Shucklighter said:If you're RPing on an RP server and someone inspects you without permission, wouldn't you just react to that offense in character? If I'm waiting on line in a store and a random person behind me decides to reach into my shirt and pull out the tag to see what I'm wearing, there's no forcefield or law of nature to prevent that from happening. Sure, that person may face social and/or legal consequences, but that's afterward. I could also be hyper-vigilant and extra careful about letting people get close enough to have a chance to do that, I suppose, but that's up to me as an individual.
I dont disagree with this at all, percectly reasonable to respond in RP...but that isnt what happened on the RP server.
but when in rome....as they say
At this point I would not be surprised if Kilsin considers locking this thread.
Seems like some are forgetting that this is a developer forum, intended to help the community and the developers maintain open channels of communication so that we, the early access community and supporters, can offer ideas and express concerns.
Can we have a cease fire on the "shots fired" posting throughout the forum? It does nothing whatsoever to help the dev team, and I am sure they are tired of seeiing it and of having to sift through through it to find and benefit from the helpful posts in order to help us have a better game at release.
If there is an opinion that anyone disikes or disagrees with, no need to get snippy or ambiguously rude, just explain why a post or suggestion has validty or not. If anyone here thinks anyone else is that intolerable, there is an ignore feature on this forum too
Portalgun said:At this point I would not be surprised if Kilsin considers locking this thread.
Seems like some are forgetting that this is a developer forum, intended to help the community and the developers maintain open channels of communication so that we, the early access community and supporters, can offer ideas and express concerns.
Can we have a cease fire on the "shots fired" posting throughout the forum? It does nothing whatsoever to help the dev team, and I am sure they are tired of seeiing it and of having to sift through through it to find and benefit from the helpful posts in order to help us have a better game at release.
If there is an opinion that anyone disikes or disagrees with, no need to get snippy or ambiguously rude, just explain why a post or suggestion has validty or not. If anyone here thinks anyone else is that intolerable, there is an ignore feature on this forum too
This.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that by allowing a toggle feature everybody can be accomodated regarding this topic. I don't think anybody has disagreed with that. Case closed?
Tatertoad said:I'm fine with a toggle for inspect.
I am however opposed to a website that catelogues your gear, or the gear score rankings in other games. If I liked that sort of thing, there are plenty of games I could be playing now.
How would you even go about avoiding that? The only way I can see it happening is by gear just not having stats at all.
Magelo works with 100% manual input. If the gear has stats there will likely be a website where you can set up character profiles, and I imagine there will be a leaderboard for things like HP and AC as a result.
This is a friendly reminder to keep on the topic of "To Inspect or not to Inspect...", we already have threads discussing 3rd party information sites like Magelo, Pantheon101 etc. and I am frankly surprised that this topic has reached 7 pages, but it will be closed if the off-topic discussion continues.
This is an opinion based thread and not everyone will agree with each other, that doesn't mean we need to break off into micro battles with each other, just state your opinion, discuss the topic in a mature manner and then leave when you have had enough, it isn't the end of the world if someone disagrees with you on the internet! :)
I was on Erollisi Marr server in EQ and it did become the norm to ask before inspecting, this was just a learned thing by seeing how others interact. I followed suite but it never was anything you would reallly see someone get upset by if it didnt happen. I went back to P99 and i have become (by accident) a serial inspecter lol... i do a lot of right click camera control and i seem to be forever inspecting people by accident, i should probably have a "sorry about the inspect" macro setup lol.
I personally would have no issue with someone inspecting me with or without asking, knowing (more so after reading this thread) that it is somthing that makes people uncomfortable i would only ask that maybe inspecting be a command that takes 2 clicks instead of one so you have to mean to do it and dont create accidental waves for no reason.
