I'm mixed on AA.
Originally, I loved AA because it gave you a lot of new options. Monks who can run faster for pulling, etc.
It's really another form of vertical advancement, and I'm a much bigger fan of horizontal advancement. In EQ1, it's just another carrot to make you reach higher. A little more crit chance. Ok, a little more next expansion. Oh, a little more next expansion. etc. It'll never end, and it turns into a total grindfest.
It then becomes difficult for casuals or anyone who has ever taken a break to be able to "catch up," and it really only becomes a tool to become excluded from groups and content. I'm not saying EQ's current method is the answer, but I do kind of like how it at least catches you up (based on your level) in AA up to 3 expansions back. This way, your friend can start playing and level up and still be close to you.
I know most folks don't like a skill tree, but I'd prefer the skill tree simply because AA can get out of hand really easily. Wow, this ShadowKnight is fun at level 60, but at lvl 85 it's worthless unless I stop and grind out 5,000 AA to make it worth it!!!!
I think I would prefer AA's that gave more "flare" to your class, such as an AA snare, more run speed for pullers, a chance to cast a spell without a reagent, etc. I would prefer to avoid the AA that are just more power creep like damage mitigation, dodge chance, more crit chance, etc.
They give you something nice to work on once you make it to max lvl and help keep the feeling of working toward something and of accoplishmentr around. it is another way to get that feeling of all the work I have done has helped to make my character more powerful. it is a good feeling.
I'm a fan of AA's but I would prefer they were more naturally integrated into the game than having a tree to put points into. I would also like to see them throughout the entire level range like several people mentioned. I prefer not to know what these abilities are until I learn them in game.
Instead of leveling a bar to earn a point to choose an ability, why not have to learn the ability from a trainer at the bottom of the dungeon, then "level" that skill to be able to use it? This would create pauses in the normal leveling process while you learned a new skill you acquired. It would discourage people from flying to max level because they wouls miss out skills along the way. It would also give us more time to experience the hopefully vast amount of content :)
Thanakos said:I'm a fan of AA's but I would prefer they were more naturally integrated into the game than having a tree to put points into. I would also like to see them throughout the entire level range like several people mentioned. I prefer not to know what these abilities are until I learn them in game.
Instead of leveling a bar to earn a point to choose an ability, why not have to learn the ability from a trainer at the bottom of the dungeon, then "level" that skill to be able to use it? This would create pauses in the normal leveling process while you learned a new skill you acquired. It would discourage people from flying to max level because they wouls miss out skills along the way. It would also give us more time to experience the hopefully vast amount of content :)
Not sure I want to get a group together for a dungeon everytime I want to add to my AA points/skills :)
Cana
Zorkon said:Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on Alternate Advancement (AA's) and do you have experience with that system?
I like them but not to the extent that they Obsolete a class skill...for example (using EQ as example )
Run speed AA: This it Dwood an Ranger domain. Don't go there!
Mana Regen : Enchanter Domain, don't go there.
Classes have there specialties, they should be Sacred!
IMHO
There ARE other casters that use mana...such as wizards, druids, clerics. Not fun when you are blasting out the big nukes and you run out of mana. Granted if you play well, you try to conserve where you can. :) That is if the puller isn't doing non-stop pulling..heh been there done that..
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:Thanakos said:I'm a fan of AA's but I would prefer they were more naturally integrated into the game than having a tree to put points into. I would also like to see them throughout the entire level range like several people mentioned. I prefer not to know what these abilities are until I learn them in game.
Instead of leveling a bar to earn a point to choose an ability, why not have to learn the ability from a trainer at the bottom of the dungeon, then "level" that skill to be able to use it? This would create pauses in the normal leveling process while you learned a new skill you acquired. It would discourage people from flying to max level because they wouls miss out skills along the way. It would also give us more time to experience the hopefully vast amount of content :)
Not sure I want to get a group together for a dungeon everytime I want to add to my AA points/skills :)
Cana
Well if AA points are obtained through XP, one way or another you will be grinding it out with a group if you want a point. You could have your new abilities learned simultaneously, but then it wouldn't really be alternative Advancement.
I would really just prefer something that doesn't feel like it's tacked on at endgame more as an afterthought, but rather integrated into the game from the beginning.
