zendrel said: I vote no AA. It's a trap. If you want the game to stay challenging don't do it. It just trivializes content turning the cap level people into unstoppable monsters. Basically the cap level areas will become easier and easier as more people gain AA points to the point where we have yet another solo play mmo. If you are cap level and want more content you should make an alt. If the game is challenging at low levels like promised then leveling a new toon should fulfill that itch.
Pretty much how I feel about it too. A lot of people want some kind of endless progression but personally I think if it takes a solid 6-9 months to just reach level cap (for average/non-power gamers) then there is plenty enough for one character. Then after hitting max you figure another 2-3 months to get geared out, then another few months to max a crafting skill, another couple months if you wanted to max factions, and anything else I am missing...at that point we'd likely be into the first expansion putting the character behind again so they are back to work on all the avenues of progress. If more progression is desired it can come from other characters (IMO obviously).
Iksar said:zendrel said: I vote no AA. It's a trap. If you want the game to stay challenging don't do it. It just trivializes content turning the cap level people into unstoppable monsters. Basically the cap level areas will become easier and easier as more people gain AA points to the point where we have yet another solo play mmo. If you are cap level and want more content you should make an alt. If the game is challenging at low levels like promised then leveling a new toon should fulfill that itch.
Pretty much how I feel about it too. A lot of people want some kind of endless progression but personally I think if it takes a solid 6-9 months to just reach level cap (for average/non-power gamers) then there is plenty enough for one character. Then after hitting max you figure another 2-3 months to get geared out, then another few months to max a crafting skill, another couple months if you wanted to max factions, and anything else I am missing...at that point we'd likely be into the first expansion putting the character behind again so they are back to work on all the avenues of progress. If more progression is desired it can come from other characters (IMO obviously).
I agree with this, for the most part - yet I still have always liked the idea of AA's, in that they help to customize your character if only a little bit.
Is there a way to create alternate advancement points that aren't so ...I dunno ...impactful to the gameplay? Points you could put into perks that you don't need to be a "better" player? I think about it in the same way that I think about a potential Cash Shop. In theory, having a cash shop that only sells cosmetic items that you can't attain through raids and progression, or simply silly little things that don't effect gameplay - this is something I'm OK with. Is there a way to follow that same theory, but for AA's?
Like, I dunno - Put 5 points in the "Flourish" AA tree and you get a different combat animation. 5 points in the "The Gain!" tree, and your biceps get a little bigger (lol). 5 points in the ""Wooing Wenches" tree gives you slightly better prices at vendors?
These would allow people who have rushed through content (because let's be honest, no matter how hard VR tries and I do believe they'll be pretty successful, there will still be plenty of folks twiddling their thumbs and waiting for the next expansion) to have something else to work towards without making it essential for competitive PvE gameplay.
What if there were a bunch of NPC's scattered around the world that offer micro-bonuses to qualified players, depending on how many levels they have attained? Some of these NPC's could be in hard to reach areas. Some could offer multiple bonuses or some might only offer one. The bonuses could be tied into specific elements of character progression including Class, Archetype, Race, Faction, Profession, Advanced Profession, Logistic, General, and more. Imagine hundreds of different variables that can be unlocked, say ... one per 2-5 levels? In order to unlock bonuses beyond the first 25 (assuming increments of 1 per 2 levels), you would need to reroll through progeny where the second character retains all of the bonuses from the previous character. In a nutshell, a theoretical Rites of Passage meets Progeny (with toggle in-tact). Some of these bonuses would be geared more towards PVE (Class/Archetype) and include things like small increases to threat generation from taunt, an extra point of agility being tied into a defensive stance, or increased weapon skill proficiency (+5 piercing, slashing, or crushing). Others would be geared towards crafting (Profession/Advance Profession) and include things like +5 forging skill, small chance of fuel not being consumed, slightly better chance at crafting a high quality product, etc.
