EQ1 style AA system is my top wishlist item. Over time even if content can't keep up, I can always progress my character through AA and feel I've moved forward over a day, week, month, etc. AAs have the potential to fill content gaps while allowing you to build your character more uniquely.
I've sort of envisioned it like:
Both allow bonuses, both appeal to different playstyles. Grinding in either direction takes away time from the other direction. The downside is I can see powerleveling friends through progeny likely quicker for bonuses than I could push them through AAs for comparable bonuses. Perhaps the bonuses would be different or averaged out in playtime-to-benefit in a meaningful way. Both systems can be gained solo, in groups, etc as XP comes from many sources be it leveling a character level or leveling AA levels.
I'd be pretty bummed if the game didn't have AA early on actually. Sometimes it's nice to just hop on and keep things simple and still feel you've made progress, then there's nights you want to just set up shop at a camp and grind with friends and music going.
Would prefer AA's tied to levels and not be something you have to grind, leveling in Pantheon is suppose to be slower. If you earn X many AA points per level and can use them in between "Dings" it could make the leveling less monotonous.
New players would just level vs leveling then grinding AA's to feel useful.
I really liked EQ's AA system, I was already at level cap when it was added and it gave me something to do. :)
Just trying to look at it from a new players perspective joining Pantheon.
Keep seeing the argument that it would be unfriendly to new or casual players. I dont think it has to be that way though. As I said before and others have said: Horizontal progression could put an end to that problem. But to me that could still mean combat AAs. Just have to be careful about how they are implemented. Like taking away something to give something. Or a small change in the operation of a spell or ability? Id have to think on it a bit more but I think it possible.
Also I would hope that AAs and Progeny could co-exist as 2 different ways to do the same thing. You either progeny and take something to your next character, or you stick with 1 character and just do AAs.
I loved EQ1 AA's. I only ever experienced AA's after max level - not during the levelling process, so can't speak on that.
AA's meant that I could continuously improve my character (that any time spent on a max level character was still 'progression'). They allow another means of character development outside of the item grind.
Without AA's, I might have been thinking hmmm I could better spend this time on levelling an alt - or I might only play the max character for item / quest spawns / raids.
I agree that there were cons, especially as time went on (played till GoD) - too many AA's, mandatory AA paths, elitism, the gap between have & have not's, etc.
I think horizontal progression would be ideal, but not sure how much can you stretch a character in this direction without new ideas / systems (vertical progression probably has easier options / variety).
I hope the Pantheon team & player community develop good ideas to work around, and minimise these cons.
I also agree that it's better to choose a skill and then earn the AA point (instead of just earning points and assigning later) / increasing the skill cap via AA, then levelling up the skill by using said skill - this means that your character is working towards that goal, instead of just flat xp gain.
Also, how would earnt AA's on a character work with the progeny system (if that character is 'retired')?
sdcord said:I think a contested game world combined with AA's create's an environment where players, who don't keep pace with hardcore players, don't have access to max level content because it's on lockdown status. Some would say, "well then join their guild". And then I would say, "but I dont want to join their guild". And then they would say, "well then join another guild". And then I would say, "I'm already in a guild". And then they would say, "well, leave your guild". And then I would say, "I cant leave my guild, I've been with them for over a year". And then they would say "well then it's your problem!". And then I would say, "you're a horrible person!". And then they would say "I'm not a horrible person, how does that make me a horrible person?" And then I would say,...ugh, nevermind...
I mostly agree with this. I think they're fine but it's tricky to implement.. just like anything else in an mmo. EQ2's AA thing seemed like a nightmare. Tried to restart my account a few years back and ended up getting carted around by some guy blowing through quests to help me get some AA's which I guess I needed to get done. Quit immediately after... whole thing was so watered down and lame feeling.
Idk.. that seems dumb. They should be some 'nice to have' advancements not some 'you cant play without these' advancements.
Seems like most people on here are saying similar things which is good. Not a horrible idea but just be mindful of how many there are, what they do, etc.
