Deal with it kid. No entitled, bubbled wrapped, everyone get a trophy here!
Now get off my lawn.
Mod Edit: Removed profanity, please do not try and avoid the profanity filter as it is a breach of the guidelines.
Garmr said:Deal with it kid. No entitled, bubbled wrapped, everyone get a trophy here!
Now get off my lawn.
It's funny you should say that because by not leashing it can make clearing camps to get to named easier, just train the camp away, rest of group goes in easy mode to kill named and move on, there are many arguments for both sides but it cannot be called "bubble wrapped" by any means, both have pros and cons but it comes down to the game, the AI and how it is implemented, EQ has no leashing, VG had leashing both worked very well in each game and both were difficult in different ways.
Also edited your post for avoiding the profanity filter, which is a breach of forum guidelines.
Kilsin said:Garmr said:Deal with it kid. No entitled, bubbled wrapped, everyone get a trophy here!
Now get off my lawn.
It's funny you should say that because by not leashing it can make clearing camps to get to named easier, just train the camp away, rest of group goes in easy mode to kill named and move on, there are many arguments for both sides but it cannot be called "bubble wrapped" by any means, both have pros and cons but it comes down to the game, the AI and how it is implemented, EQ has no leashing, VG had leashing both worked very well in each game and both were difficult in different ways.
Also edited your post for avoiding the profanity filter, which is a breach of forum guidelines.
There is ways around this, simply have the named/boss mob just summon back the camp. When the summon goes off, have it memwipe the adds so they attack the group.
I think the default behavior should depend on the type of mob and its function. Is it guarding, wandering, patrolling, foraging or resting? There should be a difference between say a herd of elephants where the adult elephants will chase you for a good distance before returning to the herd while your friends kill poor baby elephants for xp and mobs like skeletons, zombies, and golems who will chase you to the ends of the earth.
Also, highly intelligent mobs should ask themselves if they are being lured away by evil adventurers. I realize this kinda puts a damper on kiting but isn't part of the fun knowing what to kite and how quickly you can kill it?
Why not a combination of both? Randomise it based on a whole bunch of variables: Intelligent mobs are more likely to follow you to zone, as are voraciously hungry mobs. Other mobs like undead, constructs or common critters are more likely to be leashed - but not always, so be prepared for that nasty surprise!
The ideal answer would be somewhere in the middle... A goblin would know better than to follow an enemy through the guarded gates of a city, but the same may not be said about a large rat... A humanoid probably wouldn't stray too far away from its camp, its brethren, and the safety of numbers, but an orc may not have that same sense or care... A rhinoceros would run out of gas sooner than a lion... A town crier probably wouldn't chase you all the way into the grasslands outside city boundaries, but the city's guards would hunt you down until you're dead... Most mobs would probably lose sight of you over difficult terrain, but others may be able to track you...
Ideally... it would greatly vary according to NPC type, its location and surroundings, and the locations it could be potentially lured to.
But, that sounds like a heck of a lot of extra coding (I wouldn't know) for something that's a "would be nice to have" rather than a necessity. How important is this?
If the choice is plainly between a primitive form of leashing and chasing until aggro is lost, then personally, I have a strong preference for the latter. Kill it, die, zone... and to add two more options: fade, or gain a great distance between yourself and the mob.
Kilsin said:It's funny you should say that because by not leashing it can make clearing camps to get to named easier, just train the camp away, rest of group goes in easy mode to kill named and move on
If the group is capable of separating the named from the other mobs for purposes of a train, then they should be able to cherrypick the named without the train all the same. If it's important for that particular named, they could look at aggro-linking or mob-to-mob leashing.
People will be able to go back-and-forth on these kinds of scenarios with good arguments on both sides, so it's going to come down to personal preference, I think, and I suspect "Deal With It" would get the majority vote from the Pantheon crowd.
One request on any leashing: Please don't do it the EverQuest way where a leashed mob warps away. Let it wander or run back, but please, no magically teleporting mobs.