I think inspecting should be an included feature in game and asking is just treated as etiquette, if someone doesnt like it they can just ask if the person refrain from inspecting them. Or as others have stated a toggle on inspecting wouldnt hurt, It would be sad if inspecting was not included because i think it is such a great way to learn about items you havent yet discovered / heard of as well as show off your latest addition to your equipment. I used to check out peoples items and then ask them if they minded telling me where they looted them, this gave me somthing to continue working towards and motivation to explore a particular area or form up a group for a dungeon etc.
Hokanu said:I was on Erollisi Marr server in EQ and it did become the norm to ask before inspecting, this was just a learned thing by seeing how others interact. I followed suite but it never was anything you would reallly see someone get upset by if it didnt happen. I went back to P99 and i have become (by accident) a serial inspecter lol... i do a lot of right click camera control and i seem to be forever inspecting people by accident, i should probably have a "sorry about the inspect" macro setup lol.
I personally would have no issue with someone inspecting me with or without asking, knowing (more so after reading this thread) that it is somthing that makes people uncomfortable i would only ask that maybe inspecting be a command that takes 2 clicks instead of one so you have to mean to do it and dont create accidental waves for no reason.
I think inspecting should be an included feature in game and asking is just treated as etiquette, if someone doesnt like it they can just ask if the person refrain from inspecting them. Or as others have stated a toggle on inspecting wouldnt hurt, It would be sad if inspecting was not included because i think it is such a great way to learn about items you havent yet discovered / heard of as well as show off your latest addition to your equipment. I used to check out peoples items and then ask them if they minded telling me where they looted them, this gave me somthing to continue working towards and motivation to explore a particular area or form up a group for a dungeon etc.
This is actually part of the problem with inspecting, your able to learn things about the game that the player your inspecting figured out. This is game dependent, and I don't know how this will work in pantheon, or what type of gear system it will have, but say I figured out that Buff A applied to a specific gear gives an unknown effect. I may not wish to share that information, but here you come along an just inspect me and get it for free, and then run wiki to share with the world.
HemlockReaper said:Hokanu said:I was on Erollisi Marr server in EQ and it did become the norm to ask before inspecting, this was just a learned thing by seeing how others interact. I followed suite but it never was anything you would reallly see someone get upset by if it didnt happen. I went back to P99 and i have become (by accident) a serial inspecter lol... i do a lot of right click camera control and i seem to be forever inspecting people by accident, i should probably have a "sorry about the inspect" macro setup lol.
I personally would have no issue with someone inspecting me with or without asking, knowing (more so after reading this thread) that it is somthing that makes people uncomfortable i would only ask that maybe inspecting be a command that takes 2 clicks instead of one so you have to mean to do it and dont create accidental waves for no reason.
I think inspecting should be an included feature in game and asking is just treated as etiquette, if someone doesnt like it they can just ask if the person refrain from inspecting them. Or as others have stated a toggle on inspecting wouldnt hurt, It would be sad if inspecting was not included because i think it is such a great way to learn about items you havent yet discovered / heard of as well as show off your latest addition to your equipment. I used to check out peoples items and then ask them if they minded telling me where they looted them, this gave me somthing to continue working towards and motivation to explore a particular area or form up a group for a dungeon etc.
This is actually part of the problem with inspecting, your able to learn things about the game that the player your inspecting figured out. This is game dependent, and I don't know how this will work in pantheon, or what type of gear system it will have, but say I figured out that Buff A applied to a specific gear gives an unknown effect. I may not wish to share that information, but here you come along an just inspect me and get it for free, and then run wiki to share with the world.
Yeah thats a good point and that PoV is totally fair, i can understand that someone who has figured somthing new out may not want it shared if it gives them a competative edge, i tend to be more in the camp of getting overly excited about my new find and letting everyone know who cares to listen! haha
I'd like to be able to inspect. I don't mind asking though, if that's the favored etiquette.
There were some saying that inspecting can be a tool to bully people and of course, it can. Others say, that good players shouldn't be unfairly judged by their gear alone, of course not.
