Syrif said:Let Elves be Elves.. Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves, Half-Elves were all able to achieve that without having to come from an IRL culture. Ember and Ashen Elves shouldn’t come from an IRL culture either.
You're inferring an awful lot about the race based on their facial features. That they have a clear epicanthal fold does not mean Pantheon elves are going to have some stereotype of "asian" culture (as though that is some monolith).
@Naunet If you look at both threads, a number of people thought that the Elves looked to be too similar in appearance/culturally to IRL ‘Asian.’ This didn’t come from me. I do happen to be in agreement with others though that Elves should not be pushed so much in the direction of appearing like something from IRL such as ‘Asian’ (nor ’European’ for that matter). Perhaps that’s why people thought the Elves looked odd - even moreso than what people said about Ogres and Halflings. I can also see that plastic-like appearance in Elves too that people have mentioned. Elves should just be within the realm of Elves as they have always been. No IRL influence needed imo. I have nothing more to say on it to you. Good day.
Kilsin said:Now that the November Newsletter has dropped, what do you think about the new character models? Is there anything else that caught your eye? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Well, to be honest, reminds me alot of EQ2...which is fine, I guess, but not overly enthusiastic about it. Will have to wait and see it in alpha (soon?) before I render final judgement. Kinda has too much of a plastic look, to be honest.
Syrif said:@Naunet If you look at both threads, a number of people thought that the Elves looked to be too similar in appearance/culturally to IRL ‘Asian.’
There is no reason Pantheon elves can't have vaguely southeast asian bone structure and an epicanthal fold. As for culture - I have no idea where you're getting that. There's not much indication of elven culture at all so far, beyond the lore on the race page - and what culture is evident there is distinctly their own.
Anistosoles said:Kilsin said:Now that the November Newsletter has dropped, what do you think about the new character models? Is there anything else that caught your eye? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Well, to be honest, reminds me alot of EQ2...which is fine, I guess, but not overly enthusiastic about it. Will have to wait and see it in alpha (soon?) before I render final judgement. Kinda has too much of a plastic look, to be honest.
Yeah. The Elven ‘plastic look’ didn’t look good to me either. I thought that overall it looked pretty ridiculous. Clearly the Elf needs some work or a redo and I’m sure VR is looking at this amongst other things. Anyway, that’s that.
Yeesh, this thread has gone nutty.
Nothing wrong with the Asian influenced Elven look and trying to complain about it does look a bit prejudiced to me. The arguments against it are pretty weak from what I see, saying they shouldn't look like something from real life is weird given Halfling/Human/Dwarves all look more or less like caucasian humans from Earth in various sizes. If there is an issue with Asian influenced Elves then the same stink should be made about those other races.
Iksar said:Yeesh, this thread has gone nutty.
Nothing wrong with the Asian influenced Elven look and trying to complain about it does look a bit prejudiced to me. The arguments against it are pretty weak from what I see, saying they shouldn't look like something from real life is weird given Halfling/Human/Dwarves all look more or less like caucasian humans from Earth in various sizes. If there is an issue with Asian influenced Elves then the same stink should be made about those other races.
I think the point people were making is that Dwarves, Halflings, and Elves *these three in particular* originated in Germanic/Nordic mythology hence why they have their own, distinct look to them that the genre is familiar with.
Whereas Humans and other races obviously are not from Germanic mythology. If diversity is an issue, then that should be a Human thing, not an Elvish thing. Vague changes are fine, but the Elf in Newsletter was far from vague; rather drastic. I suppose we will see what more is revealed on the Elves though. That’s all I have to say on it. Happy Holidays.
There are really some ridiculous arguments . Just look at this picture .
If somebody says that he doesn't like this picture because the samurai looks like a Viking , does it mean that he doesn't like Vikings ? Ot even that he is a "latent racist" prejudiced against Vikings like someone didn't hesitate to say ? Of course not !
It merely means that when a samurai archetype is represented , most people expect that he will have a distinct asian look as he should. And it is their perfect right to dislike a samurai representation like the one above because it just feels and looks wrong for a samurai even if on another note they like Vikings when they are in a proper context . Same goes for fantasy creatures where an archetype has been established like elves , dwarves , unicorns , ghouls ... .
It is beyond me why there is such a polemics aboput something so obviously simple .
A samurai is an actual thing that existed in real history (and still exists to a certain degree today).
Elves are fictional and have been portrayed in countless iterations across countless fictional realms.
A lack of an epicanthal fold does not define an elf.
Anistosoles said:Kilsin said:Now that the November Newsletter has dropped, what do you think about the new character models? Is there anything else that caught your eye? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Well, to be honest, reminds me alot of EQ2...which is fine, I guess, but not overly enthusiastic about it. Will have to wait and see it in alpha (soon?) before I render final judgement. Kinda has too much of a plastic look, to be honest.
Yes I noted the "plastic" look...matter of fact looks familiar to me, not sure...was it Landmark where the characters looked that way? Don't remember really, dropped Landmark as I was focussed on Pantheon, kickstarter and the new website at the time. I had backed two games before Pantheon came along, and Pantheon blew them both out of the water for me. :)
Cana
Naunet said:Syrif said:@Naunet If you look at both threads, a number of people thought that the Elves looked to be too similar in appearance/culturally to IRL ‘Asian.’There is no reason Pantheon elves can't have vaguely southeast asian bone structure and an epicanthal fold. As for culture - I have no idea where you're getting that. There's not much indication of elven culture at all so far, beyond the lore on the race page - and what culture is evident there is distinctly their own.