Thanakos said:CanadinaXegony said:Thanakos said:I'm a fan of AA's but I would prefer they were more naturally integrated into the game than having a tree to put points into. I would also like to see them throughout the entire level range like several people mentioned. I prefer not to know what these abilities are until I learn them in game.
Instead of leveling a bar to earn a point to choose an ability, why not have to learn the ability from a trainer at the bottom of the dungeon, then "level" that skill to be able to use it? This would create pauses in the normal leveling process while you learned a new skill you acquired. It would discourage people from flying to max level because they wouls miss out skills along the way. It would also give us more time to experience the hopefully vast amount of content :)
Not sure I want to get a group together for a dungeon everytime I want to add to my AA points/skills :)
Cana
Well if AA points are obtained through XP, one way or another you will be grinding it out with a group if you want a point. You could have your new abilities learned simultaneously, but then it wouldn't really be alternative Advancement.
I would really just prefer something that doesn't feel like it's tacked on at endgame more as an afterthought, but rather integrated into the game from the beginning.
I have earned AAs without being constantly stuck in a dungeon, there are many other things to do in the game world. :P That's fine for people aiming at raiding, but having an npc at the bottom of a dungeon as the only way to apply your points...wouldn't be wise in my view. Limiting where you can apply your points would limit peoples' play styles. I am confident that the Devs will come up with something amenable and accessible to all. :)
Cana
i would rather see more dev time invested in other ways of acquiring class specialty attrubutes/skills. Ive read that the advanced skills will not be on a trainer but found by questing or exploring dungeons. I would rather see more of that, then some AA system where I advance a point system to get a skill in a decision tree.
I would love to see AA's incorperated during normal level advancement. Not just end level advancement.
If thats the case it seems then it's "Hurry to end level as fast as possible so we can begin working on what we really need." type of thing I dont like that.
I've like to see something along the lines of if you don't do they before level X you don't get this certain AA. So if people are just PowerLeveling to max level right away they will miss out on nice AA's earned by doing certain things during character advancement.
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on Alternate Advancement (AA's) and do you have experience with that system?
I played with them in the orgiginal EQ and have mixed feeling about it.
It's a good way to give some alternative way to advance your toon.
I would like it to be a way to diversify toons as well. If you have 1000 AA points available in abilities, make the maximum a person can gather like 600 (or whatever number you deem fit but enough that people can't grab most of their "wanted" abilities) or something like that. That way people can do different choices and you get alittle bit of flavour within the classes.
Readjustment of your spent AA points should be possible but it should not be easy so people can switch from day to day willy nilly.
Maybe have items from dungeons and stuff that allows for X points of AA adjustment etc (problem being that "older people" will be able to change willy nilly since they gather tons of those items). Allow only Y amout of AA to be switched per day/week or whatnot.
AA have two great advantages - they give you something to chase once at max level, and they give a way to individualize characters.
That said, to work AA need to be hard to get. Being able to do a quick quest to get 3-4AA just pushes everyone to have max AA done. Think EVE - you can get every skill, but it will take 80 years.
I like AA, it gives you character expansion without driving the level cap insanely high which will only make content gaps even bigger. However, when AA first came out in EQ, I almost hung up my daggers...at the time I was deploying a bunch and I was very satisfied with reaching my level cap only to have AA thrown at me...it was somewhat discouraging.
However, my perspective now is...if you do make AA....make them hard and do not scale it to a % of the experience so they take less and less time to obtain as level caps increase, have them be a % of what the /con of the mob is or something.. I don't know the details on that part of it..but going from almost 1 day of play to obtain an AA to 100s of AA in an hour in EQ just waters down the experience (for those who still played EQ at CoTF, I am thinking the 'moles" debacle that let folks farm over 2k AA in a few days).
I really liked AAs in EQ1, it is just yet another "carrot on a stick" insentive that keeps MMOs alive. I wasnt really fond of the system when it first was presented in EQ1, but quickly fell in the love with the idea that I always had a means to continuously improve my toons beyond gear. There is nothing worse then getting to cap and having to ask yourself..."Well, what do I do now?", yah you can raid, but eventually that isnt enough either and the A.D.D crowd (I fit in that category to some extent) starts looking towards other games to fill the gap. I played EQ1 for 8+ years from launch, for two major reasons; community and I never ran out of "carrots" to chase.
