Cynwulf said:The problem with the elf model is that it looks more human then elf. should have sharp angular features which does not fit any human stereotype. Fictionally elves are generally portrayed as having sharp angular features, eyebrows and pointed ears.
I thought the exact same thing. Elves need a relook to say the least.
Anyway, you couldn’t have said it any better than this.
Syrif said:Cynwulf said:The problem with the elf model is that it looks more human then elf. should have sharp angular features which does not fit any human stereotype. Fictionally elves are generally portrayed as having sharp angular features, eyebrows and pointed ears.
I thought the exact same thing. Elves need a relook to say the least.
Anyway, you couldn’t have said it any better than this.
Not all fiction is the same though. I would say there isn't much of a difference between the male and female elves.
Porygon said:I hope people choose to not play the game because a race they like isnt an exact replica of EQ1. The less people trying to get EQ(3?) To happen the better.
Blasphemy.
Syrif said:I see you keep bringing up being against ‘eq3 or whatnot’ over and over again in threads, but perhaps you may eventually realize the fact that Pantheon is the spiritual successor to ‘Classic Everquest’ as Camelot Unchained is the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot. Heck, the devs of each game made the previous one afterall. They have even said this themselves. None of the similarities and inspirations between Pantheon and Classic Everquest should come as a surprise to you anymore. That‘s all I will say on that.
Core audience.
Iksar said:Nonsense. Saying Elves are one particular thing with a distinct and agreed upon look is complete nonsense as there has always been great diversity in how elves both look and act throughout history. The notion that one cannot have their own take on an old idea is equally absurd (and pointing at Elves but not Gnomes is a very odd choice given the minor alterations to the former compared with the latter).Keebler Elves, Christmas Elves, Harry Potter, Shakespeare, and Beowulf Elves are very different from one another yet they are all accepted as elves. They have been everything from benevolent helpers to malevolent predators, from beautiful human-like creatures to small invisible demons that give people and livestock diseases, illnesses, bad dreams, or steal babies and replace them with changelings.
Thank you. This is what I've been trying to say but apparently it hasn't gotten across. There is no uniform portrayal of "elves". There isn't even a uniform portrayal of dwarves or halflings, to be quite honest.
Now ideally, the character creation allows for a level of diversity within species. If Homo sapiens can have a wide range of phenotypic diversity in skin color and facial features, then I see no reason why any other humanoid species cannot also have that level of variation.
Though strictly speaking as an aside - the diversity with our human species is technically very narrow; no matter how seemingly different someone looks from another, they're still easily recognizable as human. When creating characters of our own, of course, we tend to pay close attention to the minor details like head shape, jaw angle, the position and prominence of cheekbones, the breadth and flatness of a nose bridge, the structure of a brow, etc. Thus why these kinds of customizations are so valued by many players. I'm not really sure what my point is here aside from, I'm making a "big deal" about these truthfully minor facial characteristics not because I think they have some value in classifying actual people but because the creation of a character necessitates the examination of them. Also, when I say things like "this elf has asian features" or whatever, I'm not literally saying that the elf is "asian". There is no Asia continent in Terminus. But since these races are all generally modeled off human body and facial structure, it's the closest descriptor I have to what particular facial features look like. Also, just because there is no China in Terminus or the planets from which these various species came, doesn't mean that populations within each species don't have variety of features across them. And since they're based on Homo sapiens, it makes sense that the variation would be inspired by human variation (not that it has to be the only inspiration).
Uuuuuh. I'm not actually sure if that ramble came across right. But I think I got all my thoughts out!
@Naunet The Elves that Iksar mentioned still look Elvish though, even if it is a ‘Keebler’ Elf or Harry Potter Elf. I can see it, but they wouldn’t be fitting here ofc. Those Elves are not what the feedback was about though.
As others have already said, the problem with the Elf model here is that it looks more Human than Elf (like they are being pushed into something they are not). Not really fitting this genre, and I am in agreement with them. Honestly, I didn’t recognize the ‘elf‘ in newsletter - others have said the same. Elf needs a relook and some changes and improvements ofc (hence much of the poor feedback).