I'm a player that enjoys the single group content and solo content of an MMO the most. I put a lot of playing time in my characters but I'm not much into the raiding scene. There's players that love raiding, kill a big mob get their loot, to improve their character. I tend to do the grind and gradually make my guy stronger. Of course most people will do both to a varying degree, but I feel an AA system is necessary. If you put time into your character you should feel him become stronger whether youre killing raid bosses or grinding.
Alternate Advancement is one of many reasons EQ has enjoyed such longetivity, at least for me. I would love to see a return of this system for Pantheon. I like having options, but I dislike the "builds" meta. I prefer an additive system like we saw in EQ, with the potential to get everything, although making the path exeedingly long. I like the idea that my character is never finished, and any experience gained is progressing my character. I think this model also supports continued grouping for exp past max level.
I never played EQ during the AA time, but I would like an post max level AA system like EQ1, where there is no limit. Personally, I don't mind a system where after you hit the max, it gives you something to do with extra exp and gives you a way to keep advancing. I want it unlimited but with so many options and steps and paths that it would be unreasonable for anyone to be able to get anywhere close to all of them for a LONG LONG time. I don't think it HAS to be elitist if there are a variety of paths and all are useful. I mean, if a cleric has choices of faster casting, stronger heals, cheaper spells, stronger buffs, reduced cooldowns, decreased aggro, etc etc etc, and all are balanced well, that should avoid a system where groups say "if you don't have 5 steps of X, we don't want you." I would like to see it though that if I play for years and years and earn a ton of XP, I can get all 5 ranks of X and of Y and of Z, etc. They should make me more and more powerful, but without making it so that i am useless without them.
Now, that being said, I accept and expect that a certain level of AAs would set you apart in desirability from others...which is natural. It is basically no different than wanting a level 25 for a certain dungeon over a level 22, etc. If I am level 50 and have earned 25 ranks of AA steps for 5 ranks of added aggro, and 5 ranks of melee speed, and 5 ranks of melee damage, and 5 ranks of reduced melee damage, and 5 ranks of magic resist, and it took me a year to get that, i am and should be more valuable than a brand new level 50 with nothing. There is a big difference there and we are basically different levels. That should not be the case though if i am just barely level 50 compared to someone who is level 50 with a total of 5 or 6 steps of AA overall.
I am all for having AAs in the game. The more the merrier so long as no one AA stat/ability is all that strong. I have seen a number of people bring up the problems concerning guilds with AA requirements and the fact that to many AAs (or to strong) can make it so that new players will never be able to catch up with the older ones. I have two thoughts on that:
1) There will always be guilds out there with requirements of some sort. They do this for the same reason fortune 500 companies have job requirements that do not really need to be there. i.e. experience in this or that that can be easily learned. This helps the company sort through what may be thousands of resumes! Truth is, if there are many, many players that want to join your guild, why not be picky? But if you are both picky and lazy... you will use requirements! Who wants to spend all of their time to actually meet all of those players?!?
2) Why not make AAs that have a negative side effect? Want more HPs? It will cost you AC. Want more spell damage? It will cost you mana. Want an instant cast Succor spell? It will still use up a spell slot. Make it so that the overall effect is a positive, but also so that all choices will be trades offs. If the encounters are varied enough (I hope they are!), then no one set up should be ideal for them all.
My 2 cp.
I loved grinding AA's in EQ1 with some guildies, it gave us something to do that was stress free after our raid nights! It also helped build social interaction with others. You could progress your character in a relaxed pace while chatting with friends. Or if you put together an elitist group and see how many AA's you could grind in 2 hours. LOVED the added traits you received from them. If I could have it my way I'd like to see them in the release or shortly after. Unless It will take the hardcore player more then 6-8 months to max out their level. But if you will be able to max in month or so it would be cool to have something else to work on. I liked the idea of having them added slowly with expansions. Anyway I'm so excited for this game I'm rambling on, but AA's is a great thing IMO.
/cheers
Kilsin said:Everyone is in agreeance so far, interesting!