But then there is also the other side: there will be always people who are really not putting any effort in their gear. Hiding inspection is a godsent for people like that. Be it people who are running around with starter gear in their 30th, or people in endgame who want to jump to different content directly bypassing the means to equip them before.
And If I am the unlucky healer who has to heal such people in my group and maybe even get blamed for not pulling my weight despite I am healing myself a carpal tunnel syndrome! Then I really want to be able to inspect them.
Duffy said:I'd like to be able to inspect. I don't mind asking though, if that's the favored etiquette.
There were some saying that inspecting can be a tool to bully people and of course, it can. Others say, that good players shouldn't be unfairly judged by their gear alone, of course not.
But then there is also the other side: there will be always people who are really not putting any effort in their gear. Hiding inspection is a godsent for people like that. Be it people who are running around with starter gear in their 30th, or people in endgame who want to jump to different content directly bypassing the means to equip them before.
And If I am the unlucky healer who has to heal such people in my group and maybe even get blamed for not pulling my weight despite I am healing myself a carpal tunnel syndrome! Then I really want to be able to inspect them.
People are forgetting that in Pantheon you will be able to see the gear on the character, hiding it like that would have been easier in games that allow appearance gear (another reason why I dislike it) but in Pantheon, if you're wearing a bronze chest plate and green hide leggings with a wooden staff of healing and you're a Cleric who keeps dying a lot, your group will know why whether you have /inspect on or off ;)
Either way, it is a personal preference and again, having the ability to block prying eyes is something a lot of people like, myself included, if I don't want anyone looking at my gear, I should be able to turn that feature off no matter what my reasons are for it, it's my gear, my stats, my character, if someone tries to inspect me and it says, this person has private mode turned on, then bad luck lol
If that gets me kicked from groups then so be it, they will miss out on an experienced player who wants to have a bit of character privacy and be judged on their actions/interactions, not their gear and stats. :)
Funny enough, this is coming from a guild and raid leader who found it annoying to ask people to turn /anon off in VG so I could check gear to make sure we had enough dps and healing power to take down some top tier targets for the Reverence PUG that I used to host with my guild but it never resulted in people getting kicked or failing attempts so it really isn't a big deal.
One minor feature of the EQ1 inspection (and maybe VG, I cannot recall), was that inspecting did not give you all of the information. When you inspected someone’s gear you only saw the item's name and icon. If you wanted to see the item's stats, you had to ask the person to link it to you in chat. That minor nuance helped make the system more social.
Kilsin said:People are forgetting that in Pantheon you will be able to see the gear on the character, hiding it like that would have been easier in games that allow appearance gear (another reason why I dislike it) but in Pantheon, if you're wearing a bronze chest plate and green hide leggings with a wooden staff of healing and you're a Cleric who keeps dying a lot, your group will know why whether you have /inspect on or off ;)
Either way, it is a personal preference and again, having the ability to block prying eyes is something a lot of people like, myself included, if I don't want anyone looking at my gear, I should be able to turn that feature off no matter what my reasons are for it, it's my gear, my stats, my character, if someone tries to inspect me and it says, this person has private mode turned on, then bad luck lolIf that gets me kicked from groups then so be it, they will miss out on an experienced player who wants to have a bit of character privacy and be judged on their actions/interactions, not their gear and stats. :)
Funny enough, this is coming from a guild and raid leader who found it annoying to ask people to turn /anon off in VG so I could check gear to make sure we had enough dps and healing power to take down some top tier targets for the Reverence PUG that I used to host with my guild but it never resulted in people getting kicked or failing attempts so it really isn't a big deal.
Well, but it might not always be so obvious that people wear hideous stuff. Of course, if someones pants are missing it's easy to tell, but what about rings or stuff not rendered? Maybe wearing rings is even more important than wearing pants (aesthetics aside).
But don't mistake me: I am by no means someone who will kick someone OR desert their group when things go downhill. And I am also not overly critical and I'll stick to my group till the end.
