Oxillion said:Isnt this considerd an exploit?
Ox
That's kinda what I was saying. If you are able to kite 10 mobs away from a boss, leaving him vulnerable, well that's not cool. That's too easy If your kiting and you fall through the floor in a dungeon, shouldn't the mob also fall, instead of pathing through the whole dungeon and bringing everything with it just to get to you, leaving that whole area clear for a team mate to pull a boss, too easy.
Kilsin said:Oxillion said:Isnt this considerd an exploit?
Ox
Leashing and kiting are most definitely not exploits, they are developer created mechanics, both were in VG and played a vital part in gameplay.
I understand the kiting and action it does but this would allow people to run in and take a mob and leave the group or solo person standing there fighting trash mobs as some tool KS’s the mob. I can see the benefits of it but I question the mechanics of it. Surely, we can create a better system that basically says tag your it and run away. I would think the AI and or mechanics around it would not be that simple. Not complaining about but stating that is something I have experienced many times. I guess it tells me no challenge just cheat the system.
Ox
Kilsin said:Oxillion said:Isnt this considerd an exploit?
Ox
Leashing and kiting are most definitely not exploits, they are developer created mechanics, both were in VG and played a vital part in gameplay.
I thought kiting was created via Emergent gameplay :p Sort of like Feign Death splitting.
I have not read the whole thread - but I've scanned it.
I'm OK with both, but I would prefer that the leashing be smart. For example:
In some areas, mobs should just chase you forever...
SLIGHTLY off topic (I hope nobody else has brought this up and already been told to stick ON topic) - If someone runs a mob right by me, and it stops chasing that person (or kills them), there should at least be a chance that it will stop on it's way back to it's home to try to kill me.
EDIT: One more thing... I find it very annoying when I'm kiting and I kite a leashed mob a little too far. Particularly when it happens just as I am about to finish an epic kill I shouldn't have been able to do. If I've engaged it, I've engaged it. I win, or I die.
Oxillion said:Kilsin said:Oxillion said:Isnt this considerd an exploit?
Ox
Leashing and kiting are most definitely not exploits, they are developer created mechanics, both were in VG and played a vital part in gameplay.
I understand the kiting and action it does but this would allow people to run in and take a mob and leave the group or solo person standing there fighting trash mobs as some tool KS’s the mob. I can see the benefits of it but I question the mechanics of it. Surely, we can create a better system that basically says tag your it and run away. I would think the AI and or mechanics around it would not be that simple. Not complaining about but stating that is something I have experienced many times. I guess it tells me no challenge just cheat the system.
Ox
Not all mobs will be "you tag it and run" some will call friends to aid them, some will root, summon or debuff/slow you, some will chase you to the end of the earth and some may be smart enough to stop chasing you and return to the safety of their home/camp/friends it will just depend on the situation, what mob it is and the area you are in.
KSing is something different altogether and will happen with or without leashing/kiting, there are ways to combat that too like locking the kill to the person who does the first 25% of damage or first to tag it or highest overall damage etc. but there will always be people who want to steal your stuff, kills, partner etc. and the more they do it the more of a negative impact it will have on their place within the community, the harder it will be to find groups or get any help, so the community can play a big part in mitigating that aspect.
It would be a definite, next-gen AI thing for an MMO to have a mix of aggro 'functions' depending on the monster, the situation, the time of day even some randomness.
A guard should perhaps have a very short leash to his post (but also have an alarm to sound if you aggro him more than a couple times).
A wolf might track you a looong time.
A mercenary lose interest unless you have a price on your head.
A sneaky goblin might realise you are more powerful so follow you and wait until you are weakened to attack you.
A cowardly orc might run instantly and hide behind it's cheiftain.
No one-size-fits-all aggro mechanic, please.
disposalist said:It would be a definite, next-gen AI thing for an MMO to have a mix of aggro 'functions' depending on the monster, the situation, the time of day even some randomness.
A guard should perhaps have a very short leash to his post (but also have an alarm to sound if you aggro him more than a couple times).
A wolf might track you a looong time.
A mercenary lose interest unless you have a price on your head.
A sneaky goblin might realise you are more powerful so follow you and wait until you are weakened to attack you.
