Gyldervane said:I never actually played EQ, but did play a lot of EQOA, and generally really liked its version of the AA system (called class mastery). It allowed the player to purchase a wide array of passive and active abilities, and also allowed each class to specialize into a subclass of the player's choice. The subclasses, however, did not go so far as to change the general role of the class. For example, a warrior could specialize and become either a defender or a hero. Defenders were the quintessential defensive tanks, able to tank the biggest raid bosses. Heroes, on the other hand, were more balanced between offense and defense, but still perfectly well-suited to tank normal group content. So even though they were more "offensive tanks," they were still tanks, not dps. Overall, I felt the system let you customize your character to fit your playstyle without actually blurring the lines between archetypes.
In short, I'm definitely in favor of Pantheon having an AA-like system that allows for character customization, as long as it doesn't mush the archetypes together. What exactly that system should look like, I'll leave to more imaginative minds.
I would be thrilled to see an AA system similar to how CM worked in EQOA.
BeaverBiscuit said:With new information available on what people like about AAs I have to refer to something I said in my earlier post in more detail.
Why does a significant portion of character growth need to start upon hitting level 50? Why can't the whole game happen during the inital leveling phase, so that the leveling phase becomes 'most of the game' and not 'half or less of the game'?
Offer horizontal, quality of life progression all day without many level restrictions. This works as our band aid and also for letting people spend as much time as possible earning things on one character if that is what they do. Where it makes sense lore/logicwise, why not let a character spend more time, and still have things to do, at level 30 if they so desire?
Also Epic abilities and other unique rewards from sources beyond levels are fantastic...But I see no need to make them happen ONLY at level 50, or attach them to something weird like AAs instead of something much more fun like quests.
I just don't see why level 50 content should ultimately end up with a ton of players in it because there's just so dang much to do at level 50, compared to level 30. I especially don't like overcomplicating things by adding tiers to level 50, so one level 50 can access content another cannot, because of character strength. We will have plenty of that already with the attunement/gear systems.
Finally, I don't understand the argument for vertical progression AAs giving "more to do on one character"/"more unique characters". As has been mentioned before, vertical progression can take just as long, and offer as few or as many character defining choices as you want, no matter if it comes from levels, or aas, (which are essentially just levels if they offer any sort of vertical progression).
Shouldn't hitting level 50 MEAN class mastery? Can't you have already made your choices regarding class specialization by that point?
The way I always saw this, was if every AA was available at say, level 10. I could much more easily get them then if they were at the max end. In EQ you could still solo, a little, at level 10, meaning i could easily achieve every AA at this point with or without a group. But the level 50 AAs were difficult because you could still solo, but it was so much less reliable than a full group.
That being said I also liked EQ2's AA's. Where you basically got AA exp for killing nameds for the first time and stuff like that. I had actually ran around farming nameds after this change so I could get some easy AAs, and it was nice seeing what was dropped and all that stuff.
The only difference, was I was done with EQ2 AAs pretty quickly, whereas i didn't even get max AAs until like 2 or 3 expansions after Planes of Power, it took forever because there was so many, which made grouping still a requirement, so the game was pretty much never ending. I can't say I ever logged in and said, "I've got nothing to do today"
I'm not saying AA's are a required system for me either. I enjoyed it, but as long as there is something to do after hitting max than JUST raiding, then I'll be happy. AA's were more about content than anything.
The way I always saw this, was if every AA was available at say, level 10. I could much more easily get them then if they were at the max end. In EQ you could still solo, a little, at level 10, meaning i could easily achieve every AA at this point with or without a group. But the level 50 AAs were difficult because you could still solo, but it was so much less reliable than a full group.
Except an AA was one lvl 50 worth of xp, which was 37.97 times more than the lvl 10. That means even soloing, you would never really fill thoses AA...
BeaverBiscuit said:Why does a significant portion of character growth need to start upon hitting level 50?
For my part, it's not about "starting" any kind of growth at 50, it's about "not stopping" growth at 50. I really don't want to see AAs that open up entirely new, non-class skills, spells, or abilities, but I'd love to be able to continue getting skill points, even if the cost grew exponentially.
Thought I would give my 2 coppers on this old topic.