It's just that I feel that courtesy is no one way route: when somebody joins a group because something can't be done alone, the 'it's my gear, my stats, my character' idea should fall behind because you're no solo character any more. When you give your alt bulky waste to wear and go adventuring, then yeah, you pushed your limits and failed or not. But joining a group with gear like that WILL make life harder for everybody and I think it's a bit unfair to not tell them that upfront. You might enjoy yourself a great deal but are completely unaware of how much strain you put on your healer or tank because your gear could have been complete and/or appropriate for level and class, while it was not. And they might even be too polite to say that healing or tanking was a complete nightmare and they were far from enjoying themselves as the rest of the group said they were to not be the killjoy.
Kilsin said:People are forgetting that in Pantheon you will be able to see the gear on the character, hiding it like that would have been easier in games that allow appearance gear (another reason why I dislike it) but in Pantheon, if you're wearing a bronze chest plate and green hide leggings with a wooden staff of healing and you're a Cleric who keeps dying a lot, your group will know why whether you have /inspect on or off ;)
First, I'll say that this sounds AWESOME. I love the idea that every piece of gear would have a unique graphic. That being said, I'm going to reserve about 2 truckloads of skepticism that it actually gets implimented that way.
The dev crew keeps repeating that they want content, content, and then some content. They don't want people feeling as though they have to go to that dungeon, to get that best-in-slot breastplate. They want multiple places that a group can go to get comparable items. Extrapolate that to multiple dungeons of a given level range, multiple mobs dropping comparable loot for multiple slots. Now add in that crafters are said to be able to create either the same gear or crafted items that can compete with drops.... That's a hell of a lot of art to create for gear, and a hell of a lot of memory to consume to render it all when there are lots of choices for every slot, particularly in places where it's hoped that there will be lots of people around for socialization.
I know this seems off topic, but if your argument is that /inspect is rather unnecessary because people will be able to look at you and just know, I'd argue that's optomistic at best. If for no other reason than if there actually is a different graphic for every item in the game then it's unlikely many people will know what they all look like. At least I would hope that would be the case, or the gear choices are not nearly as plentiful as what I'm hoping to see implimented.
It's a hell of a lot easier to create a new item in the database and apply an existing graphic, than it is to create new graphics for that new item. Every game reuses assets.
Duffy said:Kilsin said:People are forgetting that in Pantheon you will be able to see the gear on the character, hiding it like that would have been easier in games that allow appearance gear (another reason why I dislike it) but in Pantheon, if you're wearing a bronze chest plate and green hide leggings with a wooden staff of healing and you're a Cleric who keeps dying a lot, your group will know why whether you have /inspect on or off ;)
Either way, it is a personal preference and again, having the ability to block prying eyes is something a lot of people like, myself included, if I don't want anyone looking at my gear, I should be able to turn that feature off no matter what my reasons are for it, it's my gear, my stats, my character, if someone tries to inspect me and it says, this person has private mode turned on, then bad luck lolIf that gets me kicked from groups then so be it, they will miss out on an experienced player who wants to have a bit of character privacy and be judged on their actions/interactions, not their gear and stats. :)
Funny enough, this is coming from a guild and raid leader who found it annoying to ask people to turn /anon off in VG so I could check gear to make sure we had enough dps and healing power to take down some top tier targets for the Reverence PUG that I used to host with my guild but it never resulted in people getting kicked or failing attempts so it really isn't a big deal.
Well, but it might not always be so obvious that people wear hideous stuff. Of course, if someones pants are missing it's easy to tell, but what about rings or stuff not rendered? Maybe wearing rings is even more important than wearing pants (aesthetics aside).
But don't mistake me: I am by no means someone who will kick someone OR desert their group when things go downhill. And I am also not overly critical and I'll stick to my group till the end.
