Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Leashing or Deal With It?

    • 432 posts
    July 25, 2016 10:05 AM PDT

    Do you prefer mob leashing or once you aggro a mob you either kill it, die or zone?

     

    Hi Kilsin,

     

    Good thread you started, I wanted to chat about this also. I’ve played games which offer both and I can tell you from experience I would say ‘leashing’ is more ideal (but I’d like the chase-time to be random). Now ‘Agro deal-with-it’ makes sense for some mobs, but it doesn’t make sense for all mobs. That statement alone is enough to build into your AI archetypes right there.

    A group of Orc Raiders could be like a tightly knit family; they hunt together, deal with problems together: family first. If you agro one of them, or all of them, they will not stop until you are dead. In another situation a mother bear might chase you but will stop if they are getting too far away from their territory or their cubs.

    I think both Leashing and ‘Deal w/ It’ situations are valuable tools for you to design with.

    Why I think ‘agro and deal with it’ is not fun?

    When my goal is to get from point A to point B it takes me longer to run to the zone and then back. Running away doesn’t show skill to me, it wastes time. Running away from something is EASY to me. Everquest teaches you to run away, everyone knows where to run if something were to happen-it’s part of the atmosphere I guess, but it wasn’t as meaningful to me.

    How is running away for 6 minutes instead of 1.5 minute more meaningful?

    I can see the meaningfulness in ‘being chased by something scary’. But if I have a head-start and I know the thing chasing me can’t catch up to me it becomes a boring: ‘*sigh* it’s going to take me X amount of time to run back after zone loading times’.

     

    I feel a way to meet halfway is to have Archetypes for your AI in terms of how they treat threats which run away from them.

    Guards/Mother Bear/Bound undead: Will chase you a short distance but then return to what it is they are guarding or watching over or are spiritually tied to.

    Bandits/Raiders/Unbound undead: You are valuable to kill, be prepared to be chased forever, these npc’s value killing you more than anything else and some of them have an eternity to chase you.

     

    Keep in mind, the length of time being chased is something you can toy with per archetype. You could even make it a random length of time for those who leash.

     

    Thought of the day.

    How much ‘gameplay’ time do monks ‘save’ by using Feign Death vs the rest of us who have to run to zone and back?

     

    -Todd

    • 279 posts
    July 25, 2016 10:06 AM PDT

    Evoras said:

    I seem to recall early-days EQ being quite brutal....

    Didn't CT in original PoF do an insta-death 32k dmg (Death touch?) to a random person every so often?

    .... with modern gfx, you could really go to town with bits of the hapless fool exploding outwards and pelting his team-mates with chunks of this and that organs and viscera!

    'Ewwww, did I just get hit in the face by Aradune's lungs!?'

    45s timer on his main target

    Granted taunt was broke in that era, so you couldn't swap quick to have a stand in eat it.

    Worst case scenario when it was current though is he eats a couple tanks and you kill him before he kills you, the only risk was if you didn't stack enough DPS and the fight went on too long.

    If that mechanic wwas repeated against players with today's knowledge/understanding of MMOS it would not be be nearly as brutal as you remember it.

    • 1778 posts
    July 25, 2016 10:13 AM PDT
    Deal with it!!!!

    Yea you either kill it, zone it, or die.
    • 144 posts
    July 25, 2016 11:07 AM PDT

    Always a fine line between "fun" and "frustrating" but imo half the fun of orig. EQ is the danger and risk of agro radius and trying to get to a zone etc. if you did get agro 

    Might be nice if pathing back mobs were kind to ppl at other camps from trains that were unintentional or otherwise, but again, moving from trains and the pathing mobs coming back was/is part of the game for me and part of the excitement even if frustrating at times.

    I say no leash, if you agro, you deal with it, run for zone, get help, or die a hero style death trying. Keep the risk/reward and excitement in the game.


    This post was edited by Portalgun at July 25, 2016 11:09 AM PDT
    • 8 posts
    July 25, 2016 11:53 AM PDT

    Amsai said: Deal with it!!!! Yea you either kill it, zone it, or die.

    Do you remember old school XI where people would train to the entrance of CN and the mobs would slowly walk back killing everything along the way? Eventually they changed it so mobs warp back to prevent them wiping every exp camp along the way. As long as there are places to hide though I'm all for letting trains walk back to their spawn locations. Without some place to hide it tends to just cause an infinite train as exp groups get aggro and then they train it and zone and repeat. Then there is the whole problem of people intentionally griefing others etc.

    It's not a completely black and white issue, but I certainly lean more towards the deal with it approach. A lot of good ideas have been brought up in the thread so far.

