Naunet said:Honestly reread your last paragraph and really think about what you typed - "appearance to be made more traditional", "aesthetics outside the norm". You may not mean it, but this comes across as extremely racist.
A better way to quote him would be to include the full sentence. "As long as Elves allow the option for appearance to be made more traditional, then aesthetics outside of the norm can easily be tolerated." Saying that this comes off as extremely racist ... yikes. It didn't come off that way at all to me.
oneADseven said:A better way to quote him would be to include the full sentence. "As long as Elves allow the option for appearance to be made more traditional, then aesthetics outside of the norm can easily be tolerated." Saying that this comes off as extremely racist ... yikes. It didn't come off that way at all to me.
Referring to non-European features as not traditional and "outside of the norm" isn't racist?
This is why gaming communities will never be the same as they were in the past, including in MMOs. We are living in the era of outrage culture now.
Elves come from Germanic mythology. Germanic mythology is not Japanese mythology, Chinese mythology, etc. Elves, including Tolkien Elves which basically all fantasy Elves are inspired by, are indeed traditionally European in appearance.
That is just a fact. You can cry about racism, but it doesn't change reality.
When it comes to video game aesthetics for fantasy races, I don't think so. This isn't a matter of calling any one race superior or inferior (a consistent theme when it comes to legitimate racism) -- he's citing tradition. There is nothing wrong with an american indian dwarf, aboriginal halfling, or asian elf. The point being made is that more players would feel connected to each race if they had the option to alter their appearance. Whether that's going for a more traditional look, or something outside of the norm, it doesn't really matter. The original concept art could very easily be referenced when it comes to what "traditional" means to someone.
@Naunet I don‘t see how anything Janus said is derogatory in the slightest bit. We are talking about the races afterall. I guess I’ll say it again - Elves, Halflings, and Dwarves come from **Nordic/Germanic mythology** and that’s why they have always looked the way they do (as you might say ‘more European’) - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. It is what it is and that’s exactly why they should not be drastically changed because that‘s just stupid imo. It’s like how the dark-complected Erudite race is what it is - I enjoyed that race but please don’t change it to the point that you don’t recognize it anymore ‘in the name of diversity.’ If diversity is the concern, then a simple solution: give humans more ‘diverse traits’ to choose from at character creation. Or better yet - create a new race!
What still bothers you about that?
Reichsritter said:This is why gaming communities will never be the same as they were in the past, including in MMOs. We are living in the era of outrage culture now.Elves come from Germanic mythology. Germanic mythology is not Japanese mythology, Chinese mythology, etc. Elves, including Tolkien Elves which basically all fantasy Elves are inspired by, are indeed traditionally European in appearance.
Elves are a freaking made-up race in a completely made up world. They can look however a designer wants them to look. I am not sorry that you can't just have your Western Europeans Only stuff anymore. You need to get over it.
They've got pointy ears and are humanoid. As far as I'm concerned, those are the ONLY requirements for being able to call a design an elf.
Naunet said:Reichsritter said:This is why gaming communities will never be the same as they were in the past, including in MMOs. We are living in the era of outrage culture now.Elves come from Germanic mythology. Germanic mythology is not Japanese mythology, Chinese mythology, etc. Elves, including Tolkien Elves which basically all fantasy Elves are inspired by, are indeed traditionally European in appearance.
Elves are a freaking made-up race in a completely made up world. They can look however a designer wants them to look. I am not sorry that you can't just have your Western Europeans Only stuff anymore. You need to get over it.
Now you are moving the goalpost and revealing your true intentions.
However, the reason for my post was you saying "Referring to non-European features as not traditional and "outside of the norm" isn't racist?" in regards to Elves. I already stated the facts about Elves, so there is no need to repeat myself. Yes, they are "made up" but they are part of the tradition of Germanic countries, stretching back millenia. I have nothing more to say on the topic.
Reichsritter said:Now you are moving the goalpost and revealing your true intentions.However, the reason for my post was you saying "Referring to non-European features as not traditional and "outside of the norm" isn't racist?" in regards to Elves. I already stated the facts about Elves, so there is no need to repeat myself. Yes, they are "made up" but they are part of the tradition of Germanic countries, stretching back millenia. I have nothing more to say on the topic.