Some bonuses could be themed around race (potential stat/resist upgrades or racial bonus amplifiers) or faction (recipes/components/items that are unique to a specific faction ... these could include items that are centered around PVE, crafting, harvesting, cosmetic, etc) General could include things like small movement speed bonuses, environmental acclimation, out of combat HP/MP regen, increased chance to harvest a rare material, unique lures/bait tied into fishing, etc. Logistics could include access keys to back-door entrances to a zone (a safe spot a little bit deeper into the zone than the starter area), attunement to a teleportation spire, or anything tied into mounts/boats/outposts. If there are literally hundreds of different variables to choose from, I think it would be safe to say that no player would ever unlock all of them. I understand the argument that some players would feel "forced" into choosing certain bonuses, but we aren't talking about anything game-breaking.
It's possible that most players would try to unlock all of the class/archetype bonuses first, and I think that's fine. At the same time, some of the other bonuses could be pretty helpful and at the very least warrant some consideration which means if most people do try and follow some sort of cookie cutter path, those who divert will bring something more ... semi-unique to the table. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to craft a set of ceremonial Elven Garb (racial cosmetic gear) that is otherwise locked behind this bonus? If most people pass on this option, you can create a nice little niche market for yourself. What about an exclusive combination of bait/lure that could be used to catch a really rare species of fish (that in turn is a component to a recipe that gives a nice stat bonus)? You probably aren't going to get rich by being an advanced miner, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to be more proficient in this area than other players who chose a different path.
Having back-door access to a dungeon isn't going to make you more powerful but it would certainly be nice to have a player with that bonus in your group when you're near that dungeon (assuming the key would be shared with the group). Attuning to a teleporation spire would come at a cost as well ... hopefully these will be limited in general, but if you DO want to attune to them, you have to choose that over a min/max component ... or come back later when you have finished up whatever other bonuses you prioritize. I am one of those players that would love to see a game with near endless progression. I am a huge fan of AA systems but admit that they contribute toward end-game bottlenecks. I would much rather see a system like this where players are encouraged to continue re-leveling and contribute toward the well established benefits that have been associated with progeny.
It would take quite a bit of work to balance all of this but the end-goal would be to create a vast array of micro-bonuses that each feel meaningful, but even if you did manage to get ALL of them, you wouldn't be OP. The cap for PVE bonuses could be as limited as necessary but the majority of bonuses would be tied into other aspects of the game ... think more horizontal than vertical. If some players do it ONLY for the limited vertical progression, so be it ... the world will still benefit from them re-leveling. Ideally there would be a little bit of something in there for everybody. Before someone goes nuts about the PVE bonuses, keep in mind it's entirely possible that some guilds might "require" players to unlock ANY combination of bonuses. I'm hoping that argument can be avoided because at the end of the day, players/guild can impose whatever restrictions they want. They could tell you that you have to have your epic weapon as a prerequisite to joining ... does that mean we shouldn't have epic weapons? Anyway, these are my thoughts on an "AA" type system that doesn't need to be focused on "end-game." There are tons and tons of possibilities that weren't even touched on here.
I've never experienced an AA system, and after reading various opinions here, I like the idea of staying away from calling the system "AA" at first and dressing it up as something else (like a rep grind). Like in oneADseven's idea about secret entrances, it could be tied to a rep grind where an NCP eventually attunes you to entering through that way. And maybe gaining the rep for that secret entrance locks you out of gaining rep for some other secret entrance, so there is a choice in which bonus you want to provide, but there's no "wrong" choice. (Unless there're only a handful on dungeons/raids people care about, but that's a separate issue to tackle).
I think the major concern to look out for with any AA system is how it looks to new players coming into the game. We'll need a healthy flow of new people to keep the game successful, and I don't want them to think they're too late to the party.
I would much prefer a customization system that is not introduced at level-cap. Those tend to be time sinks used to get players to redo the same content over and over. Content that becomes trivial since it was designed to be done without the level-cap bonuses.
I would prefer going back to the older system in CRPGs - have customization options at every level or every few levels starting very early in a character's life. That way we don't need to wait until level X to be different from every other character of our class, and the content can be designed to be challenging for us with the extra abilities since we all will have them at-level.
