DragonFist said:I didn't post anything directly regarding it because I see what you are trying to handling, but I do see that it would be very open to abuse. The average player isn't the problem. The griefer is the problem and unfortunately, they have a tendency to use rules intended to limit them against the average player. Even /report can be abused. Taunt and harass a player until he gets pissed off, being careful to never say a thing that actually violates the EUA. Then, when the harassed player blows up, /report them.
In this day in age, video recording tools can help bring some tools to players without even having them part of the game. But a voting system (which a reputation system winds up being) can be manipulated. Reputation works best as just that, a player's reputation based on word of mouth. Even that isn't perfect. But automating it can lead to "everyone in the guild down vote DudeWeHate" when some people in the guild never even met DudeWeHate and maybe it was just one instance where the guildmember was more at fault than DudeWeHate.
The thing is that it is just simply hard to police everything. There are behaviors that can't be policed even in real life where jail and worse are on the table. In a game, the worst that can happen is that you can't play the game anymore and even that can often be gotten around. So, the devs need to work to minimize the impact of game mechanics on that delicate balance of also not making a boring game. They also need to enforce as much as is reasonably possible, though that will never be perfect. And the rest of it is in game reputation and hoping that there are enough "average players" that don't enjoy griefing to make the game enjoyable on the whole and being thick-skinned enough to get past the times it happens.
There is "some" self policing that is helpful here...the /ignore feature. If you are that annoying and that obnoxious that you land on MY ignore, be prepared to become invisible and languish there forever. And I will make sure to inform any groups I am in..if you happen to pop into view, about just what kind of person you are ..(you being the generic you) but that will with time become obvious to a lot of people...that this person is just not someone you want to know or game with. :)
Cana
nscheffel said:There's no reason to make enemies chase players all the way across the zone. Real enemies would stop chasing someone as soon as they were satisfied they were no longer a threat.
Depends on the zone of course. If you are in a dungeon then I imagine mobs would chase you all the way to the zone, if you are near a camp/fort in an open zone they might not chase too far beyond the encampment (perhaps further the more hated you are in terms of faction) and the gate guards probably wouldn't chase beyond a very small area. Beasts/roaming mobs would depend on the type, some going all the way and others stopping somewhere along the way. Undead would for the most part run a player to the zone.
I'd support varying leashing like the above but failing that I'd prefer all mobs to run you to the zone.
How about having different versions of each creature, but witht he same visible name tag.
I.e. You pull a group of five orcs. Two are 'Orc Shamans', two are 'Orc Hunters', and one is a 'Orc Basher'. What if some of the shamans had DDs and heals, while others had DDs and root/snares? You would never know exactly what you were going to get when you pulled. Most of the Hunters would have a DD archer-shot spell, but a few might have a snare spell instead.
You would never know what you were getting. Pulling a group would always present a significant risk. Even if you pulled just one 'Orc Shaman' and one 'Orc Hunter', it would still entail some risk. Think of how this might change players behavior, without destroying all kiting in the game. This would make spells or items that removed debuffs very handy, and sought after.
You could make two different monsters in the database, each one with its own, unique ID, but with the same visible ID tag. Give each one the same looks and stats, just different spell/ability lines.
CanadinaXegony said:DragonFist said:I didn't post anything directly regarding it because I see what you are trying to handling, but I do see that it would be very open to abuse. The average player isn't the problem. The griefer is the problem and unfortunately, they have a tendency to use rules intended to limit them against the average player. Even /report can be abused. Taunt and harass a player until he gets pissed off, being careful to never say a thing that actually violates the EUA. Then, when the harassed player blows up, /report them.
In this day in age, video recording tools can help bring some tools to players without even having them part of the game. But a voting system (which a reputation system winds up being) can be manipulated. Reputation works best as just that, a player's reputation based on word of mouth. Even that isn't perfect. But automating it can lead to "everyone in the guild down vote DudeWeHate" when some people in the guild never even met DudeWeHate and maybe it was just one instance where the guildmember was more at fault than DudeWeHate.
The thing is that it is just simply hard to police everything. There are behaviors that can't be policed even in real life where jail and worse are on the table. In a game, the worst that can happen is that you can't play the game anymore and even that can often be gotten around. So, the devs need to work to minimize the impact of game mechanics on that delicate balance of also not making a boring game. They also need to enforce as much as is reasonably possible, though that will never be perfect. And the rest of it is in game reputation and hoping that there are enough "average players" that don't enjoy griefing to make the game enjoyable on the whole and being thick-skinned enough to get past the times it happens.