I would really prefer that if AAs are in that they are not available right away or even implemented in an expansion or something. There really should be enough core game play at the start available to keep people busy for awhile. Also bring them in a little at a time, maybe again over the course of several expansions.
I really enjoyed the AA system in EQ, at least up until the era where I quit (OoW ish), I can't speak for how it is now if it has changed much in the last several years. I roll alts from time to time, but I tend to spend the vast majority of my time on my main, so I want to be able to continue to permanently improve my character in some meaningful way. AAs allowed me to do this. I definitely understand that this causes a gap between old characters and new ones after a long period of time, but I didn't mind it in EQ. I'm not saying AAs in EQ were perfect, but they made me feel like I was being productive with all the time spent on my main.
When I say permanent improvements, I mean things that persist through expansions. One thing that really irritated me about WoW, which was a big reason I quit after Burning Crusade, was that each expansion was a complete reset for everyone. A 30-40 hour per week raider was more or less on the same footing as a 5 hour per week casual after a new expansion hit. All of my epic gear and war glaives would be replaced by blue dungeon drops in the new expansion. I know this is getting a little off topic, but trust me it's circling back around! I understand new expansions = better gear, but in WoW gear was really the only meaningful way to make your character better, and with the massive difference in gear between expansions, it felt like all of your time investment for your character was wasted and you had to start over again. AAs helped alleviate this in EQ, as those improvements persisted and were still there in new expansions and outlasted gear upgrades.
I'm not a fan of skill trees at all, especially if you are allotted a limited number of "points" to spend and you can easily wipe them all and redo them. That seems very artificial to me; my character is supposed to forget everything he/she has learned but then somehow instantly become an expert at something else? That’s a huge immersion breaker for me. Also, if there are multiple different "paths" for a class, I don't see why I can't learn them both after enough training. Make it harder and take longer to learn each new "specialization" but don’t artificially prevent me from doing it at all. This gets tricky for hybrid classes, since a druid has heals, damage, and utility, they should not be able to master them all. Warriors however, should be able to "specialize" in all types of weapons or physical combat disciplines provided they invest enough time and training. I don't want to get too heavily into class balance here, I'm just using these as examples of how to gain permanent improvement for time investment whether it be AAs or some other mechanism.
*Sorry if this post seems all over the place. I started writing this hours ago, but I'm at work and people keep making me do stuff :( It's making it tough to complete a thought and convey it in writing lol. Priorities!
Riahuf22 said:
You do have some valid points, but i believe there has to be some form of progression after you've hit max level other than just getting better gear for raiding/ or just raiding to get better gear. Either it be Class Specific quests to get you different abilities or something. AA's do this and until EQ hit multiple xpacs it was pretty easy to keep up with it all. If anything I would say if it comes to the point where they're are a ton of AA's to choose form you could combine some of them like EQ is doing now so the new/people coming back can AA up quicker and be needed in grps to prevent the "you don't have this AA/ability so we don;t want you in our grp" scenario.
As a guild leader, the Progeny system has me concerned with the whole revolving door aspect it will cause of raid/group planning.
If we're losing some key folks for a few days/weeks due to Progeny, rest assured we will have buff characters, lower level camps on lockdown with higher level characters keeping it ready for that member calling out the rare spawns and plowing them to that spawn, ressurrent characters, etc to help them level and regear back up. Probably plow paths through dungeons to good camps to save them time as well.
I can assure you, it's not going to be a fun experience for legit newcomers (we'll probably just fill groups with alts or other guild progeny people) in dungeons as we strong-arm our friends back up with such benefits they'll have. AA system would provide bonuses without this happening for this type of playstyle. The people I know already wanting to do Progeny said it they'd be doing it only for the bonuses and already asked if we'd be running such teams to catch people back up.
I heard about Progeny and cringed at the ripple effects this could have while I haven't heard anything equally as official regarding AA implemented. I'm planning with others in guild for a Progeny system they've spoken about and plans are already being put together for alt/buff/res teams for catching people back up.
Leave the progeny, but maybe have both progeny and AA offer bonuses appropriate for what is being done. This appeals to both the player who wants to "re-experience" old content legitly and those who couldn't care less about old content.