I don't know about AAs. I can see them being fun and not being fun. In EQ1 they were pretty fun, but made alot of things trivial when you had like a thousand AAs. Also, if this game is planning on having players wanting to start alts, or use the progeny system, then AA's will probably deter that. So for the beginning of the game and even maybe the first few expansions I am against AAs. Later on though if you can allow AAs to not be too overpowered, then sure. I liked in EQ1 how a lot of AAs improved quality of life, like better crafting, the innate metabolism...lol, I think run speed, and a some group buffs that did the same thing has some of your single target buffs. I think those are fine and safe to do while not making it too op. A few different abilities from AAs could be fine also, but the stat increasing and some of the insane abilities some classes had, IE mana burn, trueshot, 6 mage pets or something like that, and some other I probably can't remember I think need to be carefully evaluated.
Watemper said:In EQ1 [AAs] were pretty fun, but made alot of things trivial when you had like a thousand AAs.
I'm probably already guilty of posting too much in this thread, but...
Another advantage of having AAs **only** increase stats and skills is that VR **could choose** to let the advantage gradually fade when the level cap was again increased.
Imagine you're level 50 and you've already maxed out your One-Handed Sword skill to 250 (assuming 5 points per level). You play a lot, and gradually spend AAs to increase your skill to 257. Then they release an expansion which raises the level cap to 55. When you ding to level 51, your "soft" cap of One-Handed Sword increases to 255, but you've already got 257 so you're good. When you ding 52, your soft cap increases to 260, so you only need to go from 257 to 260 through use. At that point, you don't have any more advantages than anyone else who's 52.
Assuming the costs I outlined above... When you ding 60, you start earning AAs again, but spending them to increase your One-Handed Sword skill resets so you're buying Rank 1 again, rather than working forever on Rank 8. And it's important to keep in mind that it would take over 3,000 years of non-stop play to buy Rank 25 of AA One-Handed Sword skill, so no one's ever going to have already bought more skill via AA than would become available via a 5-level cap increase.
The way I see it, this still gives players a sense of advancement while they're at level cap, but doesn't result in weird imbalances.
That seems interesting, but only for those types of skills. I remember stuff like trueshot for rangers, which was a must, and other pretty powerful AA abilities. I was a Beastlord and needed kitty crack or else I couldn't get a group at all. Also there were AAs for base stats, I think like 4 AAs into one base stat raised it by 1 or something. This got out of hand quickly. I also don't see how they can trivialize this unless the gear you get can max out your stats regardless of how many AAs you get. Which will either then make the gear pointless or the aas pointless. It's not a healthy design to make something end game pointless.
I am not saying that I am against AAs, but they need to be careful how they implement it, and should wait a few expansions until they release it.
Nihimon said:I'm probably already guilty of posting too much in this thread, but...
Snip
And it's important to keep in mind that it would take over 3,000 years of non-stop play to buy Rank 25 of AA One-Handed Sword skill, so no one's ever going to have already bought more skill via AA than would become available via a 5-level cap increase.
The way I see it, this still gives players a sense of advancement while they're at level cap, but doesn't result in weird imbalances.
You haven't posted too much until Kilsin says so! Passion is good=)
so you're calling for increases so small they are basically insignificant, but still give a sense of character growth?
So long as they remain insignificant, even with progeny bonuses in mind, I have no problem with this! It's alot like offering horizontal quality of life AAs, which I believe can enrich the game and separate some xp from leveling so it's not quite so daunting for new players.
Still though, it makes more sense for me for these insignificant progression AAs to be available at any level, if a guy wants to be level 30 for 3,000 years but still feel like he's progressing somehow, I say let him!
I absolutely loved AA's in EQ! MGB :)
I skimmed the first couple of posts and saw someone mention something about "certain dmg types." Admittedly I didn't read much more than that in the post, but it took me immediately to something I'd love to see in an AA tree. The ability to choose a particular bonus dmg against a certain mob type. However, you are limited to that one bonus dmg type and can not specialize in another, instead the others grey out in your tree. It would be nice to have a title become available once you completely finish that particular dmg tree as well, such as "Playername, the Wraithsbane" or "Wraith Hunter Playername" etc., etc. It could and should of course be coupled with you must kill X amount of that particular creature type before you truly become their bane. I am assuming this would be something that could only be achieved after max character level.
It seems like I remember something like this in one of the games I played, but tbh everything after EQ was just a time filler and even though I tried them they just didn't hold my attention or interest for a long enough period of time.
This or something similar may have been posted by someone else already, but I dont have time atm to read 7 pages of posts to check. If so, I'm sorry if I am just repeating someone else:)