There is "some" self policing that is helpful here...the /ignore feature. If you are that annoying and that obnoxious that you land on MY ignore, be prepared to become invisible and languish there forever. And I will make sure to inform any groups I am in..if you happen to pop into view, about just what kind of person you are ..(you being the generic you) but that will with time become obvious to a lot of people...that this person is just not someone you want to know or game with. :)
Cana
I agree with you. Community "policing" is, at least to some degree, effective. It has its limits when dealing with those that don't care but, also, those types of people fortunately are in a relatively small minority. Though it doesn't feel that way when you encounter them. There are millions of decent drivers on the road, but one tends to remember, and fixate on, the guy that cut them off.
I am leaning towards "deal with it" but I think there is plenty of room for leashed mobs in certain situations. MMOs today go too far by having everything on very short leashes...at least make players sweat a little if they aggro something dangerous. Make the leash longer and put some extra mechanics on the slow moving mobs. Spiders that web you (root) snakes that poison you (snare + DoT) skeletons that throw an arm bone at you (lol why not?). Part of what makes the new MMORPGs so easy is that even if somehow you are losing a fight you can run a short distance and reset it.
OneForAll said:
Make FD fail unless the mobs you are pulling have someone else on their hate table other than you. That way if you FD next to a group that you are not part of with mobs on your ass, they will at least gun right for you and take you down before moving on to anyone else. If you are grouped, the mobs should default to your group members. If you are solo...why would a mob believe that you just dropped down dead and walk away anyway?
This makes FD useless to a monk in a solo situation and makes FD training much more costly, but retains its group utility for pulling.
I agree, though it should probably be possible solo if you are extremely low on health. Would like to add to that the fail check should be against every mob on the agro table making success outcome less likely the more mobs you have on you.
I'm leaning towards the thought tht it is going to be a "deal with it" scenario for the following reason, although there may be a certain amount of leashing.
They've said that the world is a dangerous place, and may, in some cases, try to kill you. I'm not talking about just mobs coming for you. I'm talking areas that will debuff, de-health, and de-mana you. In one of the streams they go through an area not far from Thronefast that knocks down their health, their mana, and even does a movement debuff on them. The area wiped the wholer party before they could even run through it. That's where the various situational gear and items comes in handy. There will be items that can protect you from these sorts of things.
When they said that this game was going to be PvE, they weren't just talking about the mobs. They really did mean the environment.
Food for thought:
I'm definitely old school when it comes to leashing, kiting, etc... i.e. deal with it. However, there were one or two times *wink* *wink* where I MAY have used the ability to train to my advantage back in EQ. The scneario went like this:
- You know Sarnaks and Goblins hate each other.
- You know that particular named Sarnak can see through invis, but that pack of goblins over there cannot.
- You pop invis and run said Sarnak through said goblins - and wait for them to almost kill him before he completely kills them.
- Finish off the named Sarnak, profit.
To me - I was exploiting the ability to train there to my advantage...
Any thoughts on the ability to do things like this being enabled by the aiblity to train mobs?
Wandidar said:Food for thought:
I'm definitely old school when it comes to leashing, kiting, etc... i.e. deal with it. However, there were one or two times *wink* *wink* where I MAY have used the ability to train to my advantage back in EQ. The scneario went like this:
- You know Sarnaks and Goblins hate each other.
- You know that particular named Sarnak can see through invis, but that pack of goblins over there cannot.
- You pop invis and run said Sarnak through said goblins - and wait for them to almost kill him before he completely kills them.
- Finish off the named Sarnak, profit.
To me - I was exploiting the ability to train there to my advantage...
Any thoughts on the ability to do things like this being enabled by the aiblity to train mobs?
It would be kind of cool if certain kinds of those situations were planned when making the game. Say a difficult quest where the player can discover something like that.
As for the actual topic It would be nice if leashing or not is dependant on the particular creature. It would also be nice if certain creatures might react to having another mob following you. Take this situation:
- I attract a big dumb ogre who is guarding a orc leader. He's too stupid to see that he can't catch up and doesn't think about giving up the chase, he doesn't leash.
- An orc poisoner sees big dumb ogre and looks to see why the ogre is running and sees me. Thinking that by helping out one of his captain's bodyguards he might win favor he joins in the pursuit. The first one finds out he can't catch up and leashes back after a bit but I attract a second one a bit late. He's a rather good runner and eventually catches up and slows me down with a poisoned blade giving the ogre time to catch up.
Having nothing leash is kind of boring, makes the AI look unintelligent and can make it possible get certain stronger monsters away from a pack. Having everything leash and even worse if it's the same distance makes things too predicatble and safe. A good mixture allows for the creatures to be properly set based on game needs and the creatures intellegence. It means you can't just attack any random creature and run a short distance if your attack didn't do as much damage as you thought it should.