    • 793 posts
    July 25, 2016 12:24 PM PDT

    Amsai said: Deal with it!!!! Yea you either kill it, zone it, or die.

     

    Do we know that there are hard zone lines? Are when people say zones, do they mean regions, soft zone lines. Games lately have very few "Loading...please wait" zones anymore.

     

     

    • 3016 posts
    July 25, 2016 12:24 PM PDT

    No leashing :)  The fun is in the challenge of surviving.  Knowing your surroundings,  being aware.  Know where the safe spots in the zone are....been there done that.   Looking forward to it again.   Run like heck to the zone out..and come out the other side with 3 hps remaining.   I lived!  hehe

    • 172 posts
    July 25, 2016 1:20 PM PDT

    For me it will depend on zone size.  In a smaller zone such as Crushbone in EQ1, let them chase.  In West Karana, should probably put a leash (long one) on them.

    My opinion:  it should be situational

    • 184 posts
    July 25, 2016 1:48 PM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Amsai said: Deal with it!!!! Yea you either kill it, zone it, or die.

     

    Do we know that there are hard zone lines? Are when people say zones, do they mean regions, soft zone lines. Games lately have very few "Loading...please wait" zones anymore.

     

     

    Did you watch the video? They showed the zone-line which when they crossed it gave a loading scrren, you can see the video here https://youtu.be/5oNVecHjiJI?t=3961 check out the time at 1 hour 6 minutes (1:06) which shows the group zoning into the next area through a hard zone line.

     

    Rint


    This post was edited by Rint at July 25, 2016 1:49 PM PDT
    • 243 posts
    July 25, 2016 2:02 PM PDT

    I agree with a lot of what has been said, I think it should be a mix between the two, and should depend on AI.  The momma bear analogy was a great exampt.  Traveling was difficult in EQ partly because mobs didn't leash, so you had to be careful when transiting an area, especially at night.  Making mobs "smarter" would be a great way to deal with it.  If you actually damage a mob, have it chase you longer than if you just got agro running by, etc.  Either way is acceptable to me, I think "deal with it" should be the norm, varied by certain circumstances.

    • 781 posts
    July 25, 2016 2:06 PM PDT

    JDNight said:

    For me it will depend on zone size.  In a smaller zone such as Crushbone in EQ1, let them chase.  In West Karana, should probably put a leash (long one) on them.

    My opinion:  it should be situational

    I am for no leash, smart AI the mob basically knowing when to turn around or if to just keep chasing you.  Bosses will usually have other mobs who will not leave their side, so that way they are never alone.  There is usually a pather as well, making you think the boss is alone.  Pull it i dare ya :) 

    Usually in large zones you knew where the pathing guards were so you ran the mob to the guards.  There was always some type of patrol out in the larger zones, you could even run them to some npc vendors and they would help you depending on your faction standing with them.  Smaller zones are pretty simple, just zone the mob.  LOL, don't run the chasing mob to a guard and you don't have the right faction, then you have more mobs on you,..haha, been there done that  Also there is mob to mob faction as well, you could run a chasing mob by a mob that hates the one chasing you and therefore that mob will pick up the fight and you just peel off.


    This post was edited by Kelem at July 25, 2016 2:09 PM PDT
    • 1778 posts
    July 25, 2016 2:53 PM PDT
    @ Arx

    Yea I remember. But I just saw it as part of the fun. Maybe thats just me though. Now if its an obvious griefer, thats a different case. However, in general I lean toward bring on the pain (too much Dark Souls?) But it seems like most folks want something in between anyways so Im probably over ruled.
    • 264 posts
    July 25, 2016 3:08 PM PDT

    Intelligent Huminoids that are of a Military Defensive or non aggressive Nature should be on a leash. Intelligent Huminoids that are Military Offensive or of an aggressive nature should not have a leash.

    I think most, not all, animal aggression would leashed, it would be aggression directed to you because they think their territorial rights, food source, or offspring are threatened; But some animals just want to eat you and may chase you to zone. 

    I think if you killed some woman out in the farmlands for her very cool robe, and she was the wife of a very friendly city guard, that city guard may chase you across zones.

    Some leashing has a place in my opinion if used right. I also would like to see a few surprises like the guard that chases your criminal butt to the ends of the earth because you decided to kill his family.

    Bosses and Mythical Entities would have custom AI. 