It's just that I feel that courtesy is no one way route: when somebody joins a group because something can't be done alone, the 'it's my gear, my stats, my character' idea should fall behind because you're no solo character any more. When you give your alt bulky waste to wear and go adventuring, then yeah, you pushed your limits and failed or not. But joining a group with gear like that WILL make life harder for everybody and I think it's a bit unfair to not tell them that upfront. You might enjoy yourself a great deal but are completely unaware of how much strain you put on your healer or tank because your gear could have been complete and/or appropriate for level and class, while it was not. And they might even be too polite to say that healing or tanking was a complete nightmare and they were far from enjoying themselves as the rest of the group said they were to not be the killjoy.
Well that will just come down to the social interactions, group play and nature of our community, you folks can choose to reject someone based on their gear, or help them run through a dungeon with the possibility of getting better gear, no one will start out max level in uber gear, everyone will need help from others whether it be complete strangers, friends, guild members etc. so I really wouldn;t worry about that, it would be the minority and not an overwhelming issue in my opinion.
Not being able to see little things like rings that give the smallest stat boost possible should never be the deciding factor in who gets a group position over someone else unless you are at the bleeding edge of high-end raiding and struggling on a progression target where every single % and point of stats and dps counts, that again will be the very small minority, not a general issue for everyone to worry about. :)
Feyshtey said:Kilsin said:People are forgetting that in Pantheon you will be able to see the gear on the character, hiding it like that would have been easier in games that allow appearance gear (another reason why I dislike it) but in Pantheon, if you're wearing a bronze chest plate and green hide leggings with a wooden staff of healing and you're a Cleric who keeps dying a lot, your group will know why whether you have /inspect on or off ;)
First, I'll say that this sounds AWESOME. I love the idea that every piece of gear would have a unique graphic. That being said, I'm going to reserve about 2 truckloads of skepticism that it actually gets implimented that way.
The dev crew keeps repeating that they want content, content, and then some content. They don't want people feeling as though they have to go to that dungeon, to get that best-in-slot breastplate. They want multiple places that a group can go to get comparable items. Extrapolate that to multiple dungeons of a given level range, multiple mobs dropping comparable loot for multiple slots. Now add in that crafters are said to be able to create either the same gear or crafted items that can compete with drops.... That's a hell of a lot of art to create for gear, and a hell of a lot of memory to consume to render it all when there are lots of choices for every slot, particularly in places where it's hoped that there will be lots of people around for socialization.
I know this seems off topic, but if your argument is that /inspect is rather unnecessary because people will be able to look at you and just know, I'd argue that's optomistic at best. If for no other reason than if there actually is a different graphic for every item in the game then it's unlikely many people will know what they all look like. At least I would hope that would be the case, or the gear choices are not nearly as plentiful as what I'm hoping to see implimented.
It's a hell of a lot easier to create a new item in the database and apply an existing graphic, than it is to create new graphics for that new item. Every game reuses assets.
We will have databases full of this information logged in item values, groups, sets, percentages, level ranges etc. so we will know what items compete with others and in what areas and what level ranges etc. so it won't be a problem for us to track and monitor itemization balance for the most part if we log it all properly but /inspect will still be a thing as seeing someone's chest plate that you have never seen before will probably interest you and make you want to /inspect to find out its stats, especially if it is crafted and has maybe been upgraded and if that player has their /inspect turned on then awesome, peak away, if not you will have to strike up a conversation with them and ask nicely, which is what we want to happen, any chance to promote actual player interaction is only going to help the community and the game. :)
Kilsin said:We will have databases full of this information logged in item values, groups, sets, percentages, level ranges etc. so we will know what items compete with others and in what areas and what level ranges etc. so it won't be a problem for us to track and monitor itemization balance for the most part if we log it all properly but /inspect will still be a thing as seeing someone's chest plate that you have never seen before will probably interest you and make you want to /inspect to find out its stats, especially if it is crafted and has maybe been upgraded and if that player has their /inspect turned on then awesome, peak away, if not you will have to strike up a conversation with them and ask nicely, which is what we want to happen, any chance to promote actual player interaction is only going to help the community and the game. :)
Dont get me wrong. I'm fully onboard with there being an /inspect, and even more onboard with the social norm of asking before you use it. I just dont see it being likely that every gear item will have a unique graphic that sets it apart and everyone knowing what it is. From the socialization aspect, isnt "Pardon me, but what is that beautiful weapon you're weilding?" even more promting of interaction than, "Can I inspect?"