It can be a great way to continue progression on a maxed level character and also help to set your class apart from other similar classes but if done wrong, they can not only divide the community but also set the skill ceiling too high for casual/new players, turning many off the game, so I think it is important that they are balanced, difficult to get and not so many of them that you can have hundreds going into a new expansion but just enough ti feel like you have unique choices to make without overpowering any classes.
The problem with AAs are when you introduce lines of advancement which then must be taken into account when designing future content. With EQ1 you could raise all your base stats by 15 and all your base resists by 20. +20 resists when facing raid targets might not trivialize the content, but it does make it easier. But against group content? Completely trivializes caster damage. If you, as the designer, doesn't take into account the possibility that everyone going against your content has 20 higher base resists and 15 higher base stats then you're doing a disservice to the game. So you're now force to design content under the assumption that everyone has every AA available. This is where the 'I'll never catch up' comes from with players who join the game years later. They literally cannot catch up and will forever be facing content with a huge penalty.
Oh, and before anyone pipes up and says 'well just make them cost more' does not solve the problem. People will still max out their AAs. You probably won't, but many many people will.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I like AAs, but I'm one of those who will level very quickly and will have most, if not all, AAs long before the next expansion is released.
I Love AA's in EQ1 is what sperated your class from the others, besdies just the spells/discs you had, and it brings in another form of longevity to the game. Only thing i ask is that there isn't like 50 different activating AA's i can trigger like how EQ1 is now cuase i felt like i was more focused on what AA's are down an which ones came back up during fights than watching the fight itself. Granted i macroed a few of my AA's together even though i lost DPS sometimes doing ti that way it was better than having 10 hotbars filled with discs and AA's to where i lost half my screen cuase of it. But some really cool Passive combat abilities would be great like how pallies had slay undead, rangers had endless quiver, things like this are class defining AA's that made a lot of classes become unique to other classes becuase they didn't get them but got something else in return to amke them different from them as well.
Posted on FB, but thought I would post my thoughts here also.
My thoughts are a similar system should exist. However I did not necessarily like how or what it became in EQ. Over the years playing different games that implemented a similar system I would more like to see AA possibly being harder to obtain while content being designed around NOT needing AAs. If it ever becomes necessary that we must have earlier AAs, I would prefer everyone just receive those stats, remove those AAs, and make room for new ones.
I would also like to somehow have a system that created infinite progression towards your character like paragons from Diablo 3. No idea how this could be implemented without an imbalance, but just a thought.
I loved AAs in EQ because it allowed you to do character customization in a way. For example, I played a druid, and being able to pick healing AAs over offensive AAs allowed me to perform better as a healer in groups since that is what I preferred to do. What I hated about the system in EQ, however, is that the game's content was balanced around the fact that you had all of them. This essentially locked the non-hardcore players out of content for a long time. I don't believe this is healthy for the game.
I envision AAs in this game being limited but useful, and that SOME of those AAs carry over to new characters by way of the progeny system. What I would like to see is a choice-based system that gives you a reason to play other classes through the progeny system with a specific playstyle end goal in mind. Continuing with my druid example from above, I would like to see a reason for me to first play a cleric, get AAs that increase healing efficiency or power by a certain percentage, and then transfer those traits to a druid once I decide to create a progeny. Note that this carrying over of traits should only apply to passive abilities gained by AAs, not active ones, which allows destinct class roles to remain intact. There should be some active abilities you can gain through the AA system, but those should only be usable as long as you are playing that class currently. In other words, if I first created a cleric, then created a druid progeny, then created a cleric progeny, that second cleric progeny should still have those active abilities unlocked. They would be unusable to the druid, but I worked to earn them so if I played a cleric again they should still be there.
Edit: To add to this a little bit, there should be class-specific passive AAs that carry over as well as passive AAs shared by multiple classes (which can only be earned once per lineage)
sdcord said:I think a contested game world combined with AA's create's an environment where players, who don't keep pace with hardcore players, don't have access to max level content because it's on lockdown status. Some would say, "well then join their guild". And then I would say, "but I dont want to join their guild". And then they would say, "well then join another guild". And then I would say, "I'm already in a guild". And then they would say, "well, leave your guild". And then I would say, "I cant leave my guild, I've been with them for over a year". And then they would say "well then it's your problem!". And then I would say, "you're a horrible person!". And then they would say "I'm not a horrible person, how does that make me a horrible person?" And then I would say,...ugh, nevermind...