Good newsletter overall, the percetion description was awesome, a bit concern with the part where it said if you dicline one "story line" you can pick it up again, that seems a bit wierd, making players miss out on content because of a missclik would be bad, or because they didnt know how the system workd, maybe just lock them out of the perception trigger for an hour or 2.
The character models got torn appart, the human male is looking better and better with each itteration, the ogre faces look amazing but I'm sad to see the fat ogres going away, they look more imposing/mounstrous, the hafflings look good but as many have said they have a "plastic" look to their skin, it might just be the case of the lighting and not finished textures, but the overall hafling model looks great.
Now the elves, they look underwhelming and as many have said asian looking, the females and male elves look very similar in their facial features and bodies (males should have clearly larger shoulders taller and bulkier frames, something that's not evident), both elven faces don't look similar the concept art shown in the elves round table, their faces are too square, elves are normally associated with soft facial features, and narrow jaw/faces , and to me that's the thing that's missing and giving a not to elven look.
Something worrying that was already pointed out earlier was the fact that character models keep getting revamps, I know that some the previous art was place holder assets, but there needs to be a point where the "more or less" final version and direction of the model get's chossen, and I hope this is that stage, it does not make much sense to redo the models again, instead take what you created and keep improving upon it, giving the final touches, the game won't make or break due to some sub-par character models. Also I believe animations are a much more important asset to invest time on, since we see them 100% of our play time and bad/floaty animations are some of the most jarring things to see on video games, while the character models (faces and texture) rarely get seen in comparisson (mostly 3rd person back view)
Elves from the round table newsletter -
https://pantheonmmo.com/images/18FebruaryNewsletter/elves-roundtable/7.jpg
https://pantheonmmo.com/images/18FebruaryNewsletter/elves-roundtable/9.jpg
https://pantheonmmo.com/images/18FebruaryNewsletter/elves-roundtable/10.jpg
Ingame models -
https://pantheonmmo.com/images/18NovemberNewsletter/under_wraps/elves.png
@Jpedrote Yes - underwhelming is a good way to put it. Of what we’ve seen, this is the only image that I thought has actually looked Elvish, especially in this genre.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/images/elf.png
Naunet said:A lack of an epicanthal fold does not define an elf.
And neither does only having an epicanthal fold necessarily define an Elf either (per poor feedback). What it should be instead is something uniquely & distinctly ‘pointier’ in the eyes, brows, and ears.. & narrower jaws within the archetype that does not resemble humans and certain traits of humans. Variations of Elves are cool but going outside of the archetype doesn’t fit well.
Elves look way too human at the moment, like they are being pushed into something they are not. I know VR can do better, and I look forward to it progressing and improving.
Syrif said:And neither does only having an epicanthal fold necessarily define an Elf either (per poor feedback). What it should be instead is something uniquely & distinctly ‘pointier’ in the eyes, brows, and ears.. & narrower jaws within the archetype that does not resemble humans and certain traits of humans. Variations of Elves are cool but going outside of the archetype doesn’t fit well.
1. Your first sentence is largely irrelevant, as it doesn't at all run counter to what I was saying. 2. I think you've missed the point made repeatedly that there is not one single "archetype" for an elf face or body. You may have a preference for a particular portrayal, but that doesn't mean that all others are not elves.
jpedrote said:Now the elves, they look underwhelming and as many have said asian looking, the females and male elves look very similar in their facial features and bodies (males should have clearly larger shoulders taller and bulkier frames, something that's not evident),
Why? Elves are often portrayed as either being straight up androgynous or the males at least being far more slight than other humanoid species.
both elven faces don't look similar the concept art shown in the elves round table, their faces are too square, elves are normally associated with soft facial features, and narrow jaw/faces , and to me that's the thing that's missing and giving a not to elven look.
The concept art you posted does NOT have "soft" facial features at all, by the way. I think the in-game models shown in the newsletter look very similar to the concept art - the main differences being in rendering quality (I suspect they are not as far along in development as, say, ogres) and lighting. You would be amazed at what lighting can do to facial features.
[edit] Oops, I didn't mean to make this a second post. Sorry!
@Naunet And yet.. much feedback still implied the Elves look too human and odd; not enough Elvishness ;)
The simple problem, as has been said, is the Elf looks more Human than Elf.
Ogres look great, best looking orge in any mmo.
Elves look like a plastic figurine.