Very important to me - it encourages replayability even with the same class. Just making up the details out of whole cloth - I can play a class specialized as an archer from level one and then play the same class specialized as a pet class from level one and it will feel different - whereas if the differences are only given at level-cap .... total waste of time I would need to play the first 40 or 50 or 75 levels using the identical mechanics.
dorotea said:I would much prefer a customization system that is not introduced at level-cap. Those tend to be time sinks used to get players to redo the same content over and over. Content that becomes trivial since it was designed to be done without the level-cap bonuses.
I would prefer going back to the older system in CRPGs - have customization options at every level or every few levels starting very early in a character's life. That way we don't need to wait until level X to be different from every other character of our class, and the content can be designed to be challenging for us with the extra abilities since we all will have them at-level.
Very important to me - it encourages replayability even with the same class. Just making up the details out of whole cloth - I can play a class specialized as an archer from level one and then play the same class specialized as a pet class from level one and it will feel different - whereas if the differences are only given at level-cap .... total waste of time I would need to play the first 40 or 50 or 75 levels using the identical mechanics.
Can someone make a pro/con list for this kind of thing, because as far as I can tell the only pro is a feeling (illusion) of uniqueness? I see a lot of people talking about how they want to be different from every other character of their class but I don't think I have seen a single game in which that held true. Any options for class customization/segregation that I have ever seen boils down to a universally accepted (and expected) best path, especially for tanking/healing roles.
I will focus on the pros - Gods know enough other people throw out enough purported negatives often just meaning "I don't like it". That doesn't mean you, Iksar you didn't throw out any negatives just asked for a list.
1. Being able to play a class differently. Usually different people have different preferences, and people will enjoy a class more if they get to customize it to reduce use of skills they dislike and increase the importance of skills they enjoy using. With respect, saying that this is meaningless because there is always a "universally accepted" option is VERY far from being true. Nothing in any game is universal or all that close to it, not if the game is played by humans. And outside of highly focused raiders MOST of us play the way we enjoy more even if it isn't quite as "uber".
2. Being able to make the same class optimum for one set of conditions with one customization and a different set of conditions with another. A fire mage won't be prevented from getting a group to kill Baldur the fire giant if she can switch to ice mage for that group. Alternatively, from the group's perspective, even if customizations are permanent the group won't be prevented from having a mage if there are both fire and ice mages in the world. This point is especially relevant to Pantheon.
3. Replayability as mentioned above. Someone that enjoys a mage can play two different mages in two different ways. I mention mages again just to keep it simple - the same concept applies to all classes and all roles.
I don't see how anyone can seriously get "illusion of uniqueness" out of any of this. I have no interest in illusions. I am Dorotea not Mara. It is the *reality* of having two or more distinct ways of playing a class that I want (all limited to the same role).
4. Being different from other people in the same class not having us all cookie-cutter the same. This is important to some people but I consider this the weakest reason to have a customization system. I don't simply want to avoid all mages being identical for the sake of *feeling* different, I want distinct playstyles so I can choose the style I enjoy more or have two of the class and enjoy them both.
If designers provide horizontal customisation of a class and people feel driven down a particular path then either that customisation wasn't horizontal enough (some were obviously more 'powerful' than others) or some paths weren't interesting enough (some were plain boring, so even if they suited a playstyle, they didn't get chosen). The concept of specialisation isn't bad just because some games have not done it well.
There will always be min-maxers that will take a particular customisation choice because it gives a statistical 0.1% efficiency improvement. You can't stop that. If others' blindly follow that *shrug* what can developers do except attempt to design all options 'equally'?
You could call horizontal customisation the 'illusion' of difference I suppose, if you are reducing a character to it's statistical combat log output, because, of course, decent horizontal progression would be actively trying to *not* make one choice more overall 'powerful' than another.
In any complex game (and most MMORPGs count I'm sure) there should be a variety of playstyles (perferred by players rather than dictated by class) that are viable. I for one would love some in-class customisation (that's what I see as the best Alternative Advancement) but I'm happy to see it be 'illusory' and 'horizontal'. If I can tailor my class to suit my flavour, it will have an effect on the 'fun' I have, it doesn't have to make me 'more powerful' at all to be very worthwhile.