Feyshtey said:Kilsin said:We will have databases full of this information logged in item values, groups, sets, percentages, level ranges etc. so we will know what items compete with others and in what areas and what level ranges etc. so it won't be a problem for us to track and monitor itemization balance for the most part if we log it all properly but /inspect will still be a thing as seeing someone's chest plate that you have never seen before will probably interest you and make you want to /inspect to find out its stats, especially if it is crafted and has maybe been upgraded and if that player has their /inspect turned on then awesome, peak away, if not you will have to strike up a conversation with them and ask nicely, which is what we want to happen, any chance to promote actual player interaction is only going to help the community and the game. :)
Dont get me wrong. I'm fully onboard with there being an /inspect, and even more onboard with the social norm of asking before you use it. I just dont see it being likely that every gear item will have a unique graphic that sets it apart and everyone knowing what it is. From the socialization aspect, isnt "Pardon me, but what is that beautiful weapon you're weilding?" even more promting of interaction than, "Can I inspect?"
Absolutely and maybe we won't be able to make everything unique, we will certainly try but some maybe be variants of other items or copies with slightly different stats/graphics etc. but the point I was trying to make is that people in this thread seem to be on one side or the other and there is no need to take sides on a topic like this, it won't be a big issue if you can't see someone else's gear, it will either promote interaction or leave you wondering what it could be, if they have /inspect turned off, either way, it won't affect your gameplay or success completing a dungeon, if there is ever an issue it will be the minority and not a common issue, as I said, we had both /inspect and /anon in VG and it didn't change anything, it just promoted interaction if they had /anon on and you wanted to see what gear/weapons they had, usually they would be happy to talk to you and show their shiny stuff off but if they said no or didn't reply then so be it, you would carry on about your business without any issues. ;)
Liav said:I'm assuming that rings, earrings, necklaces, etc. won't be visible on player characters so it's entirely plausible that you won't get a complete picture of a person's gear just by looking at them. Food for thought.
Yes and I covered that in one of my posts above.
"Not being able to see little things like rings that give the smallest stat boost possible should never be the deciding factor in who gets a group position over someone else unless you are at the bleeding edge of high-end raiding and struggling on a progression target where every single % and point of stats and dps counts, that again will be the very small minority, not a general issue for everyone to worry about. :)"
Whether they are visible or not it doesn't really matter, we will have /inspect and probably a way to disable it for those who don't want to be inspected and it will have absolutely minimal impact on the game and everyone's gaming experience, it will promote interactions and spark conversations and it will not be as big of a problem as some people think.
Kilsin said:Liav said:I'm assuming that rings, earrings, necklaces, etc. won't be visible on player characters so it's entirely plausible that you won't get a complete picture of a person's gear just by looking at them. Food for thought.
Yes and I covered that in one of my posts above.
"Not being able to see little things like rings that give the smallest stat boost possible should never be the deciding factor in who gets a group position over someone else unless you are at the bleeding edge of high-end raiding and struggling on a progression target where every single % and point of stats and dps counts, that again will be the very small minority, not a general issue for everyone to worry about. :)"Whether they are visible or not it doesn't really matter, we will have /inspect and probably a way to disable it for those who don't want to be inspected and it will have absolutely minimal impact on the game and everyone's gaming experience, it will promote interactions and spark conversations and it will not be as big of a problem as some people think.
Somehow I missed that. Thanks.