A cowardly orc might run instantly and hide behind it's cheiftain.
No one-size-fits-all aggro mechanic, please.
If you noticed in our first stream the Orc Brad pulled blew Warhorn to alert the whole camp which trained him as we ran away! ;)
Kilsin said:Do you prefer mob leashing or once you aggro a mob you either kill it, die or zone?
The optimal solution to nearly every question you ask about gameplay and various mechanics should be "yes, if it make sense for the situation." Nothing exciting is ever 'either-or', 'this or that'. It's about differences, nuances, unpredictability, challenge. Knowing every mob everywhere leashes? boring as %&@#. Knowing all mobs chase you till you zone? also boring as %&@#. It the lazy answer to a fundamental game concept.
Until we encounter a creature, we should not know ahead of time what is in its mind on this question. Yes, we can indeed extrapolate for previous experience with creatures of a similar broad kind (undead, animal, sentient non-societal being, sentient societal being, hive-mind creature, etc) but that creature in front of us? There should always be that chance that their actions will surprise us.
exploit is a term i usually hear people use for their own purposes. the best definition i heard was 'using game mechanics in ways to get unintended, by the devs, advantages.'
however, then there is the whole point about what was intended, and thus if not specifically stated, is argued not an exploit.
i don't see why, if kiting is acceptable, using it to kill the boss while ignoring adds should not be. ultimately each are just proof of poor AI. personally i hope for good AI, but kiting did make it alot easier to get the KDQ kills for epics, if you had a computer that could handle the numbers.
as far as not knowing until we encounter a mob, the fact is, unless you are the first to kill a mob, you certainly will be able to know. and the first will likely be powerleveling guilds that i would expect to not be suprised by much. the internet is here, there will be maps and guides for everything on day 2. /shrug
Everquest was great because it commanded a grave fear of death, and respect for uncompromising mechanics. One such mechanic was that if you aggroed a mob, it was now yours. In other words if you break it, you buy it.
Make it simple, cheap and easy. Just follow everquests footsteps. You break it, you buy it.
If the zones are massive and leashes have to be implemented, make them big enough that they cant be depended upon.
Related to leashing : Mobs shouldnt harmlessly run back to their spawn point, they should agro whomever is near. Some of my fondest memories had to do with bad pulls and epic trains. Trains are great motivators for improving skill and establishing a pullers reputation.
Greattaste said:Everquest was great because it commanded a grave fear of death, and respect for uncomromising mechanics. One such mechanic was that if you aggroed a mob, it was now yours. In other words if you break it, you buy it.
Make it simple, cheap and easy. Just follow everquests footsteps. You break it, you buy it.
If the zones are massive and leashes have to be implemented, make them big enough that they cant be depended upon.
And there should be trains just like in EQ. Mobs shouldnt harmlessly run back to spawn, they should agro whomever is near. Remember thr greatness of EQ.
You know, I am able to bend a bit in the wind of opinion, but I find this logic hard to argue with. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Kilsin said:Yes, indeed and I'm so looking forward to the next released session! It's that kind of EQ/VG feel but with added goodness that has me very excited about this game.disposalist said:It would be a definite, next-gen AI thing for an MMO to have a mix of aggro 'functions' depending on the monster, the situation, the time of day even some randomness.
A guard should perhaps have a very short leash to his post (but also have an alarm to sound if you aggro him more than a couple times).
A wolf might track you a looong time.
A mercenary lose interest unless you have a price on your head.
A sneaky goblin might realise you are more powerful so follow you and wait until you are weakened to attack you.
A cowardly orc might run instantly and hide behind it's cheiftain.
No one-size-fits-all aggro mechanic, please.
If you noticed in our first stream the Orc Brad pulled blew Warhorn to alert the whole camp which trained him as we ran away! ;)
disposalist said:Kilsin said:Yes, indeed and I'm so looking forward to the next released session! It's that kind of EQ/VG feel but with added goodness that has me very excited about this game.disposalist said:It would be a definite, next-gen AI thing for an MMO to have a mix of aggro 'functions' depending on the monster, the situation, the time of day even some randomness.
A guard should perhaps have a very short leash to his post (but also have an alarm to sound if you aggro him more than a couple times).
A wolf might track you a looong time.