However I'm sure VR will be building in some AA that won't be end-game and will therefore be part of the power progression and I'm sure will change actual ability, not just flavour. They will have to be careful to make it balanced, but *shrug* if every wizard turns out to be fire based, that might just be an aesthetic choice, not min-maxing and a failure of the balancing.
As with nearly all of VR's design choices, they have the obvious pressure to put everything in because most things are great if they are done well hehe. No pressure guys! I'm pretty sure we know there will be 'specialisation' which will be at least two flavours of each class. Whether or not there is further horizontal or vertical AA as those classes progress is up for grabs still? I hope there will be.
For example, maybe a Wizard at level 20 chooses Volcanic or Storm and over the next 20 levels chooses minor variations in spell effects on top of that, then at 40 chooses Fire or Earth (after Volcanic) and Air or Water (after Storm) then at 60 chooses Control or Destruction variants of their element, who knows, whatever, I'm making it up, but I think it'd be great. Sure, it'd be hard to balance. How good should they be at the stuff they didn't choose? Will they have access to those abilities at all? Would that exclude them from some content? Good luck VR! But don't exclude ideas just because others havn't gotten it right.
dorotea said:I will focus on the pros - Gods know enough other people throw out enough purported negatives often just meaning "I don't like it". That doesn't mean you, Iksar you didn't throw out any negatives just asked for a list.
1. Being able to play a class differently. Usually different people have different preferences, and people will enjoy a class more if they get to customize it to reduce use of skills they dislike and increase the importance of skills they enjoy using. With respect, saying that this is meaningless because there is always a "universally accepted" option is VERY far from being true. Nothing in any game is universal or all that close to it, not if the game is played by humans. And outside of highly focused raiders MOST of us play the way we enjoy more even if it isn't quite as "uber".
2. Being able to make the same class optimum for one set of conditions with one customization and a different set of conditions with another. A fire mage won't be prevented from getting a group to kill Baldur the fire giant if she can switch to ice mage for that group. Alternatively, from the group's perspective, even if customizations are permanent the group won't be prevented from having a mage if there are both fire and ice mages in the world. This point is especially relevant to Pantheon.
3. Replayability as mentioned above. Someone that enjoys a mage can play two different mages in two different ways. I mention mages again just to keep it simple - the same concept applies to all classes and all roles.
I don't see how anyone can seriously get "illusion of uniqueness" out of any of this. I have no interest in illusions. I am Dorotea not Mara. It is the *reality* of having two or more distinct ways of playing a class that I want (all limited to the same role).
4. Being different from other people in the same class not having us all cookie-cutter the same. This is important to some people but I consider this the weakest reason to have a customization system. I don't simply want to avoid all mages being identical for the sake of *feeling* different, I want distinct playstyles so I can choose the style I enjoy more or have two of the class and enjoy them both.
Is it not enough to just have the classes be the specialization/playstyle difference? If Cleric isn't to ones playstyle/liking they can go Druid or Shaman etc. I imagine only a minuscule percentage of players ever level (or want to level) the same class twice regardless of specs/AA, and without those there is no reason to do so. Some classes are optimal for some content/conditions and others are optimal for others, but breaking up class identity so each can split off in whatever directional focus seems wrong to me.
If the customization is important enough that a fire mage would be notably better vs a frost boss than a frost mage, then that frost mage's grouping options for that content would be considerably less. No longer would a group just be looking for a mage but now they want the right kind of mage. If the frost mage could just use the base fire spells and be nearly as efficient as a fire mage then the customization is more just an illusion of choice. Basically why have the two kinds of mage when you could have the single mage with a strong class identity that does both and the individual player could focus their action set more towards whichever they prefer? Like the ranger example you used previously: you could load up your bar and focus most of your time on being an archer or load up on pet focused abilities and spend most of your time being a pet class, or perhaps you fancy doing a little of both and have a combination.
How would one go about offering even 2 different specs for something like Cleric/Shaman/Druid? Their role is healing so both specs would have to be centered around healing and it wouldn't take long to find out which is the best for the most content. If they had a heal spec and something else then they are "gimping" themselves if they ever pick the non-heal spec, or healing is a joke and high level content is so easy the boosted healing isn't needed and THAT is the "gimp" spec.