    This post was edited by Skycaster at July 25, 2016 3:12 PM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    July 25, 2016 3:33 PM PDT

    Fantastic replies folks, I love the thinking that has gone into many of them, good points for both sides too! :)

    • 781 posts
    July 25, 2016 4:10 PM PDT

    As far as running from a mob, wouldn't it depend on the mob itself ?  You could only run so far from a Hill Giant who only needs to take a few steps to catch up and overtake you.  A lion would run faster then a bear. A guard you could probably out run if you had SoW and he didn't but if the guard did then yeah you would probably be in a bind.  Most casters would probably be able to root or slow you, so there goes the idea of trying to zone it.  Depending on your gear check.  Leashing would mean that you would basically be able to outrun everything wouldnt it ?  sounds like an exploit doesnt it ?  How could you outrun a Hill Giant if you didn't have SoW ? or any fast moving animal for that matter.  If a guard has SoW and you didn't shouldnt that guard be able to overtake you before it reaches it's leash limit ?  Maybe i am just thinking too hard..lol

    • 25 posts
    July 25, 2016 5:44 PM PDT

    I like the good 'ol run to zone line to escape however this only works if there are zones.

     


    This post was edited by prongbuck at July 25, 2016 5:45 PM PDT
    • 107 posts
    July 25, 2016 6:51 PM PDT

    the idea of limiting leashing to zone lines is rather odd to me. it seems there is no other reason to make it that way except, 'eq did it that way.'

    if you really are for the no leash, then limit zoning while aggroed or have the mobs able to zone as well. i mean what sense is there that a mob will chase you for 45 minutes if you run away from the arbitrary (in the game world sense) zone line, but will stop in 20 seconds if you happent to run to the zone line?

    it seems much more realistic to have mobs leash at distances, no mob would chase another forever with no chance to ever lose the track even if you are out of sight.

    the varied distance seems most realistic, but it would be a rather complex especially if put in checks for line of sight, tracking skills, scent tracking for wolves, perhaps heat tracking for undead, etc.

     

    as an aside, FD for monks has always been odd to me. if i were fighting someone with the intent of killing him, and he just dropped dead, i would certainly put a skewer into him to be safe - ESPECIALLY since i am away that some people are able to fake their deaths. a pirate would certainly come to take his valuables, a ghoul would gnaw a little bit. maybe he FD and it fails, everything acts exactly as if it were successful with one exception, the mob investigates the corpse as always, but the mob instant kills him since he is completely defenseless.

    i mean, sure it would work on a bear, but a bear only attacks to protect her cubs or self or is scared.

    • 28 posts
    July 25, 2016 7:24 PM PDT

    I'm a huge fan of "deal with it" rather than leashing. To me, one of the joys of EQ is the infinite ways in which one can play the game. Swarm kiting, AEing, training mobs in a circle while your groupmates pick off a single mob --- none of these play styles is possible if you introduce leashing. I hate being limited in this regard.

    • 432 posts
    July 25, 2016 8:49 PM PDT

    Taliche said:

    I'm a huge fan of "deal with it" rather than leashing. To me, one of the joys of EQ is the infinite ways in which one can play the game. Swarm kiting, AEing, training mobs in a circle while your groupmates pick off a single mob --- none of these play styles is possible if you introduce leashing. I hate being limited in this regard.

     

     

    I have to say, training mobs in a circle while your groupmates pick off a single mob seems to make the CC job useless. Then again, I agree with the whole dark-souls mentality here. Everyone plays the game differently, when you structure too much it takes away the ability of the players coming up with different ways to tackle the environment. 

    Slipery slope, but I wanted to home in on something else somebody mentioned earlier. This 'deal-with-it' only works with 'zones'. Looking at the MMORPG's of today, most of them are 'zone-less'. Which sort of meant 'leashing' was necessary to a degree. Going back to zone-based game design we don't have to revert to anti-leash gameplay. Instead, measure out what 'good' has come from Leashing and then measure what makes sense for 'deal with it' situations.

    -Todd

     

    • 207 posts
    July 25, 2016 8:59 PM PDT
    I like a healthy mix of both depending on mob behaviors. It was always a rush trying to avoid mobs in high level areas, and if a mob spots you, using various tools to drop aggro. Personally I don't want zoning to drop aggro, but if you can break line of sight from the mob you should be able to use tools or magic to remove your scent to drop aggro.
    • 578 posts
    July 25, 2016 9:21 PM PDT

    I'd like to believe that not all mobs are created equal. And that each one would react to situations differently. With this some mobs would leash and some wouldn't.

    As I mentioned before I'd love to see faction worked in more with each and every mob and leashing/not-leashing could be one way to do it. Killing 1000s of Wild Jungle Lions could build bad faction with all Lions and could cause different behavior when engaging other Lions. Maybe if Player A has only killed a few Lions then the Lions will leash. But if Player A kills 1000s then the Lions won't leash.