A mercenary lose interest unless you have a price on your head.
A sneaky goblin might realise you are more powerful so follow you and wait until you are weakened to attack you.
A cowardly orc might run instantly and hide behind it's cheiftain.
No one-size-fits-all aggro mechanic, please.
If you noticed in our first stream the Orc Brad pulled blew Warhorn to alert the whole camp which trained him as we ran away! ;)
Glad you like it man :)
Kilsin said:I also think a combination is best, if we can evolve on what EQ and VG gave us (no leashing and leashing - both worked very well for each game) and have a system where an angry wolf or bear would chase you to the death but a city or town guard may be smart enough to realise they are leaving their town at a disadvantage and return after a short while we could have the best of both mechanics.
Someone made that same analogy on Twitter too which I thought was cool as that was my personal take on it ;)
I would agree to the combination idea. Free roaming mobs should chase you to the end of the earth. Names and trash alike. While stationary mobs guarding something or someone should leash so they don't leave their post duties.
My initial thought is that leashing with zones makes little sense.
Additionally, how often was training mobs to zone really a viable option to get at a named mob? Even if you do plane of fear style pulling where a ranger tags mobs off a bards train pull, if the bard were to die or zone the ranger would have the aggro. It seems like a silly argument from an EQ perspective where there are a bunch of classes with mez and lull type abilities to begin with. There's plenty of content where mobs summon, or dispel or snare or nuke which makes this tactic unviable to begin with. I don't get what the big deal is. It's a tactic that works in some cases and not in others, and has significant risk associated with it.
Arximiro said:
Do you remember old school XI where people would train to the entrance of CN and the mobs would slowly walk back killing everything along the way? Eventually they changed it so mobs warp back to prevent them wiping every exp camp along the way.
In compliment to this thread and in relation to concern raised in the recently locked thread from https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7362/will-there-be-trains-of-mobs-in-pantheonZ
Then if the mobs would agro other players that are on the mob's direct route back his spot could be nasty. (not to mention agro on other zone life)
Then a leash back to spot could also cause trouble for unaware players being on that spot.
So I'd say an AI should not have a mob call friends having the whole regiment of mobs run after that single player (don't orcs have to protect their camp too?)
Then mobs walking back are not crazy many either, and not too few as to fall into ambush. (do mobs get horns as to warn far away buddies?)
Retsof said:Kiting is by no means an exploit. In EQ, If the devs decided that kiting should not be an option, they simply gave those mobs the summon ability.
Don't forget that some of them also had the option to root and snare you as well. Kiting was well and good but it also had it's risks. I went back to EQ after a looong break a while back and had completely forgotten that orc mystics could blind you and turn your entire screen black. Thought my monitor had blitzed out until I remembered, oh yeah. Those guys. That's something missed from many newer MMOs these days. That sort of mind-fudgery.
Kilsin said:Oxillion said:Kilsin said:Oxillion said:Isnt this considerd an exploit?
Ox
Leashing and kiting are most definitely not exploits, they are developer created mechanics, both were in VG and played a vital part in gameplay.
I understand the kiting and action it does but this would allow people to run in and take a mob and leave the group or solo person standing there fighting trash mobs as some tool KS’s the mob. I can see the benefits of it but I question the mechanics of it. Surely, we can create a better system that basically says tag your it and run away. I would think the AI and or mechanics around it would not be that simple. Not complaining about but stating that is something I have experienced many times. I guess it tells me no challenge just cheat the system.
Ox
Not all mobs will be "you tag it and run" some will call friends to aid them, some will root, summon or debuff/slow you, some will chase you to the end of the earth and some may be smart enough to stop chasing you and return to the safety of their home/camp/friends it will just depend on the situation, what mob it is and the area you are in.
KSing is something different altogether and will happen with or without leashing/kiting, there are ways to combat that too like locking the kill to the person who does the first 25% of damage or first to tag it or highest overall damage etc. but there will always be people who want to steal your stuff, kills, partner etc. and the more they do it the more of a negative impact it will have on their place within the community, the harder it will be to find groups or get any help, so the community can play a big part in mitigating that aspect.
On this "chase you to the ends of the Earth".... Does that mean that if you zone they will zone also? That could get awesomely hairy fast....hehehehe