Balancing is much easier when you can look at a class and say "okay, these things are what a cleric can do" instead of breaking each class down into two+ different versions and having to design content so that each side of each class can complete it without needing to be carried by others (pretty sure they don't want any content that can't be done by any particular classes). But if both specs can complete any content anyway then would that not suggest that the customization is more just an illusion of being different because the power shift within each class is insignificant toward the outcome?
tldr: If (by some miracle) all specialization options for each class was equally viable/able to do all content then why not instead just have the classes be a single complete kit with a strong class identity?
@Iksar
You can do exactly that ... while still allowing classes to be multi-faceted. We went over all of this (balancing, customization, spec desirability, eliminating cookie-cutters, role adherance, etc) ad nauseum in the dual specialization thread. Your biggest issue (from what I recall) is that you didn't want to put in the time/effort required to unlock the "master class." You want a complete ranger when you level to 50. I don't. I'd rather see a game where people have to put a bunch of time and effort into unlocking all that their class has to offer that extends far beyond the initial leveling phase.
My recommendation:
AA's yes
Do like EQ1, and have them unlock at a certain level near or at level cap
Do like EQ1 and add a few new ones each expansion
Make them reversable though, so as teh game 'evolves', people can reallocate their points where most beneficial. This allows the 'less hardcore' players to have an easier time for the AA they need most.
Make AA exp slow down the more you AA you earn. This reduces the degree of separation between the less hardcore and more hardcore, but still keeps the carrot on the end of teh stick for the hardcore.
Make AA visable to all players, like player level
I'm a HUGE fan of the AA system and it's a big reason I kept coming back to EQ. Also gives you a reason to go out and group in an effort to better your character. Otherwise the only option is to improve through gear which ultimately gets completely replaced once a new expansion comes out.
>How would one go about offering even 2 different specs for something like Cleric/Shaman/Druid? Their role is healing so both specs would have to be centered around healing and it wouldn't take long to find out which is the best for the most content. If they had a heal spec and something else then they are "gimping" themselves if they ever pick the non-heal spec, or healing is a joke and high level content is so easy the boosted healing isn't needed and THAT is the "gimp" spec. <
Have the class only get heal specs. We don't want roles to be broken. With the caveat that the class should also be able to fight, not be like the Midgard healer in DAOC that could barely kill a gray con mob.
Have all specs get basic heals but let one get more powerful direct heals, one get better heals-over-time and one specialize in wards that keep damage from being suffered.
Or have one spec wear heavy armor and do some of its healing by hitting enemies and another be a ranged caster healing by ...casting heals.
Or have one spec focus more on slow casting but more powerful heals and another on weaker but instant cast heals.
Or have one spec able to use wands but be less powerful with cast heals.
Or let one spec be a direct healer and another do some direct healing but have a healing pet with some group heals and buffs.
Or ....enough I am not recommending any of these just saying that customization is very possible with no breaking of the boundaries between roles.
And if one spec proves to be distinctly inferior and almost no serious raider takes it - well how are we worse off than if there was no choice to begin with? Many non serious raiders will still take it if they find it more *fun* for their personal style of play.
I wasn't going to argue the point - I figured if VR reads this they don't need to see the same argument twice and if they do not read it, nothing we say matters. But you made the tactical error (actually I'm just kidding here) and asked a *question*. Answering a question isn't arguing ((chuckles)). I'm just sorry I hadn't noticed the question when it was posted.
I've commented about AA before that rather than "alternate" advancement, why is it not just advancement?
To elaborate more on that, say after a set level they want to add horizonal character development, I’m fine with that. But please do not make me decide how much experience one way or another to devote. If you want to give people ways to improve characters, then add it from level on and just balance your character’s experience to level requirements around that, then rewards advancement skills to spend.
Say the game caps at level 50 at launch, then the next expansion adds AA and increases the cap to 60. Just make the 50-60 experience gain balanced in a way that progresses the alternate advancement without switching back and forth, and reward a set amount of AA points per level or something.
ESO has added an alternate advancement system but it's account wide instead of being character specific. Each character on your account has the same number of points but they can apply them into whatever AA path they feel would be most beneficial. Would an account wide system work in Pantheon or should alternate advancement systems be character specific?