Progeny has some benefits for certain types of players who want to re-experience old content and wants to meet new people, but AA has some benefits for those who would rather stick to one character/raid and hang with known people.
Both has their pros and cons, both are needed as they are completely different playstyles and both can co-exist. Having both would appeal to a wider group of people and provide those people options in how they'd like to progress.
I'm not going to sugar coat it, but I'm not sure raiders and those who enjoy end game content are going to want to fart around in low level content while their friends all raid, run new content, group, etc.
I know many people who enjoy playing just one or two mains and would rather not have alt-itis chain rerolling for bonuses and would rather do AA level progression. I also know some more casual friends who enjoy playing alts and meeting/helping new people, this is probably more suited to the Progeny style system.
A possible way to implement AAs so as to help players 'customize' their character while also helping to slow down the 'rush to the end' ideology. It is an idea, that with tweaking, might possibly work better the more aggressive the min/max'er the player is.
1. Divide AAs into 'Amateur/General', 'Race' and 'Class'.
The 'amateur' category is primarily for skills that are normally considered commonplace. This might include Fishing, Swimming as well as some basic combat oriented skills. These should be basic ones (eg: introductory weapon skills giving a tiny bonus, or a tiny hp bonus). They might include 'wearing armour' skills, 'unlocking' skills (such as harvesting types skills) and 'group' based skills.
Racial skills might include a few 'racial' ability extender skills. Eg if gnomes have superior sense of smell, then you could add 'ranks' to this skill to extend it (eg 'sense imminent danger' from the BO of the orc round the corner). Dwarven 'ore affinity' might lend itself to extensions such as better 'finding' or 'mining' skills. Humans may get AAs that unlock or extend 'diplomacy' type skills.
Class AAs would likely be in tiers, with each tier needing progressively more 'AA points' to unlock. These would begin at Tier-1 with AAs that give the player the chance to choose which 'class essentials' to focus on (in a small but meaningful way). Perhaps warrior types could nominate a preferred 'weapon-type', while a Summoner might nominate a preferred 'element' or 'pet-type'. Higher tiers would be to add more focus, or unlock other areas. Perhaps even small buffs on lower tier types instead of a higher tier skill. These should be meaningful, while not overpowering.
2. Start AA accessibility immediately.
The 'general' tab should be available almost immediately, with players 'preset' to 'cash in' a nominal % of gained xp each ding as points to spend. At, say, level 4 they could gain access to the 'slider' to adjust it to provide more AA exp. As the player progresses from level 1-10 the 'nominal % xp converted to AA exp at each ding' should reduce until at level 10 it becomes a full-fledged 'AA xp' system. This allows starter players to level up, finding extra 'AA points' that they spend upon dinging without having to have them micro-manage it, and so swamp them with too many new things to learn. By level 4-6 they will start to get the odd extra 'AA ping' between levels (perhaps), not just the ones at dinging. As they get towards levels 8-10 the number of AAs gained when dinging will have dropped off sharply, with most of their AA coming in 'mini-dings' (ie 'AA pings') throughout these levels.
One of the 'general' AAs should be to unlock tier-1 class AA tab - but not until a certain level, or a certain number of AAs spent etc.
3. The slider is graduated - not freely moveable
If the nominal xp conversion is, say, 5% - then at level 4 players get access to the slider and can move it up to 10% (or anywhere in between in 1% increments). A min/max'er player will certainly push right to 10% immediately, while a more casual player may not. As the levels progress, the players should get more access to the slider - thus being able to increase the AA generation - but at a cost to their rate of levelling.
Thus, at level 15, the slider may be able to be moved to 15%. At level 20, perhaps 20%. Level 25 -> 25% and so on up the levels. This slider progression could be affected by other things as well:
... Perhaps being a progeny adds +25%.
... Perhaps humans get +5%.
... Perhaps having an epic adds +10%.
... Perhaps certain 'god' related (or other) quests add +5% or even more.
... Perhaps you get a bonus % for Alts. E.g. for every character level 20+ on that server, with a bigger bonus for making level 30, 40 and 50. So having 3 level 20's and 2 level 40's might give any new character a +(3x1 + 2x4) for +11% max adjustment to the slider.