    • 184 posts
    July 25, 2016 10:09 PM PDT

    tehtawd said:

    I have to say, training mobs in a circle while your groupmates pick off a single mob seems to make the CC job useless. Then again, I agree with the whole dark-souls mentality here. Everyone plays the game differently, when you structure too much it takes away the ability of the players coming up with different ways to tackle the environment. 

    -Todd

     

     

    I remember in EQ when Druids and a few other cast away classes couldn’t get groups depending on the zone they were in, and some creative Druids start forming groups with no tanks, CC, or clerics because none were around. The Druid would have a rag tag team of players who would let the Druid tag a mob with a bunch of dot’s and snare so he could maintain agro while the rest of his group would beat the hell out of the mob from behind while it chased the Druid. While this wasn’t the most efficient way to kill mobs it did allow other players to group together without the needed classes of the Trinity, and these players would level and participate in many zones that otherwise required the Trinity. I always thought of this as emergent gameplay that added value to many.

    Rint

    • 109 posts
    July 25, 2016 10:56 PM PDT

    Both. in dungeons. no leash.

    outside, mob based. a hungry bear might chase you to the end of time.

    Orcs might chase for a while, but wouldn't want to leave the camp unprotected for a long period of time and would give up after a good distance.

    But, No warping back home. they walk or run all the way back and can agro on anyone in its path.

    Zones size makes a big deciding factor here. EQ zones weren't all that big and zones not too far away. Not sure what size that zone is in the twitch video, but it looks Really Big.

    I would hate to run forever to zone. But, I think leashes should be pretty long in general.

    The fun would be not knowing which would leash, and which will not. I can see a skellie chasing you til you zone it or kill it or it kills you lol . He's already dead. he has nothing better to do haha.

    • 763 posts
    July 26, 2016 1:37 AM PDT

    Out-Front: Not keen on leashes (without a rationale) and HATE 'warp-back-to-spawn' (lazy) prgramming.

    IDEA: Instead of a (fixed) length leash... just define (i) aggro_dropoff_rate (ii) STA(mina) for mobs.

    Eg: You tag a mob / run past it ....

    Bear: since it has AI mode 'defending_nest' aggro_dropoff_rate = HIGH. Even though STA = High will still only chase a short distance (until 'effective' aggro = 0 based on dropoff rate.)

    Undead Guard: Since it has 'Undead_defender' AI mode, aggro_dropoff_rate = MED to HIGH. It has STA = Massive but will only chase a moderate distance since it is 'defending' a crypt.

    Undead Wanderer: It has 'Undead_wanderer' AM mode so aggro_dropoff_rate = V.LOW. It has STA = Massive and so will chase you until it runs out of aggro or STA, whichever comes first. Most likely it will lose 'track' of you (out of direct sight WILL reduce aggro temporarily.

    King of Trolls: Since you killed his son, AI_Mode switches to 'Bloody Revenge Mode' with Aggro_Dropoff_rate = V.Low.Indeed. It has STA = V.High so will chase you (with his guards) for a fair disctance until his STA gets low. Others attacking him, may peel off some Guards, but probably not him unless engaged in combat. When his STA is depleted, he will spawn 1-3 messengers to go run back to camp (while he walks back to regain STA) at which poiint they will spawn a set of 'hunters/trackers' to go take up the chae on the PC in question (and oucld possibly cross 1 zone boundary, say). At that point he will receive an entry into the 'Troll_Bounty_List' with a monetary value attached. Every time the player comes in contact with Trolls (or their allied mercenaries) there is a chance (based on size of the Bounty placed) that some 'Bounty_Collectors' will spawn (which may be loyay Trolls or Mercenaries). IF players could determine a way to view the 'Troll_Bounty_List' (would need high Troll faction) they could also try to collect the bounty via PvP (or some kind).

    Either way... animals would tend to have an 'effective leash' dependent on their AI_Mode (Hungry Lion might have V.Low aggro_dropoff _rate while one defending its lair would have V.High) and the 'ability' to chase you a certain distance based on their STAmina.

    This would take into account that, while Pantheon is to use zones, they WILL be much larger than EQ ones were.

    • 793 posts
    July 26, 2016 8:00 AM PDT

    Rint said:

    Fulton said:

    Amsai said: Deal with it!!!! Yea you either kill it, zone it, or die.

     

    Do we know that there are hard zone lines? Are when people say zones, do they mean regions, soft zone lines. Games lately have very few "Loading...please wait" zones anymore.

     

     

    Did you watch the video? They showed the zone-line which when they crossed it gave a loading scrren, you can see the video here https://youtu.be/5oNVecHjiJI?t=3961 check out the time at 1 hour 6 minutes (1:06) which shows the group zoning into the next area through a hard zone line.

     

    Rint

     

    Thanks... I had not seen that, I had to step away and when I returned they were inside fighting already.