My "true intentions" are advocating for a design that I like and that feels refreshing. Fantasy races don't have to be European. Period. End of story.
"Honestly reread your last paragraph and really think about what you typed - "appearance to be made more traditional", "aesthetics outside the norm". You may not mean it, but this comes across as extremely racist.'
I'm not but for you to consider it is incredibly insulting and I would consider that before you fall into any misguided conclusions.
Vandraad said:Elves as European or Elves as Asian doesnt matter. According to my Ogre friends, so long as they are still delicious they could care less what they look like. Taste is all that matters.
Lol. Well Elves are neither European nor Asian ofc, but they do have a certain look about them that is probably in part due to the Nordic/Germanic folklore that they come from. And - if Elves get changed to the point that you don’t recognize them anymore, then may as well just call it something else because that‘s what it is. Same holds true for the Dwarves and Halflings. If diversity is a concern, then give the humans more ‘diverse traits’ where it actually makes sense then.
Syrif said:Lol. Well Elves are neither European nor Asian ofc, but they do have a certain look about them that is probably due to the Nordic/Germanic folklore that they come from. And - if Elves get changed to the point that you don’t recognize them anymore, then may as well just call it something else because that‘s what it is. Same holds true for the Dwarves and Halflings. If diversity is a concern, then give the humans more ‘diverse traits’ where it actually makes sense then.
See this is the ridiculous part. The models in the screenshot VR displayed were easily recognizable as elves. Just because they have slightly different facial bone structure and an epicanthal fold doesn't mean they're suddenly unrecognizable as elves. They're pretty obviously elves. If an epicanthal fold bothers you so much, I wonder how you think about the variations on elf in Azeroth, the Kelari of Telara, the Altmer of Tamriel, and others. A very common depiction of "elves" in culture is of a race of tiny, red-cheeked, almost impish creatures, often sporting green hats. How dare the Pantheon elves not follow that aesthetic!
I also disagree with the apparent assumption that human models are the only models that should have racial diversity.
Syrif said:Vandraad said:Elves as European or Elves as Asian doesnt matter. According to my Ogre friends, so long as they are still delicious they could care less what they look like. Taste is all that matters.
Lol. Well Elves are neither European nor Asian ofc, but they do have a certain look about them that is probably due to the Nordic/Germanic folklore that they come from. And - if Elves get changed to the point that you don’t recognize them anymore, then may as well just call it something else because that‘s what it is. Same holds true for the Dwarves and Halflings. If diversity is a concern, then give the humans more ‘diverse traits’ where it actually makes sense then.
The Pantheon gnomes are wholly different than any other gnome I've seen in a game yet nobody seems to give a rats behind about it, so why all the vitriol about the elves? This whole conversation has really devolved into some disturbing alleys and really should be closed. Nothing good is going to come from this.
Vandraad said:The Pantheon gnomes are wholly different than any other gnome I've seen in a game yet nobody seems to give a rats behind about it, so why all the vitriol about the elves? This whole conversation has really devolved into some disturbing alleys and really should be closed. Nothing good is going to come from this.
Indeed. We should embrace creativity in developing various inhabitants of a fantasy world.
Some of us were discussing what we didn’t like about the change of appearance in the Ogres, Halflings, and Elves in this newsletter. Nothing was said about Gnomes or other races until you brought them up - I think they happen to look fine and fit well. Also, giving feedback on a newsletter should not be shut down simply because you disagree with some of it.
Anyway, imo - The ‘Elf-thing’ in the screenshot from this newsletter to me looks nothing like the Elf that we see under “Races” on the website. The Elf that has been shown on Pantheon’s website for quite some time looks very Elvish in everything from her facial structures to her decor of vine. This is feedback. Also, someone said the Ogres in screenshot look ‘Half-Orc’ all of sudden and I also thought the same. Also, as was mentioned about the Halflings and Fisher-Price, well..
Anyway, VR: I realize nothing is final yet, but some of the character models that have been shown just aren’t resonating. One of the reasons, imo, why Classic EQ was so adored is that the races were done very well - fitting in what they actually are. No reason it can’t be done here. Thanks.
Syrif said:The Elf that has been shown on Pantheon’s website for quite some time looks very Elvish in everything from her facial structures to her decor of vine.
I went back to doublecheck the elf concept art available on the race and class pages, and...