Result :
more options for players (within reason, class boundaries and sense),
incorporation of racial bonuses in a meaningful way,
integrating harvesting 'unlocks' and
getting the most aggressive levellers to intentionally slow down their own progress!
Caveat:
There is quite an amount of development work that would be needed - although a vestigial system could probably be implemented for launch merely covering levels 1-10. This would need an AA window containing sections for the 3 areas to be fashioned, not to mention having scaffolding in place for the different types of skills/bonuses that would make up these skills. Ultimately, it would depend on (a) whether there is intended to be an AA system at all, (b) whether the developers feel the benefits outweigh the (development) cost overheads and (c) whether it can be reconciled with the current 'world view' as established by currently implemented stats and associated skill systems.
But, it might prove interesting....
... apologies if I have copied/repeated anyone's ideas, though I skimmed most of the earlier posts!
Evoras said:\A possible way to implement AAs so as to help players 'customize' their character while also helping to slow down the 'rush to the end' ideology. It is an idea, that with tweaking, might possibly work better the more aggressive the min/max'er the player is.
1. Divide AAs into 'Amateur/General', 'Race' and 'Class'.
2. Start AA accessibility immediately.
3. The slider is graduated - not freely moveable
Result :
more options for players (within reason, class boundaries and sense),
incorporation of racial bonuses in a meaningful way,
integrating harvesting 'unlocks' and
getting the most aggressive levellers to intentionally slow down their own progress!
Caveat:
There is quite an amount of development work that would be needed - although a vestigial system could probably be implemented for launch merely covering levels 1-10. This would need an AA window containing sections for the 3 areas to be fashioned, not to mention having scaffolding in place for the different types of skills/bonuses that would make up these skills. Ultimately, it would depend on (a) whether there is intended to be an AA system at all, (b) whether the developers feel the benefits outweigh the (development) cost overheads and (c) whether it can be reconciled with the current 'world view' as established by currently implemented stats and associated skill systems.
But, it might prove interesting....
... apologies if I have copied/repeated anyone's ideas, though I skimmed most of the earlier posts!
Evoras,
At what point in the game will the amount of XP needed to gain 1 AA be equal to the amount of XP needed to gain 1 level? At some point those two amounts will be quite close to each other. It is at that point where choosing AA over levels become equally efficient. You have to take into account the amount of XP earned off each NPC, the time it takes to kill each NPC plus the amount of downtime needed all determines how quickly you can earn XP. I'll say it right now that you'll gain XP faster at max level than you would at any other point in the game. It is levels that determine, for the most part, your total HP pool, total manapool, your skills/abilities reach their ultimate cap and you finally get your full spellbook. Unless a single AA gains you more in the long run than a single level, it is always in your best interest to gain the level over the AA.
I'd hate to see someone trying to earn a single AA point at lvl 10 off lvl 7-9 mobs (blue cons) where they have lousy skills and only a small portion of their spellbook or abilities available.
@Vandraad
Good point - My suggestion does have flaws! Some can be fixed, hopefully. The issue with AAs introduced in EQ (and many since) was the 'flat' amount of exp to gain them - making it relatively inefficient to gain them at level 50 compared to level 55+. The problem is twofold (as you intimate):
(i) As you level, your character becomes more 'versatile', has deeper mana/hp pool etc
(ii) At higher levels each mob accrues more 'flat' exp per kill.
Mitigating this requires a few factors:
A. The early levels need to generate a few AAs per levels:
The first 5% AA 'drain' (which is hidden for levels 1-4) should generate a handful (say, approximately 4 AA's by level 4. it is easier to use lots of 'small' AA point gains than a few 'bigger' AA gains) of AAs when you ding a level. This can then be increased towards 10% by level 10, giving, say 2-3 when you ding and another 3 delivered 1 at a time over the level.
B. AA generation is based on '% of a level exp' rather than a flat 'exp to fill'
In esssence you do want AA progress to become more 'efficient' at higher levels - just not 'dramatically' so. Since the exp per level is (an amended) square function of level (typically) and the exp per mob increases linearly with level, it tends to take longer to gain levels as you go up levels. Thus, if the AAs gained is linked to, say, 10% of your next level's exp giving 5 AAs - then going up levels would result in fewer AAs earned unless you increaseed the % going towards AAs. Ultimately, it will mean grinding AAs at level 50 is less efficient than 'grinding them as you go'.