Even without AA you will have this. Those players that spend more time farming gear will be in better guilds the guilds will require certain things that only that gear gives. Your refusal to leave a guild that does nothing is no ones fault but your own. Your guild doesnt desrve a chance to pull a raid mob just like they dont deserve the gear just because
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on Alternate Advancement (AA's) and do you have experience with that system?
I like them, like saving up exps to put toward them, specially when my character has reached level cap (for that particular expansion or expansions?) I do other things like harvesting, crafting, exploring, but the chance to improve my character is always good, I think.
Cana
chaoticyeshua said:I loved AAs in EQ because it allowed you to do character customization in a way. For example, I played a druid, and being able to pick healing AAs over offensive AAs allowed me to perform better as a healer in groups since that is what I preferred to do. What I hated about the system in EQ, however, is that the game's content was balanced around the fact that you had all of them. This essentially locked the non-hardcore players out of content for a long time. I don't believe this is healthy for the game.
I envision AAs in this game being limited but useful, and that SOME of those AAs carry over to new characters by way of the progeny system. What I would like to see is a choice-based system that gives you a reason to play other classes through the progeny system with a specific playstyle end goal in mind. Continuing with my druid example from above, I would like to see a reason for me to first play a cleric, get AAs that increase healing efficiency or power by a certain percentage, and then transfer those traits to a druid once I decide to create a progeny. Note that this carrying over of traits should only apply to passive abilities gained by AAs, not active ones, which allows destinct class roles to remain intact. There should be some active abilities you can gain through the AA system, but those should only be usable as long as you are playing that class currently. In other words, if I first created a cleric, then created a druid progeny, then created a cleric progeny, that second cleric progeny should still have those active abilities unlocked. They would be unusable to the druid, but I worked to earn them so if I played a cleric again they should still be there.
Edit: To add to this a little bit, there should be class-specific passive AAs that carry over as well as passive AAs shared by multiple classes (which can only be earned once per lineage)
Nvrmnd this comment i just saw the Edit portion and it counters what i was saying.
What are my thoughts? While I absolutely love the idea of AA's.. but there's more negative aspects with them than positive I feel. Don't get me wrong.. I really really LOVE the idea of them.. and at the end of the day they're probably going to be in anyway.. but..
Benefits:
- Provides a benefit to players who invest in their character.
- Allows for further progression and use of characters. (traditionally at max level-ish.)
Cons:
If not designed well can,
- Cause a split of tiers within the community due to the sheer high number of AA's if increased further down the line.
- Halts/slows down the progression of new players whom wish to "catch up". (I personally have experienced this, you try to get in a guild.. requirements: 700aa's minimum. You go: "Ok I'll go for it." You get the 700aas go back to the guild and the requirement is now 1200aa minimum. It's a never ending struggle or can be.. in which because of the evolution and collection of the top tier guilds gear over time from the get go you can never really catch up without GREAT GREAT differculty.. Which is totally not worth it.. hence becomes a tiered/split community.)
- AA's can become too vital.. and kinda ties into the tiers thing. If you don't have X amount or X ability you don't get not chosen vs someone who has... those the people at the top stay at the top and the people below have a worsened experience with less chance of getting a group.. and suffer more in the long term.
.. and considering this mmo "might" be a smaller community than most in regards to sheer numbers playing Pantheon I truly believe it to be a more of a bad thing for the game.. Think of it this way if you (VR) took exping for aa's out.. that would encourage people to reroll and actually level-up again and join new players/be more social with the use of the progeny system.
All am saying is that with the progeny system.. I think its surplus to requirement.
Nimryl said:What are my thoughts? While I absolutely love the idea of AA's.. but there's more negative aspects with them than positive I feel. Don't get me wrong.. I really really LOVE the idea of them.. and at the end of the day they're probably going to be in anyway.. but..