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/ranger/ranger-full.png
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/wizard/wizard-full.png
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/images/elf.png
It's pretty obvious they've been going for more asian facial features from the beginning.
@Naunet Thanks. That’s what I was referring to in my post, especially the last one which is the original. I think it looks quite a bit more Elvish than what I saw in the Newsletter‘s screenshot. Cheers.
Syrif said:@Naunet Thanks. That’s what I was referring to in my post, especially the last one which is the original. I think it looks quite a bit more Elvish than what I saw in the Newsletter‘s screenshot. Cheers.
I'm not really seeing much of a difference outside of the outfits. The concept art elves have distinctly asian features. The elves in the screenshot are wearing more rugged armor, but I think it's safe to assume that not all armor in the game is going to look elvish.
Now I do think that the quality of the facial textures and hair and such is lacking, and that is likely to improve as time goes on. But I definitely do not want VR to stray from their aesthetic vision of elves.
@Naunet Well, I suppose that’s where I disagree. As I’ve stated, I could clearly see Dark Elves, Silver/High Elves, Wood Elves, Half-Elves, Elves from LoTR, Warhammer, Forgotten Realms... all fitting within the genre of Elves quite well. I’m just not seeing it in the screenshots that were revealed and that’s probably why myself and others gave the feedback that we did on this thread. Nothing against ninjas, but the screenshot reminded me of a night ninja, I didn’t think Elf - that’s just what I saw. I think VR can do much better with the Elves of Terminus and I expect much to evolve between now and release. Cheers.
Vandraad said:Syrif said:Vandraad said:Elves as European or Elves as Asian doesnt matter. According to my Ogre friends, so long as they are still delicious they could care less what they look like. Taste is all that matters.
Lol. Well Elves are neither European nor Asian ofc, but they do have a certain look about them that is probably due to the Nordic/Germanic folklore that they come from. And - if Elves get changed to the point that you don’t recognize them anymore, then may as well just call it something else because that‘s what it is. Same holds true for the Dwarves and Halflings. If diversity is a concern, then give the humans more ‘diverse traits’ where it actually makes sense then.
The Pantheon gnomes are wholly different than any other gnome I've seen in a game yet nobody seems to give a rats behind about it, so why all the vitriol about the elves? This whole conversation has really devolved into some disturbing alleys and really should be closed. Nothing good is going to come from this.
Actually some, myself among then do have a problem with the Gnomes. I did express this in threads about the Gnome models. I'm all for VR doing there own take on their models. But the Gnomes are over the top going too far. That model is nothing Gnome like and I feel it should be an entirely new race. The model is fine, the lore if fine... but IMO the name "Gnome" should not be use for them.
In all mmo's I have played I create a Zorkon as a good player, then the opposite Nokroz as a bad for when i cant fin a group or juse want to solo a bit. Nokroz in EQ was a gnome Necro. Nokroz in Pantheon won't exist. I'm not playing that abomination and calling it a Gnome. It's a waste of a race that should be an opportunity to create something new.
As for elves as asians.. Did VR waste all there creativity on taking Gnomes to far that they have to steal from real life to make an Elf? They shouldn't be European, or Asian, or any other RL race... they should be ELVES and that gives them a lot of room to work.
@Zorkon Couldn‘t agree with you more.
Elves should just be in the realm of Elves as they have always been. It’s totally unnecessary for VR to push so much Asian (nor European for that matter) influence on Elves. Neither should be the guideline for Elves here, seriously. I’m not at all surprised to read about much of the disapproval of the Elvish appearance on here and on the original November Newsletter thread as well. Let Elves be Elves.. Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves, Half-Elves were all able to achieve that without having to come from an IRL culture. Ember and Ashen Elves shouldn’t look like they come so much from an IRL culture either.
Janus said:Now, what they should have and what I expect is the 'POSSIBILITY' to alter your character's appearance to look more Asian, not just Elves but Humans, Halflings etc as well. As long as Elves allow the option for appearance to be made more traditional, then aesthetics outside of the norm can easily be tolerated.
Well said Janus.
It is interesting to see this exchange in light of but one screenshot of the elven race. We all must understand that that screenshot was only one example created in the character creation generator. It seems un-wise to make assumptions without evaluating the full range of examples the current character creator can produce.