How do you think the alternate advancement system should tie into the progeny system? Should your progeny receive some or all of your AA points?
Should the developers be concered with power creep? What about catch-up mechanics for new players joining a year or two after the AA system is implemented?
WoW has recently added an alternate advancement system this expension with class weapons and legendary items. The pros of a system like this is that after a new expansion releases you can retire the items you've been leveling up and collecting. This is an interesting way to avoid power creep and it would give the developers freedom to experiment/adjust the AA system expansion to expansion. Maybe something more akin to a season in Diablo III. Cosmetics and titles could reward those that progressed their AA when the expansion was relevant but everyone would be at equal power when a new expansion launched.
Valdora said:ESO has added an alternate advancement system but it's account wide instead of being character specific. Each character on your account has the same number of points but they can apply them into whatever AA path they feel would be most beneficial. Would an account wide system work in Pantheon or should alternate advancement systems be character specific?
How do you think the alternate advancement system should tie into the progeny system? Should your progeny receive some or all of your AA points?
Should the developers be concered with power creep? What about catch-up mechanics for new players joining a year or two after the AA system is implemented?
WoW has recently added an alternate advancement system this expension with class weapons and legendary items. The pros of a system like this is that after a new expansion releases you can retire the items you've been leveling up and collecting. This is an interesting way to avoid power creep and it would give the developers freedom to experiment/adjust the AA system expansion to expansion. Maybe something more akin to a season in Diablo III. Cosmetics and titles could reward those that progressed their AA when the expansion was relevant but everyone would be at equal power when a new expansion launched.
The problem with AA'style of progression, is you make them a long LONG mandatory catchup for everyone that didn't begin the "train" as soon as it started, and it becomes a gate before content as highly trained AA begins to put some limitations on "Raid open, 250 AA minimal". During my PoP play era, I remember gaining around 1 AA every TWO HOURS of group play while grinding in Bastion of thunders. That means 250 AA were worth 500 hours of play which was totally impossible for me. Of course when you could get raid geared parties in PoFire you could grind up to 1 AA every 30 min, making the 5000 hours a still unrealistic amount of 125, still monstruous (and requiring heavy raid gear or parties accepting your despite your low gear, thus only possible for DPS or control) while slowing down the whole party of "big geared people".
What wow thought was good, was bringing catchups along the road making the first points an easy grind, beeing pushed further every few months, but it heavily devaluate what people grinded before, and is thus a really marginal system only working because they wipe everything once the xpac is done (making every class loose their precious long grind benefits, really disappointing).
ESO system seems better, in a way, but the "gate" still occcurs with people kicking non 720 champion level groupmates. Of course the game beeing really crappy on the social aspect, with multi guilds, account wide things and such, it doesn't fit in the grand pantheon scheme, and for now instead of AA grind I would prefer rare quests/farms for special skills or spells, like Aegolism was during EQ era, but withouth the possibility to sell or even Multiquest the item (because now on P99, rare high level spells are just farmed by big parties and sold for a ton of platinium).
Edit because I suck at "wake up maths" :p
MauvaisOeil said:During my PoP play era, I remember gaining around 1 AA every TWO HOURS of group play while grinding in Bastion of thunders. That means 250 AA were worth 5000 hours of play which was totally impossible for me. Of course when you could get raid geared parties in PoFire you could grind up to 1 AA every 30 min, making the 5000 hours a still unrealistic amount of 1250, still monstruous (and requiring heavy raid gear or parties accepting your despite your low gear, thus only possible for DPS or control) while slowing down the whole party of "big geared people"..
That math is off by an order of magnitude. 250 AA at 1 AA per 2 hours is a total of 500 hours, not 5,000. Likewise, 250 AA at 1 AA per 30 minutes is a total of 125 hours, not 1,250.
And yeah, that's still a long time.
But I think you can avoid the pitfall you're worried about (raids requiring a certain level of AA) by making the costs increase geometrically. This still gives max level players a sense of advancement, but really stretches out the time between those advancements as they fill everything in.