Benefits:
- Provides a benefit to players who invest in their character.
- Allows for further progression and use of characters. (traditionally at max level-ish.)
Cons:
If not designed well can,
- Cause a split of tiers within the community due to the sheer high number of AA's if increased further down the line.
- Halts/slows down the progression of new players whom wish to "catch up". (I personally have experienced this, you try to get in a guild.. requirements: 700aa's minimum. You go: "Ok I'll go for it." You get the 700aas go back to the guild and the requirement is now 1200aa minimum. It's a never ending struggle or can be.. in which because of the evolution and collection of the top tier guilds gear over time from the get go you can never really catch up without GREAT GREAT differculty.. Which is totally not worth it.. hence becomes a tiered/split community.)
- AA's can become too vital.. and kinda ties into the tiers thing. If you don't have X amount or X ability you don't get not chosen vs someone who has... those the people at the top stay at the top and the people below have a worsened experience with less chance of getting a group.. and suffer more in the long term.
.. and considering this mmo "might" be a smaller community than most in regards to sheer numbers playing Pantheon I truly believe it to be a more of a bad thing for the game.. Think of it this way if you (VR) took exping for aa's out.. that would encourage people to reroll and actually level-up again and join new players/be more social with the use of the progeny system.
All am saying is that with the progeny system.. I think its surplus to requirement.
You do have some valid points, but i believe there has to be some form of progression after you've hit max level other than just getting better gear for raiding/ or just raiding to get better gear. Either it be Class Specific quests to get you different abilities or something. AA's do this and until EQ hit multiple xpacs it was pretty easy to keep up with it all. If anything I would say if it comes to the point where they're are a ton of AA's to choose form you could combine some of them like EQ is doing now so the new/people coming back can AA up quicker and be needed in grps to prevent the "you don't have this AA/ability so we don;t want you in our grp" scenario.
I don't have problems with AAs --- would prefer them more like EQ1's instead of Eq2's, but that is me ...
Just please, please -- IF you have them, make them in the game from the start and not an "after thought" later .. after the people who start on
day # 1 playing have gotten to a reasonable high level; no AAs , but good level --- been there, done that and it was not fun for a level 50 or 60 to have no AAs
and have to catch up with people who waited and came later ----
and a real pain if you want to raid a bit later on too ..
Oh and please .. can we have a MINIMUM number of AAs to progress past a certain point in adventure level maybe? --- so we won't
have level 80s running around with 150 AAs, when the max AAs is 250 ? sheesh makes it a bear to get good players for groups
( better to be a low level with lots odf AAs we found out, makes the higher levels a lot more fun) )
Anotheer thought here --- what made it is so frustrating in EQ2 was the fasct that it was never made clear just how you even got AAs --
it was QUESTING, we all eventually found out (the hard way, as a day 3 "live" player that I was, all we did was "kill stuff" to level) and we were never
officially told how to go and get those important AAs the new players seem to get so easily
I'm ok either with having AAs or not having them. However, if the game does have them i would much rather have them be like EQ AAs, not EQ2 AAs.
Also, you should be able to get every single AA if you are willing to grind it out.
It would be fairly simple to make it so players new to the game later on wouldnt feel discouraged about trying to catch up in order to be raid worthy. When AAs are initially introduced, they should all require the same amount of exp. As the number of AAs increases, simply decrease the amount of exp needed for the first so many.
For example, say the initial batch has a total of 50 AAs when maxed. Those should all require the same amount of exp. Fast forward 5 years and the game has 1000 total achievable AAs. Make the first 100 only take 10% as much exp each, then the other 900 require the regular amount of exp. This means the long term players could be more developed while allowing newer players to get the base necessary AAs needed in order to raid, then move onto the rest.
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on Alternate Advancement (AA's) and do you have experience with that system?
I like them but not to the extent that they Obsolete a class skill...for example (using EQ as example )
Run speed AA: This it Dwood an Ranger domain. Don't go there!
Mana Regen : Enchanter Domain, don't go there.
Classes have there specialties, they should be Sacred!
IMHO