locked to prevent further bickering and bruised feels.