Imagine an AA system that works by having a perk for each stat (e.g. Strength) and each skill (e.g. One-Handed Swords) where each level of the perk raises the stat or skill by 1 point, and costs twice as much xp as the previous level of that perk, with level 1 always costing whatever the xp cost was to go from level 49 to level 50 (assuming 50 is the first level cap). Let's pretend that turns out to be 1 million xp. Imagine also that a dedicated player with access to a good group can gain 1 million xp in an hour (probably a terrible estimate, but it's easy to do math on).
In such a system, you can get +5 Strengh in 31 hours, but getting +20 Strength would take over 1 million hours. Players who have been at level cap for 10,000 hours of gameplay might have +13 Strength - but that's only if they never spent any of their AA to increase One-Handed Swords.
I have been a consistent proponant of almost any form of customization but I agree with MauvaisOeil's general point if not the math.
While an AA system that kicks in at maximum level has some advantages these are real disadvantages especially the difficulty for a character getting to level-cap getting into groups.
Wouldn't a system that gives AA points (this is an AA thread so I won't mention any other possible ways to customize) every level or every few levels or every 5 levels have a few significant advantages.
1. If the customization makes a character more fun to play, why wait on the fun until level-cap? Gods willing (yes that means VR) level-cap will take a long time with no real shorcuts.
2. If customization starts at level-cap content designed to be playable for new level-caps will be trivial for characters with a lot of AA (as correctly pointed out repeatedly in this thread by others). But if characters gain AAs as they level content will be designed for them having AAs already.
The only real benefit to waiting until level-cap to introduce AAs is to use the system to keep people playing once they hit top level and provide a major time sink for bored level-caps. This is an important advantage I do not understate it and VR doing this would be entirely rational. But there are other ways to have time sinks at level-cap (the traditional hunt for marginally better gear or cosmetics or mounts or festival rewards or titles or ....) and I would prefer a system that lets us customize much earlier in life.
MauvaisOeil said:
The problem with AA'style of progression, is you make them a long LONG mandatory catchup for everyone that didn't begin the "train" as soon as it started, and it becomes a gate before content as highly trained AA begins to put some limitations on "Raid open, 250 AA minimal". During my PoP play era, I remember gaining around 1 AA every TWO HOURS of group play while grinding in Bastion of thunders. That means 250 AA were worth 500 hours of play which was totally impossible for me. Of course when you could get raid geared parties in PoFire you could grind up to 1 AA every 30 min, making the 5000 hours a still unrealistic amount of 125, still monstruous (and requiring heavy raid gear or parties accepting your despite your low gear, thus only possible for DPS or control) while slowing down the whole party of "big geared people".
What wow thought was good, was bringing catchups along the road making the first points an easy grind, beeing pushed further every few months, but it heavily devaluate what people grinded before, and is thus a really marginal system only working because they wipe everything once the xpac is done (making every class loose their precious long grind benefits, really disappointing).
ESO system seems better, in a way, but the "gate" still occcurs with people kicking non 720 champion level groupmates. Of course the game beeing really crappy on the social aspect, with multi guilds, account wide things and such, it doesn't fit in the grand pantheon scheme, and for now instead of AA grind I would prefer rare quests/farms for special skills or spells, like Aegolism was during EQ era, but withouth the possibility to sell or even Multiquest the item (because now on P99, rare high level spells are just farmed by big parties and sold for a ton of platinium).
Edit because I suck at "wake up maths" :p
What I think is interesting here is that players don't like long catch-up mechanics - they create barriers for new players/make it hard to roll alts - but we also don't like loosing our individual progression. I guess the solution is having catch-up mechanics built into the system from it's inception (not 2-3 years down the road when the problem is more egregious).
If there are catch-up mechanics designed into the system can an AA system that's account-wide, like with ESO, work in Pantheon? Of course leave out all the other flaws ESO has - but at least with an account wide progression - creating an alt is far less painful of an experience.
Like you pointed out above whenever you create a system like this there are going to be groups of people that ask for 250+AA or 720+ champion points to join their group -effectively gating off content to new players regardless of their skill. Doesn't WoW's system allow for meaningful progression, while the content is still relevant, while preventing too much power-creep/catch up required over longer periods of time? Is possession of AA points that hard to give up when a new chapter of the game is released? Is it that hard to say goodbye to them? What if you were given titles/cosmetics/achievements in their place? Wouldn't it be easier to design new content if everyone started out on an equal playing field? Wouldn't it be easier to create alts and have new players join?