I prefer a combination:
stupid mobs -> leashing
Boss mobs, "hungry" mobs or mobs, which hates you because you killed so many of them -> much longer leashing or deal with it.
Deal with it could have a big disadvantage: if you can kite the mobs forever, you could kite them to a town and let the guards kill them for you. This could trivialize some boss fights.
Greetings
I also think a combination is best, if we can evolve on what EQ and VG gave us (no leashing and leashing - both worked very well for each game) and have a system where an angry wolf or bear would chase you to the death but a city or town guard may be smart enough to realise they are leaving their town at a disadvantage and return after a short while we could have the best of both mechanics.
Someone made that same analogy on Twitter too which I thought was cool as that was my personal take on it ;)
No leashing is a good way to do it since as you said, players will just run through mobs to get to a named mob if mobs are leashed in dungeons. One interesting aspect I've seen in FFXI was if a monster tracked players by scent after aggroing you could run through a small stream to stop the monster from being able to track you by scent. That was always a neat aspect when you had some accidental aggro. I agree that mobs losing interest or leashing in the end isn't worth it, but having certain mechanics players can use to shed aggro on certain occasions would be interesting and sometimes make sense such as the guards example.
Leashing needs to make sense, as Xaruk described. Each type of mob should have different characteristics, and it may even go farther as, maybe an orc will not stray too far from the group, but a lone Orc in the wilderness might go much farther.
I don't like the idea of "they chase until you or they are dead". How many times did we agro a mob just running through somewhere, imagine the trains one would have just traveling across the world.
Out-running an agressor, IS a tactic.
Most animals will only chase prey until they realise the energy expended outweights the benefit, or they wander too far from their pack and give up chase. The wild is a dangerous place, and even the Mobs should rely on numbers, environement and self-preservation.
I believe a combination of both would provide for a more dynamic game. I don't think mob encounters need to be so black and white.
Would a lich actually chase you from its dark sanctuary, then out into the daylight, and further still into the middle of a guarded town just because you took a swing at him? His leash would probably restrain him to the darkness. On the flip side a hungry troll might lumber after you endlessly thinking nothing more than to capture his next meal.
Leashing could provide complex and interesting tactics to combat. Black wolves might have group aggro and be leashed to their forest territory. You would not be able to make a single pull without effective CC and the wolf would not follow you through half the zone to where your group is safely camped. You would have to find positioning within the forest which may be further from the zone line and have more pathing mobs to watch out for. A rabid wolf on the other hand would have no leash and chase you down until one of you was dead. It becomes more about the mob and their intent as opposed to just simply kill or be killed.
An orc shaman could be leashed to stay within the range of his ritual site where he has a bonus to his color mana. His two flanking bodyguards might have close leashes making him harder to solo. Waves of grunts with no leashes would charge at you mercilessly preventing you from interrupting the shaman's spell.
Utilizing leashing in various forms with thought and purpose put into each encounter can make for more engaging and interesting combat without feeling like there is an easy escape for the player if things go bad.
I prefer no leashing. Yes, sometimes trains suck and if you are not the one who trained the mobs and die as a result of being in the way of the train, well I say so be it. I have met some great people who I became real-life friends with due to helping them out of an issue with them running with a huge train behind them (being a good Enchanter has its advantages…), and I wouldn’t of met these people if tethering would have been enabled in the game. However, I’m willing to compromise with some limited tethering or more accurately timing. As an example if I agro some mobs, but I don’t or can’t deal with them at the moment (for whatever reason…) and I choose to run and create a train, then the mobs chasing me should give up after a variable set of time and then go back to their starting spot. If they are not receiving any damage they should reset if they can’t catch me after x amount of time, I feel this is a good compromise.