C. Early-Mid AAs must add 'value'
If these earlier 'starter' AAs actually add an appreciable amount of benefit - perhaps in hp, mana, reduced spell fizzle etc - then they would make it worthwhile to get to aid survival at lower levels. As long as these benefits are 'flat' bonuses, they will have less and less impact as you level up. In this way - if you do rush to 50 and start grinding, you already made levelling harder for yourself at lower levels. In PvP you would never pass up these benefits!
D. Tie many of these AAs into the class/race for versatility
With the AAs tied into allowing character 'focus' or 'extension' of class or race abilities, missing out on these in the early levels will again impact your character. Not just in terms of survival, but in terms of being 'rounded'. This, of course, would be ignored by the tiny minority who absolutely must level fast.
E. AA benefits are based on a flat value
Effort would need to be made to ensure the lower/earlier AAs are worthwhile - at the time - but are comparatively worthless at max level. A certain number would still have to be bought in order to open up higher AA tiers, though.
Eg 'starter' AA may give +10 mana. While worth a lot at level 3, it is worth very litttle by level 20, let alone 50.
Eg 'Tier-1' Troll Racial AA may give +2 hp/tick regen. Worth a lot level 15-20, but worth little at level 50.
By having lots of 'small effect' AAs at early-mid levels, costing from 2-5 AAs each rising to 8-15 AAs, it will hopefully draw the character into horizontal progression that also offers tangible beneifts (at that level and for a little while after) which can be built upon. The (level 15) Tier-1 'troll regen +2' may in fact require you to have already purchased the 'starter' 'troll regen +1' and the trollish tier-1 'thicker blood -1/tick to bleed effects'.
This will NOT stop those who are adamant about rishing to the end-game at the exclusion of all else. What it may do is provide an extra incentive for a large proportion of the players to not do so. The (hopefully) 0.1% will still do so, but this is better than the typical '2-7%' who rush in casual games.
PS MATH WARNING!
I will look into a mathematical formula to see if there is a way to balance these factors: based on 'exp to gain level', 'mean exp per mob at dark-blue', 'grouped exp per hour', 'projected efficiency gain per level', 'projected efficieny gain for using AAs', 'reduced grouping availaility at higher levels', 'gearing down-time effect on exp per hour' and 'hours per day' to factor a median calculation for AA's per level and how the efficiency would be maintained to a lower exponential growth factor. Using original EQ level/exp stats, it should be possible to create a model for the system and use some form of statistical analysis or regression to find a happy medium.
@Evoras
Great ideas. I like AA's myself, but I would prefer them to be earned as you level from the start instead of waiting until max level to begin accumulating them. Your idea really seems like it would be a great way to have horizontal progression and slow down the overall rate of level progression a bit. Again, great ideas. Kudos to you my friend.
While its nice to have AA from the start it kinda defeats the point of it. And if you scale it to level up i.e 1 lvl = 2 AA then it kinda would be mandatory to leave the slider at max for AA gain. Since you gained level ups usualy faster at low lvls in EQ. Im a big fan of AAs and i would like them as soon as possible as well. In order to differantiate my char from others. Or at least feel like i could. But if all have like 100 AAs at lvl 50 since its kind of mandatory to have them whats the point :) in them. I heard we get to choose bonus stats every few lvls maybe it could be some more then just that and keep the AAs for max lvl where they kind of, belong to.
About the AA problems splitting the community it kinda didn feel that bad to me in EQ. I had about every Class there was beside a Druid Wizzard and Cleric. I enjoyed playing my 600 AA Enchanter as much as my 200AA Shaman or my 500AA Warrior. But i was alot younger back then and i start to see the problems it could cause. Still in EQ with new expansions came a faster gain of XPs and higher AA Skills would cost more for less benefit. There have been a few very Powerfull must haves then some moderates and lastly small upgrades. At a certain point much more AAs didn change your power alot anymore still it felt like you could move still forward. Or start an Alt. Till the next expansion gave you a few more good options to add.
Still i like the idea of somone sticking around for along time being more powerfull then a new Player wich could reach max lvl rather fast after a few expansions. They usualy tend to make lvling easier.
Conclusion AA = Wouldn feel good without them.
Progeny System = Would like one as well.