Perhaps a hybrid of permanent unlocks essential to the class that are easier to obtain and then expansion-specific unlocks that are grindier, maybe slightly more powerful, but then retire once new content is released? It could even be done seasonally instead of being tied to an expansion - say every six months - perhaps corresponding with some big overarching in-game event like a planar invasion that temporarily brings mystical eneriges from that plane into our own.
I LOVED EQ AAs, they didn't trivialize the game at all. In fact, very few AAs were required to raid because they didn't change a whole lot. Sure they made the lower level stuff really easy, but the at level stuff was still not easy at all. I think AAs made the game amazing, giving abilities special effects to make them from "meh, i might use that" into "man, this is awesome". Some got carried away with too much, like the ranger headshot and instantly killing stuff, it was a little overboard, but for the most part there weren't that many abilities like that. Basically, they helped define classes, especially shadow knights. They finally got liked after a few select AA's because their mana pool was so low it really hurt their playstyle since they relied on it. Then AA's came out that changed the actual need to burn all your mana on a tough fight, and a few spells that made lifetapping a little more cost effective.
But AAs changed the dynamics of the game, but in no way trivialized the gameplay.
I never actually played EQ, but did play a lot of EQOA, and generally really liked its version of the AA system (called class mastery). It allowed the player to purchase a wide array of passive and active abilities, and also allowed each class to specialize into a subclass of the player's choice. The subclasses, however, did not go so far as to change the general role of the class. For example, a warrior could specialize and become either a defender or a hero. Defenders were the quintessential defensive tanks, able to tank the biggest raid bosses. Heroes, on the other hand, were more balanced between offense and defense, but still perfectly well-suited to tank normal group content. So even though they were more "offensive tanks," they were still tanks, not dps. Overall, I felt the system let you customize your character to fit your playstyle without actually blurring the lines between archetypes.
In short, I'm definitely in favor of Pantheon having an AA-like system that allows for character customization, as long as it doesn't mush the archetypes together. What exactly that system should look like, I'll leave to more imaginative minds.
dorotea said:Wouldn't a system that gives AA points .. every level or every few levels or every 5 levels have a few significant advantages.
One significant advantage I see in having an AA system that **only** allows you to increase stats and skills is that every character already has access to those advantages every level; they can increase their stats by clicking buttons, and they can increase their skills to the new cap through use.
I'm not sure if others agree, but I think it's actually a bad thing if the AA system allows you access to entirely new non-class abilities like Feign Death for Paladins.
With new information available on what people like about AAs I have to refer to something I said in my earlier post in more detail.
Why does a significant portion of character growth need to start upon hitting level 50? Why can't the whole game happen during the inital leveling phase, so that the leveling phase becomes 'most of the game' and not 'half or less of the game'?
Offer horizontal, quality of life progression all day without many level restrictions. This works as our band aid and also for letting people spend as much time as possible earning things on one character if that is what they do. Where it makes sense lore/logicwise, why not let a character spend more time, and still have things to do, at level 30 if they so desire?
Also Epic abilities and other unique rewards from sources beyond levels are fantastic...But I see no need to make them happen ONLY at level 50, or attach them to something weird like AAs instead of something much more fun like quests.
I just don't see why level 50 content should ultimately end up with a ton of players in it because there's just so dang much to do at level 50, compared to level 30. I especially don't like overcomplicating things by adding tiers to level 50, so one level 50 can access content another cannot, because of character strength. We will have plenty of that already with the attunement/gear systems.
Finally, I don't understand the argument for vertical progression AAs giving "more to do on one character"/"more unique characters". As has been mentioned before, vertical progression can take just as long, and offer as few or as many character defining choices as you want, no matter if it comes from levels, or aas, (which are essentially just levels if they offer any sort of vertical progression).
Shouldn't hitting level 50 MEAN class mastery? Can't you have already made your choices regarding class specialization by that point?