Rint
I would originally say no leashing. But this depends squarely on the AI of these encounters. All dangers aside, no leashing could open the doors for encounters to be "abused" or "broken" unless these mobs can summon or enrage once a certain range is reached. I'm all for no leashing trying to run away and escape death from a botched pull or what have you. Leaving the doors open those glorious old-school trains is always a fun thing. However, encounters not resetting correctly, possible trolling, things of that nature are what concerns me.
1st of all ... do not implement any form of 'teleport back / reset if dist > leash dist' pls!
Beyond that, all mobs that are 'linked' (this includes a mob that shouts for help and gets some adds) will have 'knowledge' of this entity. If that head honcho has 2 guards and they have been 'missing' since chasing off some pesky adventurers an hour ago, he will send a runner to get him a replacement pair of bodyguards. Now, *if* you can intercept the messenger, great... if not you will have 2 guards strolling (possibly with a patrol in tow) to come back to the Head Honch where the 2 bodyguards will peel off and the patrol will go on its merry way.
Here the 'link' has created a check for the AI (as a task) periodically to ask itself 'is my linked mob here?'. If not, what do i do?
99% of the above posters have the rest right... base any 'leashing' on NPC criteria, not some arbitrary range.
PS: make sure zones have a reason to be there and mobs will stop at the zone (apart from some rare SUPER mobs that will cross the zone line hehe). Eg zone is at bridge crossing a river. Or gates to a town. Or some 'reasonable' criteria for mobs to stop at the zone boundary.
PPS I would like to see 'smarter' intelligence from creatures... Eg goblins that get out their bows if you kite them for more than 200 metres :)
I want my cake and to eat it too!
Some mob types leash, others do not, some groups of mobs are aggro linked and certain ones in the pack are extremely resistant to CC, others maybe call for help and pull everything nearby that's on the same faction on top of your group, some mobs summon at 100%, others enrage if you try to kite.
Let's mix it up, and make it brutal and require a dump truck full of different tactics to win encounters. I want to have to think and be careful.
I seem to recall early-days EQ being quite brutal....
Didn't CT in original PoF do an insta-death 32k dmg (Death touch?) to a random person every so often?
.... with modern gfx, you could really go to town with bits of the hapless fool exploding outwards and pelting his team-mates with chunks of this and that organs and viscera!
'Ewwww, did I just get hit in the face by Aradune's lungs!?'
Some short distance leashing, some long, some never. Rats shouldn't chase me forever but the kings elite guard will probably follow me to hell and back. Also, NO EQ2 ENCOUNTER-LINKED mobs. That's just lazy coding. Some mobs are social and should call out for help. Some don't. Pullers need to learn how to overcome obstacles and be an essential part of the group.
Side note: My AoE abilities should target an area and not be dependent on enouncter link / mob's friend list check. "You can hit these 2 guys here because they are facebook friends, but the guy standing right next to them is immune to your AoE attacks because he hasn't updated his facebook status yet." If they are in the area, they get hit. Period.
A mixture I guess. Just hope they allow all the older mechanics in there too. Like kiting etc.
I think zoning worked very well in EQ because the zones were so small. The Pantheon zones are much bigger in comparison and having to zone all the way across zone is a pain. I think zoning should be an option but a leash (a bit a long one) is needed. Also, if mobs are being leashed they should be able to call for help along the way. Bascailly, leashing should be an option but should have a consequence.
A mix of both would be ideal. It doesn't make sense to me that most creatures would chase you across a zone for an infinite time until you zone out, especially if zones are much bigger than EQ's. After a set amount of time where both entities have not landed a hit on each other and/or line of sight has been broken, the mob should give up. Only mindless zombies/rabid animals should chase you until they lose your scent, and maybe they'll find an easier victim along the chase and forget you.
I do agree it would be fun if trains were part of the game. I think it would be easy to fix it so it's much harder to leash in a dungeon as opposed to outdoors.
I want better mob AI. I want mobs to hunt you down or put off chasing based on logical inherent behaviors of their race or mob type. Should play in nicely with the NPC Dispositions and Behaviors in The Pantheon Difference.