Even better if leashing or not was more dynamic, An orc party that barely got touched might leash back relatively easily. An orc party where you killed a member of their party might just give chase for a longer distance or not leash at all.
I think leashing and unleashed should depend on a number of things but should not be one or the other, so make some that are leashed and others that are not. For normal, every day mobs, this could be random at spawn time, for more important mobs or area specific mobs, then it should depend.
Also make it more AI aware, for instance, a single mob, would become bored and stop. A group of mobs would logically try a bit harder to catch you, slow you down etc. Mobs on guard duty at a castle are much less likely to run for miles and more likely to raise the alarm and send out a bunch of knights after you on horse back (yeah I know)!
I also dont see the point of mobs with exactly the same speed as the players, so they are always the same distance behind. Make some faster and others slower. The slower ones give up and return once they get too far behind. Make it more heart racing to have to zone but not impossible. Make it varied and not predicatble.
So make it varied, unpredicatable and exciting. :)
Wandidar said:Food for thought:
I'm definitely old school when it comes to leashing, kiting, etc... i.e. deal with it. However, there were one or two times *wink* *wink* where I MAY have used the ability to train to my advantage back in EQ. The scneario went like this:
- You know Sarnaks and Goblins hate each other.
- You know that particular named Sarnak can see through invis, but that pack of goblins over there cannot.
- You pop invis and run said Sarnak through said goblins - and wait for them to almost kill him before he completely kills them.
- Finish off the named Sarnak, profit.
To me - I was exploiting the ability to train there to my advantage...
Any thoughts on the ability to do things like this being enabled by the aiblity to train mobs?
Nothing wrong with doing that in pve...against the mobs, proving that you are smarter than the AI. :)
CanadinaXegony said:Wandidar said:Food for thought:
I'm definitely old school when it comes to leashing, kiting, etc... i.e. deal with it. However, there were one or two times *wink* *wink* where I MAY have used the ability to train to my advantage back in EQ. The scneario went like this:
- You know Sarnaks and Goblins hate each other.
- You know that particular named Sarnak can see through invis, but that pack of goblins over there cannot.
- You pop invis and run said Sarnak through said goblins - and wait for them to almost kill him before he completely kills them.
- Finish off the named Sarnak, profit.
To me - I was exploiting the ability to train there to my advantage...
Any thoughts on the ability to do things like this being enabled by the aiblity to train mobs?
Nothing wrong with doing that in pve...against the mobs, proving that you are smarter than the AI. :)
Yeah, that was one of the mechanics that I missed even in later game EQ.
jexx said:I think it varies and depends on the mob, what it is guarding, what the environment is around it, etc. I hope there are cases for both in various dungeons.
-Jexxy
I agree. I'd love to see a much more granular approach to AI and leashing. Having all mobs chase you until you zone isn't really all that "realistic" but having all mobs reset and run back at a set distance is just plain boring. Having guards go back to their post after a somewhat randomized distance (maybe an algorythm based on hate toward the chased against importance of the guarding post and the "cowardice" of the guard. Zombies might be slow but don't give up, but they might be easily distracted by other "prey". Deer and such may almost never chase one, but, instead run (though a buck defending its herd might be a bit more tenacious). Hell, maybe in some cases, a hunting party of gnolls might even cross the zone-line to chase you out of their lair and a fair bit after that.
DragonFist said:jexx said:I think it varies and depends on the mob, what it is guarding, what the environment is around it, etc. I hope there are cases for both in various dungeons.
-Jexxy
I agree. I'd love to see a much more granular approach to AI and leashing. Having all mobs chase you until you zone isn't really all that "realistic" but having all mobs reset and run back at a set distance is just plain boring. Having guards go back to their post after a somewhat randomized distance (maybe an algorythm based on hate toward the chased against importance of the guarding post and the "cowardice" of the guard. Zombies might be slow but don't give up, but they might be easily distracted by other "prey". Deer and such may almost never chase one, but, instead run (though a buck defending its herd might be a bit more tenacious). Hell, maybe in some cases, a hunting party of gnolls might even cross the zone-line to chase you out of their lair and a fair bit after that.
What about after a mob or group of mobs stops chasing you and starts to return to their area, they stop and set up an ambush of you as you or your party are returning along what you think is a safe path? :)
Holywind said:DragonFist said:jexx said:I think it varies and depends on the mob, what it is guarding, what the environment is around it, etc. I hope there are cases for both in various dungeons.