Hmm reminds me of what I used to think about Dwarves...that they were Scottish. :) Didn't ruin anything for me. I am hoping our character races will fit with the Pantheon lore, lore based..pertinent to Pantheon..not worried otherwise. :)
Cana
Naunet said:Reichsritter said:Now you are moving the goalpost and revealing your true intentions.However, the reason for my post was you saying "Referring to non-European features as not traditional and "outside of the norm" isn't racist?" in regards to Elves. I already stated the facts about Elves, so there is no need to repeat myself. Yes, they are "made up" but they are part of the tradition of Germanic countries, stretching back millenia. I have nothing more to say on the topic.
My "true intentions" are advocating for a design that I like and that feels refreshing. Fantasy races don't have to be European. Period. End of story.
That is all up to the VR Devs and artists, advocating for something doesn't necessarily mean...that will happen. If it fits with the game design, the lore, "The Vision" etc it may happen.
I am ALL FOR Pantheon being different, unique...itself. It's why I intend to play a Gnome..Pantheon version. :) And I'm not quite sure how racist got into this conversation. The characters we will play are made up of pixels. :)
If facial features are choosable in the character select screen, we will see varying representations of what that particular person thinks their character should look like. That might be green hair, mohawk hair cuts..scars on face and torso. Nose rings.... Whatever. And the game design for character races will be what VR thinks is best...for their purposes. I am waiting on release day...the minor issues will be taken care of ...one way or another. :)
Cana
Naunet said:A samurai is an actual thing that existed in real history (and still exists to a certain degree today).
Elves are fictional and have been portrayed in countless iterations across countless fictional realms.
A lack of an epicanthal fold does not define an elf.
But.. Halfling, Dwarvish, & Elvish Germanic/Nordic mythology (where those 3 races originate) is an actual thing in history as well (still exists to a certain degree). I think that’s where some people are coming from in their feedback on the Elves and why they thought the Elvish images thus far don’t quite look like Elves in this genre. To me they didn’t look at all like Elves. I also read that the Elves looked too plastic-like, which I can also see. More work to be done ofc.
Also, @Deadshade great example!
Syrif said:But.. Halfling, Dwarvish, & Elvish Germanic/Nordic mythology (where those 3 races originate) is an actual thing in history as well (still exists to a certain degree). I think that’s where some people are coming from in their feedback on the Elves and why they thought the Elvish images thus far don’t quite look like Elves in this genre. To me they didn’t look at all like Elves. I also read that the Elves looked too plastic-like, which I can also see. More work to be done ofc.
And yet still, they are still not real things, and they have a wide variety of portrayals in fiction. There is not one single True Elf or True Halfling or True Dwarf. Even within just the MMOs I've played - a miniscule fraction of the fictional works that contain various elven portrayals - elves vary wildly in appearance.
The "plastic"ness is something I agree on. I presume their skin/hair textures are not yet on the same level of done-ness as the ogres.
@Naunet I’d think the Germanic/Nordic mythology and folklore that Dwarves/Halflings/Elves are derived from is pretty real, as is the Japanese culture that Samurai are derived from. Both are culturally derived.
In reference to Deadshade’s example via image, I suppose you can have a Viking Samurai but it may look ridiculous. Anyway, that’s all I have to say on that.
Syrif said:I think the point people were making is that Dwarves, Halflings, and Elves *these three in particular* originated in Germanic/Nordic mythology hence why they have their own, distinct look to them that the genre is familiar with.
Whereas Humans and other races obviously are not from Germanic mythology. If diversity is an issue, then that should be a Human thing, not an Elvish thing. Vague changes are fine, but the Elf in Newsletter was far from vague; rather drastic. I suppose we will see what more is revealed on the Elves though. That’s all I have to say on it. Happy Holidays.
Nonsense. Saying Elves are one particular thing with a distinct and agreed upon look is complete nonsense as there has always been great diversity in how elves both look and act throughout history. The notion that one cannot have their own take on an old idea is equally absurd (and pointing at Elves but not Gnomes is a very odd choice given the minor alterations to the former compared with the latter).
Keebler Elves, Christmas Elves, Harry Potter, Shakespeare, and Beowulf Elves are very different from one another yet they are all accepted as elves. They have been everything from benevolent helpers to malevolent predators, from beautiful human-like creatures to small invisible demons that give people and livestock diseases, illnesses, bad dreams, or steal babies and replace them with changelings.
Porygon said:I hope people choose to not play the game because a race they like isnt an exact replica of EQ1. The less people trying to get EQ(3?) To happen the better.
I think you are looking a bit much into it. This is honest feedback that people gave, as was asked for - that’s one thing I love about much of the EQC community. I’m not at all surprised by the poor feedback the Elves have received thus far - there is plenty of room for improvement. ;)
I see you keep bringing up being against ‘eq3 or whatnot’ over and over again in threads, but perhaps you may eventually realize the fact that Pantheon is the spiritual successor to ‘Classic Everquest’ as Camelot Unchained is the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot. Heck, the devs of each game made the previous one afterall. They have even said this themselves. None of the similarities and inspirations between Pantheon and Classic Everquest should come as a surprise to you anymore. That‘s all I will say on that.