-Jexxy
I agree. I'd love to see a much more granular approach to AI and leashing. Having all mobs chase you until you zone isn't really all that "realistic" but having all mobs reset and run back at a set distance is just plain boring. Having guards go back to their post after a somewhat randomized distance (maybe an algorythm based on hate toward the chased against importance of the guarding post and the "cowardice" of the guard. Zombies might be slow but don't give up, but they might be easily distracted by other "prey". Deer and such may almost never chase one, but, instead run (though a buck defending its herd might be a bit more tenacious). Hell, maybe in some cases, a hunting party of gnolls might even cross the zone-line to chase you out of their lair and a fair bit after that.
What about after a mob or group of mobs stops chasing you and starts to return to their area, they stop and set up an ambush of you as you or your party are returning along what you think is a safe path? :)
That'd be fun, definitely surprising the first time it happened. In general it'd be cool if mobs retained some memories of past runins with players...
Leashing based on "Standings", kill a LOT of them? they never stop coming at ya, you get the idea
Holywind said:DragonFist said:jexx said:I think it varies and depends on the mob, what it is guarding, what the environment is around it, etc. I hope there are cases for both in various dungeons.
-Jexxy
I agree. I'd love to see a much more granular approach to AI and leashing. Having all mobs chase you until you zone isn't really all that "realistic" but having all mobs reset and run back at a set distance is just plain boring. Having guards go back to their post after a somewhat randomized distance (maybe an algorythm based on hate toward the chased against importance of the guarding post and the "cowardice" of the guard. Zombies might be slow but don't give up, but they might be easily distracted by other "prey". Deer and such may almost never chase one, but, instead run (though a buck defending its herd might be a bit more tenacious). Hell, maybe in some cases, a hunting party of gnolls might even cross the zone-line to chase you out of their lair and a fair bit after that.
What about after a mob or group of mobs stops chasing you and starts to return to their area, they stop and set up an ambush of you as you or your party are returning along what you think is a safe path? :)
That would be great. There might be limits to scripting this kind of activity, but if it can be done efficiently, I'd love it.
lancaster said:Leashing based on "Standings", kill a LOT of them? they never stop coming at ya, you get the idea
Yes indeed...that means pay attention, stay alert. Or suffer the consequences. hehehe (that sounds evil doesn't it..but it does make for thinking gamers...not Leeroy Jenkins types.)
Cana
Kilsin said:Garmr said:Deal with it kid. No entitled, bubbled wrapped, everyone get a trophy here!
Now get off my lawn.
It's funny you should say that because by not leashing it can make clearing camps to get to named easier, just train the camp away, rest of group goes in easy mode to kill named and move on, there are many arguments for both sides but it cannot be called "bubble wrapped" by any means, both have pros and cons but it comes down to the game, the AI and how it is implemented, EQ has no leashing, VG had leashing both worked very well in each game and both were difficult in different ways.
Also edited your post for avoiding the profanity filter, which is a breach of forum guidelines.
This is an interesting response Kilsin.
Here it the thing, if mob kill time is "slow" (ie it isn't in seconds and more akin to several minutes to kill a mob, longer for a boss mob), than the idea of simply training off the mobs around it or near it is ineffective. In fact, this never occured in EQ that I experienced for that very reason, other than in very specific circumstances. That is, there was a way my guild figured out how to kill Tunare in the Plane of Growth using a somewhat similar tactic. There was a special tree boss mob (I can't remember his name, ancient? I am not sure) that if you attacked him, he would call all mobs too him in the zone. Tunare would also do this, which is why most raids would have to do a zone clear to be able to take on Tunare.
But... if you were to have a clever and skilled druid/bard to agro him and keep him focused, he would call out to the zone for all mobs to assist and would chase the person agroing, which... would allow the raid to focus on pulling Tunare to kill her.
So, this did work under specific situations, but is was GREATLY limited and never did I see this work well in EQ for other than events as I described due to the nature of the game for group content.
Point is, if a group other than specific situations above (which lets be honest, they are paying for in skill/attendance) tries to drag away the mobs in a boss event, it is either "strategy"(ie a reasonable solution to an event as I described above) or not possible in the realms such game play as the mobs would come back fast enough to cause the group issue. This ofcourse depends on mob fights not being mere seconds to kill a mob (which would kill the consequence aspect of mobs returning) and at that point, the game is just a modern iteration and so who cares anyway, right?
Leashing but have the range of Aggro longer than WoW / Other MMO's. Also there should be a punishment for having to run away. Maybe something like "X Mob has gained courage watching you run away" etc.. And they will be a little bit harder for you to take down. Just you though or that would be a simple way to grief newbies / others.